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Subject: The next Megathread: Book of Mormon evidences
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moinmoinUser is Offline

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07/08/2008 8:46 PM Alert 

Moving on a bit more quickly, now that a bit of a foundation has been laid . . .

The Anthon Transcript

Joseph Smith reported retrieving the Book of Mormon plates and other items on September 22, 1827 from the stone box in the hilltop near Manchester, New York. Due to his family’s humble circumstances and opposition, nothing substantial could be done with them until December, when an older, well-to-do farmer named Martin Harris assisted him financially and took an interest in the work.

The excitement, however, still continued, and rumor with her thousand tongues was all the time employed in circulating falsehoods about my father's family, and about myself. If I were to relate a thousandth part of them, it would fill up volumes. The persecution, however, became so intolerable that I was under the necessity of leaving Manchester, and going with my wife to Susquehanna county, in the State of Pennsylvania. While preparing to start—being very poor, and the persecution so heavy upon us that there was no probability that we would ever be otherwise—in the midst of our afflictions we found a friend in a gentleman by the name of Martin Harris, who came to us and gave me fifty dollars to assist us on our journey. Mr. Harris was a resident of Palmyra township, Wayne county, in the State of New York, and a farmer of respectability. By this timely aid was I enabled to reach the place of my destination in Pennsylvania; and immediately after my arrival there I commenced copying the characters off the plates. I copied a considerable number of them, and by means of the Urim and Thummim I translated some of them, which I did between the time I arrived at the house of my wife's father, in the month of December, and the February following. (Joseph Smith History, 1838)
 

Martin Harris, while interested, was skeptical and had to deal with his wife’s anger towards his involvement with Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith, having nowhere near the money required to print the Book of Mormon, sent Harris with a copy of some characters from the plates to Professor Charles Anthon at Columbia. Harris reported upon returning

I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters. He gave me a certificate, certifying to the people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that the translation of such of them as had been translated was also correct. I took the certificate and put it into my pocket, and was just leaving the house, when Mr. Anthon called me back, and asked me how the young man found out that there were gold plates in the place where he found them. I answered that an angel of God had revealed it unto him."He then said to me, 'Let me see that certificate.' I accordingly took it out of my pocket and gave it to him, when he took it and tore it to pieces, saying that there was no such thing now as ministering of angels, and that if I would bring the plates to him he would translate them. I informed him that part of the plates were sealed, and that I was forbidden to bring them. He replied, 'I cannot read a sealed book.' I left him and went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said respecting both the characters and the translation.
 

Charles Anthon bitterly resented his unwitting role in what Mormons claim to be the fulfillment of Isaiah 29:12-14

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

and insisted that he had not confirmed the authenticity of the characters. In addition to Harris’ testimony (above), we know that Harris immediately returned home and mortgaged his farm to supply the $3,000 needed to print the 5,000 copies of the first edition of the Book of Mormon. This is strong circumstantial evidence that Harris left Anthon (of Columbia) and Mitchell (of Rutgers) with a favorable disposition towards the authenticity of the characters.

 

moinmoinUser is Offline

Posts:388


07/08/2008 8:58 PM Alert 

Here is the "Anthon transcript," or what Martin Harris took to Anthon and Mitchell.

It's pretty interesting to compare these, the only known facsimiles of the Book of Mormon's reformed Egyptian characters, with meroitic Egyptian, a shorthand of demotic, which was a shorthand of hieratic, which was a shorthand of pictographic hieroglyphic.

Am I claiming that Book of Mormon characters are meroitic? Of course not. Moroni, Mormon's son and the last Book of Mormon prophet who sealed up the record in the stone box in New York, wrote shortly before doing so:

"Behold, I speak unto you as though I spake from the dead; for I know that ye shall have my words. Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him . . . And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech . . . But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof." (Mormon 9:30-32, 34)

The Book of Mormon scribes took the concept of shorthand Egyptian from Lehi, the pioneering prophet who had knowledge of shorthand systems like demotic or meroitic through his trade with Egypt, and altered it so as to best fit their need to record by engraving on metal plates. 

moinmoinUser is Offline

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07/09/2008 9:28 AM Alert 

Hot off the presses at Baptist Press; relevant to our discussion here:

www.bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp

Al Mohler is President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Some excerpts . . .

----------------------

"All this raises the whole issue of archaeology and the Christian faith. Christians are understandably interested in the archaeology of the lands of the Bible. After all, ours is a faith that makes historical claims about persons and events with specific places, timing, and details provided in the text of the Bible . . . Authentic biblical Christianity stands on these events as events in history, not as cherished myths.

For this reason, Christians are too often overly excited about the latest "discovery" that gains media attention -- either in elation or travail. Archaeology is an important scholarly discipline, but it is not immune from ideology and many of the conclusions and arguments announced to the public are actually not at all what they first appear to be. Furthermore, archaeology is largely a matter of historical reconstruction, often with little actual evidence. As a rule, the more distant the time, the more difficult the reconstruction. That makes sense, of course, as time destroys both evidence and the preservation of memory.

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Christians were tempted to argue that the historical claims of the Bible (especially the Old Testament) had been "proved" by the intense proliferation of archaeological investigations that marked the period . . . Those Christians who were tempted to place too much confidence in archaeological discoveries (and too little in the Bible's own claims of inspiration and authority) were shaken by [these] "findings" and by similar accounts . . .

Archaeological findings are of great interest, of course. But the key issue is what kind of authority we invest in archaeology in terms of authenticating or disproving the text of the Bible. Christians err by accepting or investing too much evidentiary authority in archaeological "findings," whether considered to support or to question the biblical accounts.

Authentic Christianity is based upon the inscripturated revelation of God -- the Bible -- as our authority. In the end, archaeology cannot prove or disprove the biblical text. Nothing can be found, or not found, that should shake our faith in the total truthfulness and trustworthiness of the Word of God. Archaeology can expand our knowledge and understanding, but cannot establish the authority for our faith.

JasonYUser is Offline

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07/09/2008 9:58 AM Alert 
More crusades to follow..........

"Your village called.........they're missing their idiot"
RichTigUser is Offline

Posts:0

07/09/2008 11:05 AM Alert 

My god is just and and loving and a true inspiration in my life.  And if you don't believe in him, I will kill you.

JasonYUser is Offline

Posts:1874


07/09/2008 1:15 PM Alert 
Posted By RichTig on 07/09/2008 11:05 AM

My god is just and and loving and a true inspiration in my life.  And if you don't believe in him, I will kill you.

I wanna have your baby...........


"Your village called.........they're missing their idiot"
moinmoinUser is Offline

Posts:388


07/10/2008 6:13 PM Alert 

Those who don't believe Joseph Smith's explanation for the Book of Mormon's existence (that God led him to the plates and gave him the translation by revelation) must ascribe the text's origins to Joseph Smith or perhaps to associates of Joseph Smith. Looking at the Egyptian words in the text creates a problem for the "Joseph Smith & Co. wrote it" theory.

dsrt

One such word is translated as "deseret." Deseret was the first choice for the name of the territory colonized by fleeing Mormons in the intermountain west, but was denied by Congress. According to the Book of Mormon, "deseret" means "honeybee."

The word "dsrt" means "red" in Egyptian (as with Arabic, Hebrew, and other Semitic languages, Egyptian originally was written without vowels). It came by this meaning because of the red crown, or the crown of the Upper Kingdom (southern Nile). The red crown was closely linked with the honeybee, as evidenced by the trademark antenna that characterized the dsrt crown. Here is the earliest known representation of the dsrt crown, a raised design on baked clay on this pot shard:

Here are other examples of the dsrt crown, with its bee antenna:

Now, it's one thing to say, "Aw, he just got lucky with associating his made-up word 'deseret' with a honeybee." It is a striking "hit," though, isn't it?

 

 

moinmoinUser is Offline

Posts:388


07/14/2008 10:08 AM Alert 
Two questions for skeptics about the Book of Mormon people and places actually existing:

1. If they did really exist (if only for the sake of argument), what would evidence of their existence look like? How would this differ from physical remains we already know about in Mesoamerica?

2. What are your thoughts about Alber Mohler's (President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) comments on recent archaeological difficulties for the Bible?

www.bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp

Some excerpts:
"All this raises the whole issue of archaeology and the Christian faith. Christians are understandably interested in the archaeology of the lands of the Bible. After all, ours is a faith that makes historical claims about persons and events with specific places, timing, and details provided in the text of the Bible . . . Authentic biblical Christianity stands on these events as events in history, not as cherished myths.

For this reason, Christians are too often overly excited about the latest "discovery" that gains media attention -- either in elation or travail. Archaeology is an important scholarly discipline, but it is not immune from ideology and many of the conclusions and arguments announced to the public are actually not at all what they first appear to be. Furthermore, archaeology is largely a matter of historical reconstruction, often with little actual evidence. As a rule, the more distant the time, the more difficult the reconstruction. That makes sense, of course, as time destroys both evidence and the preservation of memory.

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Christians were tempted to argue that the historical claims of the Bible (especially the Old Testament) had been "proved" by the intense proliferation of archaeological investigations that marked the period . . . Those Christians who were tempted to place too much confidence in archaeological discoveries (and too little in the Bible's own claims of inspiration and authority) were shaken by [these] "findings" and by similar accounts . . .

Archaeological findings are of great interest, of course. But the key issue is what kind of authority we invest in archaeology in terms of authenticating or disproving the text of the Bible. Christians err by accepting or investing too much evidentiary authority in archaeological "findings," whether considered to support or to question the biblical accounts.

Authentic Christianity is based upon the inscripturated revelation of God -- the Bible -- as our authority. In the end, archaeology cannot prove or disprove the biblical text. Nothing can be found, or not found, that should shake our faith in the total truthfulness and trustworthiness of the Word of God. Archaeology can expand our knowledge and understanding, but cannot establish the authority for our faith.
Thanks!
JasonYUser is Offline

Posts:1874


07/14/2008 12:40 PM Alert 

Moin moin is a West African dish consisting of black-eyed peas or other beans prepared as a savory bean pudding. It is a protein-rich food that is a staple in Nigeria. Moin moin is prepared by first soaking the beans in water until they are soft enough to remove the fine outer covering or peel. Then they are ground or blended (using a blender) until they are as liquid as possible. Salt, palm oil or (any edible oil) and other seasonings are added to taste. Some add sardines, corned-beef, sliced boiled eggs, or a combination of these and other 'garnishes' to liven up moin moin. Such is referred to as having 'x' number of lives, 'x' representing the number of garnishes added. The most touted is "moin moin elemi meje", which translates to moin moin with 7 lives.

Moin moin usually comes in a slanted pyramid shape or a cylindrical shape, owing to the mold it is poured into prior to cooking. The pyramid shape comes from the traditional broad leaves that are fashioned into a cone in one's palm, then the seasoned and garnished liquid is poured into the leaves, which is then folded. The cylindrical shapes come from empty cans of tomato sauce used in preparation of other dishes. Once placed in its mold, it is placed in a large pot about a tenth filled with water. The water is the source of steam that cooks the moin moin. Moin moin is eaten alone or with bread as a snack, with rice as a meal or with ogi (corn or millet porridge) for breakfast or supper.


"Your village called.........they're missing their idiot"
moinmoinUser is Offline

Posts:388


07/14/2008 1:05 PM Alert 
I didn't know that one. Thanks, JasonY! The intenet is an amazing thing.

It's also a north German/Danish all purpose greeting (hence the picture of my old door mat, long since worn out. I served as a Mormon missionary in northern Germany from 1994-1996).

Any thoughts about the actual topic, JasonY? No need to post something like "Vishnu loves you!" Any actual contributions to the topic?

Thanks!
JasonYUser is Offline

Posts:1874


07/14/2008 3:05 PM Alert 
I haven't read the Book of Mormon so I couldn't honestly debate parts of it, wouldn't be fair to Mormons. I have met and talked to several Mormons before, and could discuss viewpoints. Hell is real, whether or not it is an actual place or a state of mind who knows. It has called by several different names. Earth is probably a purgatory of sorts. I know all monotheist religions are talking about the same God, though they would argue otherwise. I would hestitate to call certain modern day figures as prophets, for the Bible says to be aware of false prophets. Jesus was supposed to be the last prophet, since his life was the fulfillment of scripture and prophesy.

"Your village called.........they're missing their idiot"
moinmoinUser is Offline

Posts:388


07/15/2008 6:55 AM Alert 
I can get you a copy of the Book of Mormon, if you're interested Jason. The same goes for anyone in the forum who is curious and wants to see first-hand what all the commotion is about.

Anyone who would like one can PM me and I'll see that you get a copy.
moinmoinUser is Offline

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07/15/2008 7:41 AM Alert 

The NHM altarsThe first book in the Book of Mormon records the call of Lehi, a wealthy merchant, as a prophet in the first year of the reign of Zedekiah. Lehi is commanded to prophesy the fall of Jerusalem at the hand of the Babylonians, and God commands him to take his family and another family and flee into the wilderness. During their eight year journey to the east coast of the Arabian peninsula, the party named many places along the way (the land Bountiful, the valley of Lemuel, the river of Laman, etc.). Conspicuously, though, the Book of Mormon records (using the passive voice) that "Ishmael died, and was buried in the place which was called Nahom." The current (1981) edition of the Book of Mormon notes in a footnote that the name Nahom comes from the Hebrew verb "naham," meaning "be sorry, console oneself."

In 1999, German archaeologists uncovered a temple and three altars in the precise location of "Nahom," according to directions given in the Book of Mormon. The site was entirely buried by sand. Inscriptions on the altars in Sabean clearly indicate that the place was called "NHM" (like early Semitic languages, such as Arabic and Hebrew, vowels were absent), and the German archaeologists referred to the site as Nihm. The archaeologists date the site to the sixth century B.C., closely corresponding to the time of Lehi's party's travel.

A pretty remarkable direct hit from a young semi-literate farmer in upstate New York in the 1820's, isn't it?

 

RichTigUser is Offline

Posts:0

07/15/2008 9:43 AM Alert 
Posted By moinmoin on 07/15/2008 6:55 AM
I can get you a copy of the Book of Mormon, if you're interested Jason. The same goes for anyone in the forum who is curious and wants to see first-hand what all the commotion is about.

Anyone who would like one can PM me and I'll see that you get a copy.

 

 

Thanks, but I prefer non-fiction.

moinmoinUser is Offline

Posts:388


07/15/2008 12:07 PM Alert 
In writing his fiction, RichTig, how do you think he correctly used at the time unknown details like Egyptian words or ancient Arabian geography?
RichTigUser is Offline

Posts:0

07/15/2008 1:11 PM Alert 

Hoax.  There have been religious hoaxes throughout the ages.  The Shroud of Turin is just one example of intricate and well done hoaxes.

itsadryheatUser is Offline

Posts:228

07/15/2008 2:17 PM Alert 
I can get you a copy of the Book of Mormon, if you're interested Jason. The same goes for anyone in the forum who is curious and wants to see first-hand what all the commotion is about.

Anyone who would like one can PM me and I'll see that you get a copy.


all you need is a Bible. If you want a copy of THAT let me know. To anyone contemplating whether to read the Book of Mormon, I will scream from the roof tops, "Don't do it!" The Bible is all you need for salvation.
JasonYUser is Offline

Posts:1874


07/15/2008 3:32 PM Alert 
Jesus is all you need for salvation......

There are many different versions of the Bible also.....

"Your village called.........they're missing their idiot"
qwertyUser is Offline

Posts:135


07/15/2008 3:42 PM Alert 
To anyone contemplating whether to read the Book of Mormon, I will scream from the roof tops, "Don't do it!" The Bible is all you need for salvation.


*sarcasm* Yeah, careful. There are some hidden subliminal messages that even if you look at it you will be deceived */sarcasm*. :-).

Read it and ask God if it's true. Same and only way you could know that the Bible is true as well. Both are true!
JasonYUser is Offline

Posts:1874


07/15/2008 3:48 PM Alert 
I want to read the Koran and the Abhidharma Pitaka........see what all the fuss is about.....

The words of Jesus himself in the Gospels is the truth and all you really need, everything else is up for discussion.........

"Your village called.........they're missing their idiot"
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