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| | Author | Messages | |
qwerty
Posts:139


 | | 05/19/2008 7:55 PM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 05/19/2008 7:28 PM Posted By qwerty on 05/19/2008 7:19 PM The first heaven is the earth's atmosphere(Gen 8:2, Dt 11:11, 1Ki 8:35)
I read these verses and they say nothing of a First heaven, so that is your interpretation. The Second Heaven is the interplanetary and interstellar space (Ge 15:5, Ps 8:3, Is 13:10)
I read these verses and they say nothing of a Second heaven, so that is your interpretation. The Third Heaven is the abod of God (1 Ki 8:30, 2Ch 30,27,Ps 123:1)
I read these verses and they say nothing of a Third heaven, so that is your interpretation.
I'm not saying that your interpretation is unsound, but it's still interpretation. LOL, I love Mormons, I really do. All three layers were referenced as heaven. So now the Mormons should have like 5 heavens  Better chance of staying out of hell right? LOL. j/k. I applaud your knowledge of the bible and obvious dedication to God. You should at least make it to the second heaven...LOL...I'm totally kidding there too! Gotta throw in a little humor in these discussions sometimes. All three layers were referenced as heaven. What if all three are really just one like the Trinity? Just another interpretation.  | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374


 | | 05/19/2008 8:04 PM |
Alert | Posted By qwerty on 05/19/2008 7:55 PM Better chance of staying out of hell right? LOL. j/k. I applaud your knowledge of the bible and obvious dedication to God. You should at least make it to the second heaven...LOL...I'm totally kidding there too! Gotta throw in a little humor in these discussions sometimes. LOL, I agree I'm all for humor. I'm sure if we were all in a room discussing these topics, it would sound a lot friendlier then it probably looks. Actually I had to travel to Salt Lake City for work 2 years ago, and I had a few conversations with some LDS members there, and they all said they believed I would be in the 2nd heaven because I follow Jesus even though I deny Joseph Smith. They said it was impossible for me to go to the 3rd heaven denying Joseph Smith. I just thought that was interesting as your comment brought back that moment I had with them. | | Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/ But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/ The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/ to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:233

 | | 05/19/2008 8:33 PM |
Alert | I myself - feel it would make sense that Christ was married. I believe this, because He is our example in all things. We believe He was baptized in order to BE the example. With this reasoning it would also make sense that He would be married. HOWEVER - as I stated - this is NOT doctrine, and if the prophet stood up one day and announced Christ was never married - I would believe it.
I don't even know what to say to this.
Why does the prophet have to say it to you for you to believe it? Read it for yourself. First, we have marriage because God instituted it. Second, Jesus wasn't married because while he was human like we are, he was about his father's business and not his own business...not sure this thought ever crossed his mind. Third, like Paul says, if we can be celibate (like him) then we should be. But, if we cannot, then we should be married so that we do not sin.
My question: Where in the Bible does it mention a first or second heaven? How do you get to the third, without mention of the first and second? | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413


 | | 05/19/2008 10:11 PM |
Alert | Posted By itsadryheat on 05/19/2008 6:20 PM
Can anything be simple with you? -LOL! Are you kidding me with these answers?? I have no response right now because I am probably going to have to read them a few times just to sort them out. Gosh, the Bible is so much simpler. This illustrates an important point. It is very easy to make allegations, and this generally takes very little time and space. Answering allegations by its very nature takes much more time and space (background, context, implications, etc.), and this can at times be an initial disadvantage, because we are living in an increasingly less literate world. Brief allegations still fit within people's shrinking attention spans, but lengthy refutations less and less so. Mormons almost exclusively answer and refute rather than make allegations. That's a good thing, I think, because it translates into interest and curiosity that afford opportunity to share the gospel. Honest, I'm painfully aware that I post walls of quotes and exposition that are probably a deterent for most. But, the details are there for those who are interested and will take the time to read. Note: I'm writing a book about Journal of Discourses, so my spidey senses tingle when critics use the old shopworn chestnuts from it. This also means, though, that I can tend to give more detail than was needed. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413


 | | 05/19/2008 10:18 PM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 05/19/2008 7:32 PM I also love qwerty's avatar, it's always been one of my favorites on here. Looks so cool. What, no love for moinmoin's first avatar, only a couple of days old?  "Moin, moin" is a far north all purpose German greeting (all times of day, all situations). Outside of the most northern state bordering on Denmark (Schleswig-Holstein), Germans themselves don't hear or use it. A member of this forum who's from Denmark PM'd me wondering if I was Danish; apparently, "mojn, mojn" is a Danish greeting. The picture is a doormat I brought home from my mission, long since worn out. The "moin, moin" area was my first area as a missionary. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413


 | | 05/19/2008 10:44 PM |
Alert | Posted By itsadryheat on 05/19/2008 8:33 PM Jesus wasn't married because while he was human like we are, he was about his father's business and not his own business...not sure this thought ever crossed his mind. Mormons have different views on whether Jesus was married, and that's okay, because it's not an essential doctrine either way (Brigham Young and his contemporaries' views in the affirmative notwithstanding). What I find interesting is the knee-jerk reaction most believers have with the very thought. Would Jesus being married somehow have "tainted" Him or made Him unworthy to bring about the atonement? Why? Isn't this kind of a prudish thought? We know nothing of the years between when He taught the elders in the temple as a teenager and when He began His ministry at about the age of thirty. I've often wondered if being single was nearly as optional back then, or if being unmarried into one's thirties would have prevented many people from taking Him seriously or respecting Him. Then, there's the fact that He appeared as the Risen Lord first, not to Peter, His chief apostle, but to Mary Magdalene. Proof? No. It is interesting, though. It is yet another pesky anti-trinity proof-text, though . . . "Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." ---John 20:16-17 My question: Where in the Bible does it mention a first or second heaven? How do you get to the third, without mention of the first and second? You'd have to ask Paul. He's the one who mentions a third heaven, in this case apparently without mentioning a first or second. He's also the one who discusses different levels of bodies and glory, and he uses three levels of glory (sun, moon, stars). My interpretation is that Paul had a precedent for mentioning the third heaven to the Corinthians in his second letter to them, but then I believe that Joseph Smith was given a detailed vision of the afterlife that clarifies these New Testament fragments that we have, and which expands and builds on Paul's foundation. | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:233

 | | 05/20/2008 5:59 AM |
Alert | It is very easy to make allegations, and this generally takes very little time and space.
I don't see that we are making allegations, just bringing up Biblical points re: these issues.Then, there's the fact that He appeared as the Risen Lord first, not to Peter, His chief apostle, but to Mary Magdalene. I think it was the women's duty to attend to grave sites after burial. Much like we might bring flowers following the death of a loved one, the women brought spices, as a sign of love and respect I would imagaine. That's what Luke says...Luke being a medical doctor might know about these things. Matthew is a bit more specific in his account, naming Mary Magdalene and other women. Mark and John both say Mary Magdalene, the woman he had cast out seven demons from. But commentary in John says that other women were also there and that we need to look at the other gospels. You say that it doesn't matter whether Jesus was married or not because its not part of your essential doctrine. The Bible doesn't say that He was married and the Bible gives us all the information we need to know to live our lives. You'd have to ask Paul. He's the one who mentions a third heaven, in this case apparently without mentioning a first or second. He's also the one who discusses different levels of bodies and glory, and he uses three levels of glory (sun, moon, stars). My interpretation is that Paul had a precedent for mentioning the third heaven to the Corinthians in his second letter to them, but then I believe that Joseph Smith was given a detailed vision of the afterlife that clarifies these New Testament fragments that we have, and which expands and builds on Paul's foundation. I guess if God, through Paul was so clear about a "third" heaven as you say, then He would have been equally clear about a first and second as well. How does one get into the third heaven? | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374


 | | 05/20/2008 7:35 AM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 05/19/2008 10:18 PM Posted By EEE on 05/19/2008 7:32 PM I also love qwerty's avatar, it's always been one of my favorites on here. Looks so cool. What, no love for moinmoin's first avatar, only a couple of days old?  "Moin, moin" is a far north all purpose German greeting (all times of day, all situations). Outside of the most northern state bordering on Denmark (Schleswig-Holstein), Germans themselves don't hear or use it. A member of this forum who's from Denmark PM'd me wondering if I was Danish; apparently, "mojn, mojn" is a Danish greeting. The picture is a doormat I brought home from my mission, long since worn out. The "moin, moin" area was my first area as a missionary.
LOL, maybe interesting, but it's still a door mat and lacks the coolnest factor like qwerty's avatar.  | | Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/ But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/ The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/ to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486

 | | 05/20/2008 9:07 AM |
Alert | Please excuse me for not using quotes for clarification.
My comment concerning believing Christ is single when the prophet says He is single, was intended to be in reference to revelation. If that information comes, it will be through revelation, through the prophet. I have a testimony that the prophet IS a prophet, therefore, the words he states as revelation are what I will strive to live by.
THAT is why when he talks - I listen.
Also, I see that my words have led everyone to think I have a belief that Christ was married. I will admit I like the idea, but I am not to the point of saying I BELIEVE it. I am content to say I don't know, but that maybe He was.
Christ being married, as stated is not essential information for anyone to know. But for many people it is a discussion just as interesting as whether or not Adam had a belly button. In the case of Christ being married, we have no reference to it ANYWHERE - not in the Bible, Book of Mormon, etc - it isn't there, so the guessing goes on.
The point of my post was to say it is NOT doctrinal. Trying to debate serves no purpose because there is NOT a doctrinal basis to the idea - anywhere.
In regards to the 1st and 2nd being mentioned by Paul: In 1 Corinthians 15 - which has already been mentioned. . . . and thrown off as being discriptions of the stars,
Terrestial bodies is mentioned. . . . which would be the 2nd kingdom that you asked about.
We believe a portion of vs 40 was left out, and JST corrects it, readmitting the telestial bodies.
Obviously, you are not going to buy into this. Just the same, I LOVE this chapter of Corinthians. It truly has a lot to say. Here Paul is talking about how resurrection IS going to happen, and how everyone should believe it. He uses examples of why people should believe it, THEN he describes the resurrected bodies.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory
He talks about flesh being different. Then in a similar way that things are explained to those with no knowledge of a subject, he relates it to the glories. THEN he goes on and explains the differences between them - using the sun, moon and stars (which are considered 'glorious') to explain further.
So, we have different kinds of flesh, the beast, man, the foul, the fish are given as examples. None are the same, and yet they are all flesh. There are also celestial bodies, terrestrial bodies, and (JST) telestial bodies. The 1st mentioned is like the sun, the 2nd is like the moon, and the 3rd is like the stars. . . .
That is the belief!
Now, what do you believe the reward(s) is talked about in the Bible?
I'm still studying this myself. . . so it is not a trick question.
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| | RichTig
Posts:0

 | | 05/20/2008 12:33 PM |
Alert | Perhaps the truth isn't in the middle. Perhaps one side is just wrong. | | | |
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| | ChimneyDuck
Posts:230

 | | 05/20/2008 2:18 PM |
Alert | | Or perhaps both sides are just wrong. | | http://www.maricopabikeclub.com - Join us for a bicycle ride. | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:233

 | | 05/21/2008 5:52 PM |
Alert | | It seems to me that the Bible is the foundation of what God has to say to man. When there is a contradiction between what the Bible teaches and what the Book of Mormon or other Mormon books teach, the Bible trumps the Book of Mormon and other books and must be given preeminence. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413


 | | 05/22/2008 8:21 AM |
Alert | Can you name any "contradictions" between anything in the Book of Mormon and the Bible?
I think the sort of things you may have in mind are in other LDS scripture besides the Book of Mormon. Professional anti-Mormon critics (i.e., those whose livelihood consists of attacking the Church) have long complained that Joseph Smith's later scriptures and teachings departed from the very biblical Book of Mormon (biblical other than its existence as extra-biblical scripture). These critics see trinitarian doctrine, orthodox heaven/hell, etc. in the Book of Mormon and regard later teachings such as the three kingdoms of glory and Godhead as departures and innovations beyond the simple Book of Mormon.
I am curious what contradictions you think there are between the Bible and the Book of Mormon. | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486

 | | 05/22/2008 8:43 AM |
Alert | There are only contradictions if you do not allow yourself to see the other interpretations that are possible to the Bible. If you allow the other scriptures to clarify - instead of expecting them to agree with your understanding, you will find there is no contradiction.
I recently used this example:
Contradiction:
"People wearing blue are good" "People wearing blue are bad"
Clarification:
"People wearing blue are good" "People wearing blue make mistakes"
If you are only willing to believe people who make mistakes are BAD then you will always feel there is a contradiction. However, if you can look at the statements and realize just because a person makes mistakes doesn't mean they are bad, then there is a clarification. Suddenly, people wearing blue are good people who make mistakes.
I recently found myself in an online conversation where someone was wanting to discuss the 'contradictions'. I was surprised, when the 'contradiction' they were wanting to discuss was on Adam and Eve. I'm still new to these types of discussions - so if this isn't different - then I was unaware of the normalicy of the conversation.
What I found was an unwillingness to admit, IF she would think 'outside the box' and allow her interpretation of the Bible to be set aside (not to change her belief, but to set it aside and read the story as if she had never read it before) that the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price COULD be considered complimentary. She had the thought stuck in her mind so much that it could only work HER way, that she couldn't see the possiblity that it could work another.
I find it interesting. I listen and think about the different meanings people believe scriptures to mean. I can actually SEE where they are coming from and why they think that way, yet when I suggest someone just look and see if when they read the clarifications that the Book of Mormon, etc adds if they can see WHY we believe what we do, I get told they contradict.
I suppose it makes me wonder, why can't a person understand and see why we don't see contradictions - w/o believing we are right? Is saying you see where the thinking comes from too much of an admition it might BE scripture?
You know how a wife listen to her friend gossip about her husband and the story is all about how he had messed up, but then the husband talks to HIM, gets a few more pieces of the story and suddenly there is more information and the story appears to change. Suddenly the couple has all the information and the interpretation is different. Does that make the husband's story contradictory? Or does it give the couple a better understanding of what really happened?
Now, if you decided that the husband was a lying then you could decide his side of the story meant nothing, but you can hardly say it is contradictory - it simply isn't true.
To me, there is a WORLD of difference between saying you do not believe the Book of Mormon to be God's word, and saying it is contradictory. One I can accept as your belief, the other becomes much more difficult to swallow.
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:233

 | | 05/22/2008 3:45 PM |
Alert | | This whole discussion is ripe with contradictions between the Bible and the Book or Mormon and other Mormon books, if you can't see that then there is a problem. Contradictions: God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Trinity, Mary, salvation, heaven to name a few. If you say that you are Christians then the first place you turn to to understand the Truth is you go to the Bible. Its the difinitive work of God. This doesn't have anything to do with making mistakes. Why use another book when God has given His book. It has been proven accurate historically. People, places, things...all can be verified and anthropolgists have been able to find physical remains of these truths. Why don't you go and look at some of the contradictions found in the Book of Mormon. You want a good resource, try the DVD the Bible vs the Book of Mormon, or the DVD Jesus Christ Joseph Smith. LDS say they are Christians and so this should be not a problem to do so. I've got them and would gladly burn you a copy. You can also go online to www.lvhm.org or http://www.goodnewsforlds.org/ to watch them yourselves. Why not see if there were any truth to what has been said? But, I know you won't. You would rather pin everyone as anti-Mormon and apostates, than just look to see if there is any truth to what has been said. And I do say the Book of Mormon is contradictory, as are the other books. NONE of what those books say can even an inkling be found in the Bible. And I stand behind my statement, the Bible trumps any other book. | | | |
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| | qwerty
Posts:139


 | | 05/22/2008 4:19 PM |
Alert | edit----that didn't sounds right :-) I'll review the sites you listed if you review this one:
http://fairlds.org/ | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486

 | | 05/22/2008 5:34 PM |
Alert | "This doesn't have anything to do with making mistakes."
No, it doesn't. That was simply an example of the difference between contradictory and complimentary. I believe many people appear to get the two confused in these conversations.
"NONE of what those books say can even an inkling be found in the Bible."
This is a strong statement. All of them teach of Love, Charity, Pride, Obedience,etc. To say none of what is taught in them can be found in the Bible is a very general statement. Have you READ them?
I don't know that you or anyone else on this board is anti-mormon, I don't know if you are an apostate because I don't know whether or not you have ever been a member of the LDS church. Which, again, I will point out - this word is NOT a negative. I don't know where you have gotten your information, or what you consider to be a good source or a bad source. I do know about the only thing we [LDS members] are doing here, is trying to clear up the rumors and inconsistencies that continue to abound concerning our belief. One of the biggest ones being that the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price are somehow contradictory to the Bible.
As I said before, they are only contradictory if you do not allow for the Bible to be interpreted differently. I suspect MS Christians interpret passages differently as well.
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| | EEE
Posts:374


 | | 05/22/2008 5:55 PM |
Alert | 
| | Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/ But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/ The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/ to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486

 | | | itsadryheat
Posts:233

 | | 05/22/2008 6:57 PM |
Alert | I know what apostate means and I meant it the way it sounded. LDS don't like people who have left the church and are telling other people about their stories and their conversion to Christianity. If people leave the Christian church, I don't know that we give them a term like apostate. We just pray for them. And the Holy Spirit does the rest. If the Holy Spirit isn't in your church then I would imagine that doesn't happen.
I will review website. Was there something specifically you wanted me to see there? Anti-Mormon attacks usually repeat the same tired arguments over and over again. Despite the fact that virtually all the attacks and questions have been answered decades ago I did find this statement interesting. If the questions had been answered and proven decades ago, then there would be nothing to discuss. But apparently, these arguments have not been answered decades ago. LDS leaving the church have asked the questions and found the answers wanting. I also don't know that I can accept the "proof" when I don't accept the books used to do the proving. | | | |
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