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| | Author | Messages | |
CliffinAZ
Posts:399

 | | 02/27/2008 11:42 PM |
Alert | Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/27/2008 5:50 AM
Paul Bell in Mensa Magazine, 2002, reviewed all studies taken of religion and IQ. He concluded
of 43 studies carried out since 1927 on the relationship between religious belief and one's intelligence and/or educational level, all but four found an inverse connection. That is, the higher one's intelligence or education level, the less one is likely to be religious or hold "beliefs" of any kind.
Sociologist Zena Blau of the University of Houston recently conducted a study of more than a thousand children in Chicago. [...] In 1981 Blau reported that IQs were lowest among children whose mothers have overly strict religious beliefs. Children whose mothers were from a non-denominational or non-religious background had the highest average IQs - 110 for whites, 109 for blacks. Children whose mothers belonged to "fundamentalist" religious groups tended to have IQs that were 7 to 10 points lower. According to Blau, these religion-IQ differences hold even when you take into account the mother's social class, current occupational status, and education.
For this study, --I'd be interested to know if statistical analysis was used to combine the data (a meta-analysis). It looks like there is some sort of correlation, assuming that sound statstical methodology was used to combine the results. I'd be interested in further looking at the methodology for this one.
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81

 | | 02/28/2008 8:12 PM |
Alert | Posted By CliffinAZ on 02/27/2008 11:32 PM Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/26/2008 5:48 PM
Cliff, I didn't read your entire post because it was too long and it started out with "who has a PhD".
I didn't do the study, but it was done. If you want to seek answers yourself then you follow up on the study. Doubt any of you will do that for obvious reasons. I don't think it was done to slander on religion. I only brought it up to show the scare crow how Huckabees could win WV.
The fact is that you posted the study to support a point you wanted to prove. Therefore the responsibility to know whether or not the methodology of that study supports your point lies on your shoulders, and not ours. What are the "obvious reasons" anyway? Did you simply assume that both of us are "too religious" to actually look at the study objectively? If that's the case I hate to shatter your argument, but I'm actually very much an agnostic as opposed to a "believer." I was actually one of the adamant voices on this forum against prayer during city council meetings (particularly towards a particular denomination).
However, I'm also someone who gets his hackles up when one person makes a quite valid argument based purely on scientific method (as Jason did, which is obvious to anyone with a working understanding of scientific method), and the other person says "actually your arguments are not scientific, and if you want to know whether the study I just posted involves sound methodology, look it up yourself because I don't want to bother, and didn't bother to look at whether the study's methodology supports my arguments before posting it as fact." Frankly, it's pretty ironic that you are so adamant about science over religion given your complete disregard of scientific method here--and the fact that you seem to lack even a basic understanding of what it entails. That's not a scientific attitude; it's blind faith towards anything labeled 'science'--whether it is sound or not.
Why you're confusing an obvious survey w/ scientific method is beyond me. Yes I support science, but that has nothing to do with this.
For your information, and Flanders and the Scare Crow, the graph was generated from a 1990 population concensus. Not too scientific, but accurate non the less. | | | |
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| | CliffinAZ
Posts:399

 | | 03/02/2008 8:28 PM |
Alert | "Confusing an obvious survey with scientific method?" Whoa--so now you are saying that scientific research methodology doesn't apply to survey design??? This is demonstrating a clear lack of knowledge about either, as anyone who has ever taken a single course in/read a single book about research methdology could tell you (not to mention those of us who have studied it more extensively as part of a scientific degree and design surveys as part of our profession...). Surveys are a scientific research tool for data collection, and there is an entire field of survey design and implementation that gets into the science behind creating surveys (e.g., sampling strategies, use of different types of response scales, designing the questions themselves in a non-biased manner, equivalence/non-equivalance of questions and response scales across different cultures, response collection methods, etc.). In fact, I can almost guarantee that you won't be able to find a textbook on research design within any of the social sciences (e.g., psychology, sociology) that doesn't include considerable discussion of survey design, as surveys are a common research tool in those sciences. Sorry for the lecture, but surveys have everything to do with scientific research methdology! To say that the two are unrelated is to lack a fundamental understanding of either. If you do not see how a survey can be scientific, then you lack the understanding of how to differentiate between a survey that is well designed and executed and one that is not (i.e., good data and conclusions versus garbage-in, garbage-out). | | | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81

 | | 03/03/2008 5:49 PM |
Alert | Posted By CliffinAZ on 03/02/2008 8:28 PM "Confusing an obvious survey with scientific method?" Whoa--so now you are saying that scientific research methodology doesn't apply to survey design??? This is demonstrating a clear lack of knowledge about either, as anyone who has ever taken a single course in/read a single book about research methdology could tell you (not to mention those of us who have studied it more extensively as part of a scientific degree and design surveys as part of our profession...). Surveys are a scientific research tool for data collection, and there is an entire field of survey design and implementation that gets into the science behind creating surveys (e.g., sampling strategies, use of different types of response scales, designing the questions themselves in a non-biased manner, equivalence/non-equivalance of questions and response scales across different cultures, response collection methods, etc.). In fact, I can almost guarantee that you won't be able to find a textbook on research design within any of the social sciences (e.g., psychology, sociology) that doesn't include considerable discussion of survey design, as surveys are a common research tool in those sciences. Sorry for the lecture, but surveys have everything to do with scientific research methdology! To say that the two are unrelated is to lack a fundamental understanding of either. If you do not see how a survey can be scientific, then you lack the understanding of how to differentiate between a survey that is well designed and executed and one that is not (i.e., good data and conclusions versus garbage-in, garbage-out).
I guess I should have made myself clearer. Surveys are hardly found or necessary in hard sciences (physics, chemistry), but in the pseudo-sciences (psychology, sociology) they probably are used more often. My error, I thought we had the same definition of science. | | | |
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| | ChimneyDuck
Posts:185

 | | 03/03/2008 7:07 PM |
Alert | Statistics is science. Say you got 10,000,000,000 bacteria and you want to find out what kinds you have. Do you look at each of the 10,000,000,000 to find out what the predominate kind is, or do you do sampling?
Many experiments in physics and chemistry use statistics to determine how many data points you would need to reach a certain prediction within a certain margin of error.
--- And btw, People who dont know how to use the forum quotes should use the old fashioned " instead of the block. . . and when a nested block is more than two it gets very annoying. | |
http://www.maricopabikeclub.com - Join us for a bicycle ride. | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81

 | | 03/03/2008 8:11 PM |
Alert | Posted By ChimneyDuck on 03/03/2008 7:07 PM
Statistics is science. Say you got 10,000,000,000 bacteria and you want to find out what kinds you have. Do you look at each of the 10,000,000,000 to find out what the predominate kind is, or do you do sampling? Never said stats weren't a part of science. There are numerous tests you can do to determine what you're working with, unfortunately gram staining is the only one I remember (been awhile) Just wondering, have you ever worked with bacteria or are you just throwing this out there?
Many experiments in physics and chemistry use statistics to determine how many data points you would need to reach a certain prediction within a certain margin of error.
you talking about standard deviations, means, meads, calibrations, standard aditions...etc...?
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And btw, People who dont know how to use the forum quotes should use the old fashioned " instead of the block. . . and when a nested block is more than two it gets very annoying. | | | |
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| | CliffinAZ
Posts:399

 | | 03/03/2008 8:38 PM |
Alert |
I guess I should have made myself clearer. Surveys are hardly found or necessary in hard sciences (physics, chemistry), but in the pseudo-sciences (psychology, sociology) they probably are used more often. My error, I thought we had the same definition of science.
By referring to all of the social sciences as 'pseudo sciences', and not recognizing any of the forms of measurement being used in those sciences as scientific, you are again showing a fundamental misunderstanding of both the meaning and methodology of science--as well as displaying an attitude that is completely at odds with those who actually practice the hard sciences (some of whom also practice the behavioral sciences, by the way). The fact of the matter is that the statistical techniques and research designs used in the hard sciences are also used in social sciences. In fact, when you get down to the level of a molecule or a cell, the actual research designs are all very basic, because none of the more complex ones are necessary (because a molecule of oxygen is the same as any other molecule of oxygen, and the researcher generally has complete control over what he is manipulating--unlike the case when you are studying, say, behavior of people or groups). So I can read, for example, a medical journal and be entirely familiar with any of the actual statistical techniques or research designs--they are all used in my own field. BTW, gram staining is a method of differentiating between types of bacteria based on their properties. It is neither a statistical technique nor a research design. In and of itself, it is not a means of ensuring representative sampling. You bringing it up as such once again points out your lack of familiarity with the basic concepts around statistical methods/design.
But the larger point here is that if you are collecting data about ANYTHING, whether it be a cell, a disease, a behavior, or a population of people, it should be done in a scientific manner if you expect to be able to draw valid conclusions about it. I'd think that this would be fairly obvious to anyone, but apparently you disagree with this, and don't think that scientific method applies once you study anything larger than a cell. So I guess we don't have the same definition of science--mine is the conventionally accepted one, based on a fundamental understanding of scientific method, and yours isn't. | | | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81

 | | 03/04/2008 8:21 PM |
Alert | | cliff, please stop trying to pass off your pseudo-science as real science. It's not. I know in your textbooks they said it is, but it's not. | | | |
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| | CliffinAZ
Posts:399

 | | 03/05/2008 1:12 AM |
Alert | 8Days, please stop trying to paint yourself as someone with knowledge of science, when it is clear to anyone reading this thread that you do not even know what scientific method is. This is simply trying to pass off sheer ignorance (and a very pseudo-scientific attitude) as science. At this point you are clearly too uneducated in this area to even present a rational argument beyond empty rhetoric. Learn what scientific method is. | | | |
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| | CliffinAZ
Posts:399

 | | 03/05/2008 1:57 AM |
Alert | In terms of my profession, you do not even know what it is, so I'll educate you there. It's Industrial/Organizational Psychology. If you believe it is a 'pseudo science,' then your views are at odds with those of practitioners of the hard sciences (including those in all of the major pharmecutical companies employing many of us), as well as the US army, which has relied on us since World War I to develop every single one of their employment/selection tests, as do police departments, fire departments, public utilities, and nuclear power plants, to name a few. But I guess that 8DaysDazed, being the limitless fount of wisdom that he is, knows more than every one of the major pharmaceutical companies and nuclear power plants about what is scientific and what is not... | | | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81

 | | 03/06/2008 5:44 PM |
Alert | How did I know you were a psychologist?
As for me I have a major and minor in the hard sciences I previously mentioned. Not too many surveys in those classed, but plenty of real scientific method and real science done.
Save me your value proposition. Maybe the people who employ psychologists like yourself are doing real science, but that doesn't mean you are doing real science.
by the way, I believe I'm a type A personality (maybe B)....can I join the Army? | | | |
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| | CliffinAZ
Posts:399

 | | 03/06/2008 11:04 PM |
Alert | My point is that those in the hard sciences employ industrial/organizational psychologists because they want to have the most scientific approach possible to employment testing and other organizational processes (in the case of, say, a nuclear power plant, they cannot afford to have anything other than the most scientific approach possible, given the potential cost of on-the-job mistakes). They would not be doing so if they did not have a basic understanding of the approach and agree that it is scientific. I would honestly be interested in knowing how you define science, and if scientific approach is something that you believe only applies to labs. I also wonder if you hold the common (and very inaccurate) perception that I/O psychology is anything like clinical psychology (e.g., sitting someone down on a couch and having them spill their guts--very exciting to the media, but in my mind the least scientific/objective area of practice in psychology).
To give you an idea of the approach of an I/O psychologist, I'll use your question about how you'd do in the army as an example. This may bore you to death--but don't forget that you asked, even if you weren't expecting a serious answer!
Predicting your ability to perform in the army would largely depend on the job you were applying for. In that setting, the role of an I/O psychologist might be to do an in-depth analysis of the job (breaking it down into specific tasks and components of those tasks performed, as well as knowledge, skills, abilities relevant to those job components, and the levels that are needed for successful performance--a process also involving subject matter experts from the army itself who are familiar with the job), and then to design a test battery (probably using existing test instruments that have already been established through predictive studies to measure those KSAs) to assess the candidate's levels of those knowledge, skills and abilities. This could involve specific knowledge tests, motor coordination tests, possibly real-life or computerized simulations to approximate actual work conditions, among others. For most job positions, this would be designed in a way so that the army itself could then conduct all of the actual testing independently, without involvement of the psychologist at all. Then a predictive validity study would be performed to ensure that the selection battery works in practice by actually differentiating high and low performers on the job (i.e., determining whether or not those who do better on the test battery also perform better on independent performance appraisals down the line). It sounds pretty dry--but it is, in actuality, application of scientific method to a real-life setting. This approach is also considered the 'gold standard' that was used as the basis for essentially all of federal standards/laws concerning fairness in employment testing. The only reason I state all of this is to give you an idea of (one limited area of) I/O psychology, as well as the overall approach. If it doesn't sound anything like "traditional" clinical pyschology, that's because it is about as far from clinical psychology as you can get and still be called a psychologist. But to me, it's also a much more empirical/objective field, which is based on a very scientific approach (albeit one that is much less interesting to the average person than psychoanalysis). I know that this is a pretty extensive response, and that we have also gotten way off-track from your original purpose of this thread. For that reason, if you want to continue this discussion, feel free to PM me. If not, then don't. | | | |
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