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| | Author | Messages | |
Veritas
Posts:342
 | | 10/03/2007 8:41 PM |
 Alert | Posted By JasonY on 10/03/2007 1:25 PM Posted By Copa Conscious on 10/03/2007 11:47 AM
I think it makes most sense if 'god' is female, because only women can give life. Well, if there was a god. God is male and female, God is God so he/she can be whomever and whatever......whenever.....
God is NEITHER male nor female ... those are physical properties and God is a spirit. His revelation to mankind was in the form of "male" and I'm sure He had His reasons for that.
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| | JAG
Posts:689
| | 10/03/2007 9:13 PM |
Alert | Posted By Veritas on 10/03/2007 8:41 PM Posted By JasonY on 10/03/2007 1:25 PM Posted By Copa Conscious on 10/03/2007 11:47 AM
I think it makes most sense if 'god' is female, because only women can give life. Well, if there was a god. God is male and female, God is God so he/she can be whomever and whatever......whenever..... God is NEITHER male nor female ... those are physical properties and God is a spirit. His revelation to mankind was in the form of "male" and I'm sure He had His reasons for that. 
Great point. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/03/2007 9:43 PM |
Alert | Your getting me interested. Do you think that the Jesus was no more dead then when someone was resusciated? If so, how is it then a miracle at all?
Yes, He was dead longer, but after around a minute or two, the brain suffers extreme injury.
Sorry I do not get that context.
What context do you get then?
As for all have sinned or none are rightous. You need to explain the contradictions not me. There were rightous in the OT, Jesus spoke of Rightous not needing Him.
But Jesus did not say that there actually are any righteous people, in fact, no one is righteous by the law. Galatians 3:11-14:
Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith. But the law is not based on faith, but the one who does the works of the law will live by them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”) in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.
I've highlighted the important parts. Now if that's not a conclusive statement that righteousness only comes through faith in Jesus, I don't know what is. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/03/2007 9:48 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 10/03/2007 9:13 PM Posted By Veritas on 10/03/2007 8:41 PM Posted By JasonY on 10/03/2007 1:25 PM Posted By Copa Conscious on 10/03/2007 11:47 AM
I think it makes most sense if 'god' is female, because only women can give life. Well, if there was a god. God is male and female, God is God so he/she can be whomever and whatever......whenever..... God is NEITHER male nor female ... those are physical properties and God is a spirit. His revelation to mankind was in the form of "male" and I'm sure He had His reasons for that. Great point.
Sex notwithstanding, gender references, masculinity and references to "He" are intended:
The masculinity of the Father and Son is clear from their names, as given in the New Testament. In the case of the Son, his masculinity is reinforced by his incarnation as the man, Jesus of Nazareth. The New Testament also refers to the Holy Spirit as masculine (in the Gospel of John 14-16).Α] John reports Jesus referring to the Holy Spirit as Comforter (masculine in Greek), and uses grammatically necessary masculine forms of the Greek pronoun autos.Β] Grammatical gender, on its own, says nothing about natural gender. However, when John reports Jesus speaking of the Holy Spirit as Spirit, grammatically neuter in Greek,Γ] he uses the masculine form of the demonstrative pronoun ekeinos ("that male one").Δ] This breaking of the grammatical agreement, expected by native language readers, is a clear indication of the authorial intention to unambiguously convey the personhood of the Holy Spirit, and also his masculinity.Ε]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_and_gender#Christianity | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | JAG
Posts:689
| | 10/04/2007 12:58 AM |
Alert | Jason,
Yes, He was dead longer, but after around a minute or two, the brain suffers extreme injury.
That is not true. People have been legally dead for hours and were no worse for the wear. Again, we constently change our definition of dead, we really have no grasp of what really dead means.
But are you saying that someone who was brought back to life in the ER is the same as Christ coming back from the dead?
What context do you get then?
I take what He said quite litterally. You know its funny, some state that Catholics are unbiblical. But yet I am finding we are more literal then most other faiths.
As for the rest, we are just going round and round.
Your obvios that you tend to lean towards Calvinism. I mean you have to be based on your statements that no-one can go to Heaven unless they are proclaimed Christians, this means that some poor soul in the jungle never got the chance. I disagree with that, so does my Church, and my witness does as well.
Let me ask you this. How would you feel about someone who gave birth to a child just to abuse them? All the while giving another one your attention? To be honest thats what your really saying about God. I just cannot believe that to be true, and if it was I would gladly go to hell for enternity. Luckily it is not true from what I have seen. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/04/2007 11:34 AM |
Alert | Seems like the definition of none and all seem pretty simple to me...
Before we agree to disagree, what do you make of the Galatians quote above?
Let me ask you this. How would you feel about someone who gave birth to a child just to abuse them? All the while giving another one your attention? To be honest thats what your really saying about God. I just cannot believe that to be true, and if it was I would gladly go to hell for enternity. Luckily it is not true from what I have seen.
You have a distorted view. Man has sinned and deserves nothing from God. Christ is God's gift to man so that all might live and yet some still reject Him. Because of this God knew before the world was made who would chose and not chose Him, and calls only those who chose. It's like you having a child that abuses you not the other way around.
Like I said before, I doubt the people in the jungle have never heard of God. Is he limited to missionaries? No, he can contact them Himself. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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|  | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 10/04/2007 2:10 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 10/04/2007 12:58 AM Jason,
Yes, He was dead longer, but after around a minute or two, the brain suffers extreme injury.
That is not true. People have been legally dead for hours and were no worse for the wear. Again, we constently change our definition of dead, we really have no grasp of what really dead means.
Those people are on life support to keep the bodily systems working. It is far from comparable to being buried in the ground for three days, as Jesus was. | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:689
| | 10/04/2007 5:19 PM |
Alert | Yes it is distorted and its what your are attempting to state. That's the big gap with Calvenism though. The theoligy says that God picked who would be with Him, Logically it would mean He is picking those who will be in Hell.
Can you find me a case of where Christainity was found in the middle of the jungle with no missionary intervention. Yes I believe God has talked to them thru ways that they can understand. But according to your stance unless they know Christ or who He was, they are out of luck. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/04/2007 5:59 PM |
Alert | The theoligy says that God picked who would be with Him, Logically it would mean He is picking those who will be in Hell.
No, this is not true! Even a basic reading of Genesis will tell you that. Man sinned of his own free will and sealed his fate. I don't understand why you're suddenly willing to put limits on God. You're the one telling Him he cannot chose who goes to heaven? Is that not the original sin, elevating yourself to God's level?
Can you find me a case of where Christainity was found in the middle of the jungle with no missionary intervention. Yes I believe God has talked to them thru ways that they can understand. But according to your stance unless they know Christ or who He was, they are out of luck.
Ah, so you believe God will talk to them right up to the point of telling them about Christ. That makes a whole lot of sense... 
Bottom line: I write you a letter that says meet me in Pacana Park and you'll get a free gift. Does that mean anyone who reads the letter gets a free gift?
You still have not explained why "none" and "all" suddenly do not mean what they usually do. Why do you refuse to explain this? What about the Galatians quote? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | EEE
Posts:395
| | 10/04/2007 6:47 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/04/2007 11:34 AM
Because of this God knew before the world was made who would chose and not chose Him, and calls only those who chose.
Actually this is a non-Calvinist view. That is how they make use of the words:
chosen, predestination, called, etc.
The correct way to say it is: All Mankind was doomed for hell, but God in his Mercy, before the world began chose who he would save from Hell.
Let's consider these verses:
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
How did you or anybody choose God when you don't seek after him?
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
How did you, being dead in sin, resurrect your soul to chose God? If it said you were "drowning in the trespasses and sins" then what you said would make sense.
Eph 2:4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--
It was God who made you alive so you will accept him. (Notice I said will and not can.)
Finally,
Joh 6:41So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."
Joh 6:42 They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
Joh 6:43Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
Joh 6:44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Notice the Jews were grumbling in disbelief about who Jesus said he was.
Jesus told them to stop the grumbling, because there is a reason they didn't believe: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.
It didn't say, No one can come to me because God knew you didn't chose me so He is not going to draw you.
Just wanted to clear things up so you don't misrepresent the view.
If you want to borrow any reading material let me know. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | EEE
Posts:395
| | 10/04/2007 6:56 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 10/04/2007 5:19 PM
That's the big gap with Calvenism though. The theoligy says that God picked who would be with Him, Logically it would mean He is picking those who will be in Hell.
You are misrepresenting the Calvinistic view. God didn't pick who would be in hell. Rather he chose who he would show mercy to.
Let's clear some things up:
basically you say there is a big gap because you assume all deserve a chance for heaven.
However biblically
Justice:
Justice is everybody deserves hell:
Mercy is
God who is all powerful, can be merciful whom he chooses to and who are we to question him.
Rom 9:14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
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Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | JAG
Posts:689
| | 10/05/2007 9:15 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/04/2007 5:59 PM
No, this is not true! Even a basic reading of Genesis will tell you that. Man sinned of his own free will and sealed his fate. I don't understand why you're suddenly willing to put limits on God. You're the one telling Him he cannot chose who goes to heaven? Is that not the original sin, elevating yourself to God's level?
Again your belief is that God created someone to allow them to burn in Hell without given them the chance to hear the Gospel.
Lets say a baby died before their time of conscience. Your saying they must go to hell because they never had the opportunity to hear of God?
Is that really a God that you would want to Worship?
Ah, so you believe God will talk to them right up to the point of telling them about Christ. That makes a whole lot of sense...
No I do not.
But can you please direct me to any literature of anyone finding Christian faith in pristine indigenous communities without external influence. Trust me if there was such a thing, we would have heard of it.
You still have not explained why "none" and "all" suddenly do not mean what they usually do. Why do you refuse to explain this? What about the Galatians quote?
As you have not also answered mine, I am waiting for you to answer my question if the OT covenants are still legit, and if not any passage of them being revoked. Also again, what faith was Job.
All I am seeking in a civil debate. | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:689
| | 10/05/2007 9:22 PM |
Alert | EEE,
I was raised with strong Calvinist beliefs. I left the faith directly due to those beliefs, I find them ilogical when based on core Christian beliefs. Luckily I have found a better path and Witness before it was to late.
I said it before. If the Calvenist view of God is true. I would glady burn in Hell for enternity. Luckily it is not. I mean no offense with that, but that is how I feel. | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:395
| | 10/06/2007 7:21 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 10/05/2007 9:22 PM
EEE,
I was raised with strong Calvinist beliefs. I left the faith directly due to those beliefs, I find them ilogical when based on core Christian beliefs. Luckily I have found a better path and Witness before it was to late.
I said it before. If the Calvenist view of God is true. I would glady burn in Hell for enternity. Luckily it is not. I mean no offense with that, but that is how I feel.
JAG,
Notice you were unable to address the actual scripture, but rather go straight into your feelings on why it is wrong. You have already demonstrated that many of your beliefs are how you feel and think(ie. God doesn't Change, Homosexuality being a sin), when the bible clearly addresses those issues.
It is clear that you interpret the bible base off your thinking, instead of what it is actually saying. If you would take the bible as it is(The word of God), you would have no problem submitting to the truths, but you would rather add your own views to make sense of things for your liking.
I would glady burn in Hell for enternity.
If you believe the Catholic doctrine of Faith plus works, you will end up there anyway. I'm not sure if you do or not, hopefully you don't, but I think you mentioned you were involved with Catholicism. Salvation comes through faith in Christ alone. Adding works(doing sacraments to receive grace) is a heresy and not found in scripture. If you don't believe that then praise God, I consider you a brother in Christ! If you do believe that, then lets address the scriptures to get to the truth as one of us is in error and we should help each other out to see the truth. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:3330
| | 10/08/2007 7:53 AM |
Alert | | Believing in God but doing nothing to help the common man isn't very Christian at all........IMO | |
"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | AuntieEm
Posts:159
| | 10/08/2007 4:15 PM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 10/06/2007 7:21 PM Posted By JAG on 10/05/2007 9:22 PM
EEE,
I was raised with strong Calvinist beliefs. I left the faith directly due to those beliefs, I find them ilogical when based on core Christian beliefs. Luckily I have found a better path and Witness before it was to late.
I said it before. If the Calvenist view of God is true. I would glady burn in Hell for enternity. Luckily it is not. I mean no offense with that, but that is how I feel. JAG, Notice you were unable to address the actual scripture, but rather go straight into your feelings on why it is wrong. You have already demonstrated that many of your beliefs are how you feel and think(ie. God doesn't Change, Homosexuality being a sin), when the bible clearly addresses those issues. It is clear that you interpret the bible base off your thinking, instead of what it is actually saying. If you would take the bible as it is(The word of God), you would have no problem submitting to the truths, but you would rather add your own views to make sense of things for your liking.
I would glady burn in Hell for enternity.
If you believe the Catholic doctrine of Faith plus works, you will end up there anyway. I'm not sure if you do or not, hopefully you don't, but I think you mentioned you were involved with Catholicism. Salvation comes through faith in Christ alone. Adding works(doing sacraments to receive grace) is a heresy and not found in scripture. If you don't believe that then praise God, I consider you a brother in Christ! If you do believe that, then lets address the scriptures to get to the truth as one of us is in error and we should help each other out to see the truth.
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Who died and made you God? How dare you say that Catholics are going to hell. I don't do works in order to be saved, I do works because I am saved. | |
I'm walking 60 miles over three days in the Arizona Breast Cancer 3-Day because everyone deserves a lifetime! http://08.the3day.org/goto/emma | |
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| | EEE
Posts:395
| | 10/08/2007 6:32 PM |
Alert | Posted By AuntieEm on 10/08/2007 4:15 PM Posted By EEE on 10/06/2007 7:21 PM Posted By JAG on 10/05/2007 9:22 PM
EEE,
I was raised with strong Calvinist beliefs. I left the faith directly due to those beliefs, I find them ilogical when based on core Christian beliefs. Luckily I have found a better path and Witness before it was to late.
I said it before. If the Calvenist view of God is true. I would glady burn in Hell for enternity. Luckily it is not. I mean no offense with that, but that is how I feel. JAG, Notice you were unable to address the actual scripture, but rather go straight into your feelings on why it is wrong. You have already demonstrated that many of your beliefs are how you feel and think(ie. God doesn't Change, Homosexuality being a sin), when the bible clearly addresses those issues. It is clear that you interpret the bible base off your thinking, instead of what it is actually saying. If you would take the bible as it is(The word of God), you would have no problem submitting to the truths, but you would rather add your own views to make sense of things for your liking.
I would glady burn in Hell for enternity.
If you believe the Catholic doctrine of Faith plus works, you will end up there anyway. I'm not sure if you do or not, hopefully you don't, but I think you mentioned you were involved with Catholicism. Salvation comes through faith in Christ alone. Adding works(doing sacraments to receive grace) is a heresy and not found in scripture. If you don't believe that then praise God, I consider you a brother in Christ! If you do believe that, then lets address the scriptures to get to the truth as one of us is in error and we should help each other out to see the truth. Whoa, whoa, whoa! Who died and made you God? How dare you say that Catholics are going to hell. I don't do works in order to be saved, I do works because I am saved.
I don't believe all Catholics are going to hell, but the Bible is clear that Salvation is through faith alone. When you get to the meat of the Catholic doctrine, it is faith plus works. Catholics believe in order to receive Grace from Christ, then you must do sacraments. This is not scriptural. Read Galatians.
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Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
|
| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/08/2007 6:38 PM |
Alert | | JAG, can you answer this one question? Why do you chose to selectively throw out verses in the Bible? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/08/2007 6:46 PM |
Alert | Is that really a God that you would want to Worship?
Do you not see the slippery slope here? Does the clay get to ask the maker what the maker should and should not be? You can't go cafeteria style on the Bible and still remain logical. To (mis)quote Bill Cosby, "He is not Burger King, you can't have Him your way."
As you have not also answered mine, I am waiting for you to answer my question if the OT covenants are still legit, and if not any passage of them being revoked. Also again, what faith was Job.
I explained this one, twice. The OT covenants are still legit, but it goes back to you tossing out sections of the Bible to fit what you want God to be. No one is able to live up to them. What is so hard about that to understand?
All I am seeking in a civil debate.
All I'm seeking is a civil debate with someone who is not purposely evasive. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | JAG
Posts:689
| | 10/08/2007 7:48 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/08/2007 6:38 PM
JAG, can you answer this one question? Why do you chose to selectively throw out verses in the Bible?
Again you need to answer my question. It leads into what you are saying.
Those who are still under the older Covenants can be righteous by their actions and a sacrifice. Christians can do this as well, just that we have sacrificed the perfect Lamb.
Do you agree with this? | | | |
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