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Subject: Polygamy redux
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ChimneyDuckUser is Offline

Posts:191

05/16/2008 2:03 PM Alert 
Unitarians and Quakers also don't believe in the trinity.

Personally, it seems like a whole lot of mental gymnastics to raise the spirit and son to God status while maintaining a single God. It seems this way to the Unitarians and Quakers too.

Perhaps you can point me the bible passage that explains this, or mentions the trinity:
Father = God
Son = God
Spirit = God

Father =/= Son
Son =/= Spirit
Spirit =/= Father

http://www.maricopabikeclub.com - Join us for a bicycle ride.
itsadryheatUser is Offline

Posts:229

05/16/2008 2:12 PM Alert 
The Unitarians also believe that everyone will be saved and no one will be damned to judgement. This is not in the Bible at all. There will be judgement and only those who have confessed with their mouths that Jesus is Lord and believed in their hearts will be saved. I do believe that Quakers did believe in the Trinity (at first) but then became more Unitarian in their views, so wouldn't that make them Unitarian?

Rather than my quoting a bunch of scriptures backing up the Trinity in the Bible, why don't you point me to where (in the Bible) it doesn't support it. We can go from there.
itsadryheatUser is Offline

Posts:229

05/16/2008 2:19 PM Alert 

And NO the word "trinity" is not mentioned in the bible and may have first been introduced as a word or concept during the Nicene Creed, which was convened to unify the church. However, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, refer to each other as "one" throughout the Bible....read the Gospel of John.

hastings1066User is Offline

Posts:825


05/16/2008 2:24 PM Alert 
Posted By itsadryheat on 05/16/2008 2:12 PM
The Unitarians also believe that everyone will be saved and no one will be damned to judgement. This is not in the Bible at all. There will be judgement and only those who have confessed with their mouths that Jesus is Lord and believed in their hearts will be saved. I do believe that Quakers did believe in the Trinity (at first) but then became more Unitarian in their views, so wouldn't that make them Unitarian?

Rather than my quoting a bunch of scriptures backing up the Trinity in the Bible, why don't you point me to where (in the Bible) it doesn't support it. We can go from there.

 

I have no dog in this fight, but when you ask someone to point out where in the bible it does not support something, you are being unreasonable. How do you prove a negative? You could just as easily ask one to prove that he did not, in an earlier life, assassinate Lincoln.

The idea that if you do not agree with my view of Christianity then you are not a Christian is not a new one. For hundreds of years the church called such people heretics and burned them. Many of todays Protestant churches were subjected to such treatment during the Reformation.

itsadryheatUser is Offline

Posts:229

05/16/2008 2:30 PM Alert 
I don't think its unreasonable.
qwertyUser is Offline

Posts:135


05/16/2008 2:33 PM Alert 
However, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, refer to each other as "one" throughout the Bible....read the Gospel of John.

Could this not logically be interpretted as One in purpose or function? Similar to a nation or family that is united as one? Three separate perfect Beings acting as One makes more sense to me than One Being with three personalities. If it is only one Being, why not just act as one Being and not give yourself three different names?
moinmoinUser is Offline

Posts:394


05/16/2008 2:41 PM Alert 

The message of John is that we are to be "one," as the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(John 17:20-21)

Surely Christ wasn't praying for all of us to be swallowed up into one grand "Trinity" with the persons of the Godhead.

That the doctrine of the Trinity is not from or grounded in the Bible is well-established and accepted by Christians who accept the Trinity. You'll note that the following article's sources are all from non-Mormon, trinitarian Bible scholars.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Godhead_and_the_Trinity

A major Christian faith that doesn't accept the Trinity, which I'm sure you don't exclude from your definition of Christianity, are the various Eastern Orthodox faiths. They split from the Roman Catholic Church in 1054 A.D. over this very question (Eastern Orthodox doctrine is that the Son is separate from, and subordinate to the Father).

The lynchpin behind the vigorous efforts to brand Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons as "non-Christians" is really due to the fact that these churches both perform missionary work that leads to growth in their churches and declines in "trinitarian" ones. The Southern Baptism Convention, the nation's largest Protestant confession and foremost evangelical church, is suffering under declines in membership that are indicative of the other "mainstream" Christian churches.

http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=27967

This whole "Christian/non-Christian" name-calling stuff is an attempt to brand the prospering churches "mad dogs" in the hopes of poisoning the well and inocculating their membership against even considering these churches' messages.

ChimneyDuckUser is Offline

Posts:191

05/16/2008 3:31 PM Alert 
Qwerty, The way that you describe it in your question, doesn't really reflect the Trinity.

"If it is only one Being, why not just act as one Being and not give yourself three different names?"

The Trinity isn't just simply one being with 3 different facets of the same being. The Trinity are three Separate beings that ARE one being. And each of the three separate beings are distinct and are definitely not each other.
the Father is God, all of God.
the Son is God, all of God.
the Spirit is God, all of God.
but the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father.
All are eternal, existing before time.

Logically, of course, this cannot be. I think the LDS Godhead idea makes a lot more sense, three distinct entities with the same united purpose.

http://www.maricopabikeclub.com - Join us for a bicycle ride.
itsadryheatUser is Offline

Posts:229

05/16/2008 3:42 PM Alert 

OH GOSH!! Where are the other Christians out here!!??

In John, Jesus often refers to He and the Father being One. Jesus is the WORD. You have it all wrong. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." Who is the Word? v14, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." Who is the Word that became flesh? John the Baptist proclaimed it," v 15 ," He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me..." v 26 "I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. It is He who, coming after me..." V 29, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"


I am still waiting for someone to prove (using the Bible) that there is no Trinity.

The lynchpin behind the vigorous efforts to brand Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons as "non-Christians" is really due to the fact that these churches both perform missionary work that leads to growth in their churches and declines in "trinitarian" ones. The Southern Baptism Convention, the nation's largest Protestant confession and foremost evangelical church, is suffering under declines in membership that are indicative of the other "mainstream" Christian churches.This whole "Christian/non-Christian" name-calling stuff is an attempt to brand the prospering churches "mad dogs" in the hopes of poisoning the well and inocculating their membership against even considering these churches' messages.


Are you kidding me?? NO, this is not behind the "vigorous efforts" the effort to teach the Truth is out of love for our LDS or JW, or eastern Religion friends, family, colleagues, and neighbors. If that is what this discussion has turned into, then I think I will back out of it. No one has been able to refute anything on these matters. Instead, roadblocks have been thrown up and questions gone unanswered. OK, let's look at it this way.

If God is not who He says He is and cannot do what He says He can do. If Jesus is not who He says He is and cannot do what He says He can do. If the Holy Spirit is not who He says He is and cannot do what the Lord says He can do, then why look toward heaven? LDS say there are three levels of heaven. Everyone can at least get into the first level. The second and third levels are only fit for those who are truly righteous, who have held up all the laws and commandments, who have paid their tithes, done their duty, gone on their mission trip, baptized the dead, been sealed in the church....and yet, if God is not who He says He is, then we will never be able to be in his prescence anyway. Because how could He be with me in my heaven, and you in your heaven, and them in their heavens all at the same time? The LDS idea of heaven is a Christians idea of hell because in the Mormon idea of heaven, we will never be with God and to a Christian, that is ALL with whom we want to be.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Ephesians 2: 9 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

itsadryheatUser is Offline

Posts:229

05/16/2008 3:56 PM Alert 
The Trinity isn't just simply one being with 3 different facets of the same being. The Trinity are three Separate beings that ARE one being. And each of the three separate beings are distinct and are definitely not each other.
the Father is God, all of God.
the Son is God, all of God.
the Spirit is God, all of God.
but the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father.
All are eternal, existing before time.

Logically, of course, this cannot be. I think the LDS Godhead idea makes a lot more sense, three distinct entities with the same united purpose.


Here is what the Bible says:
Isaiah 6: 3, 8 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory..Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

EEEUser is Offline

Posts:374


05/16/2008 9:04 PM Alert 
Posted By hastings1066 on 05/16/2008 2:03 PM

The early Christian church was as diverse in its beliefs as it was in its membership. Prior to the Council of Nicea in 325 there were two opposing views of the nature of God and Christ. The Trinitarians believed there were three persons in one God. They were opposed by the Monarchianists who believed in one indivisible God. After a debate, when the vote was taken , of the several hundred church leaders present, very few (3? - not sure of exact number) refused to go with the majority Trinitarian position. The resulting Nicene Creed established the basic doctrine of the Church, including the idea of the Trinity.  If the vote had gone the other way, the Trinity would be out.

To preserve unity in the church, which had been made the official religion of the empire, the Emperor Constantine exiled the leading Monarchianists, Bishop Arius. Monarchianists ideas however, did not die out. The heresy (as it was then considered to be), continued under the name of Arianism. When the German barbarians invaded the Empire in the 5th Century, they were not pagans, they were Arian Christians. Under constant church pressure the idea all but died out by the 8th Century. Thus, as you can see, many early Christians did not believe in the Trinity.

 

 

It's also important to note, that many of the early christians didn't have the whole New Testament either.  Many of the writings were still being collected and sought after.

Not until 367 AD,  In his easter letter Athanasius was the first person to correctly identify the same 27 books of the New Testament we have today.    That is 42 years after the Council of Nicaea.

So there is clear reason as why the early church struggled with defining the Godhead,  they didn't have the whole New Testament.


Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/
EEEUser is Offline

Posts:374


05/16/2008 9:16 PM Alert 
Posted By ChimneyDuck on 05/16/2008 2:03 PM
Unitarians and Quakers also don't believe in the trinity.

Personally, it seems like a whole lot of mental gymnastics to raise the spirit and son to God status while maintaining a single God. It seems this way to the Unitarians and Quakers too.

Perhaps you can point me the bible passage that explains this, or mentions the trinity:
Father = God
Son = God
Spirit = God

Father =/= Son
Son =/= Spirit
Spirit =/= Father

 

 

 

It's actually quite simple, the Bible makes numerous mentions that there is only One God.    The Bible identifies the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as God.   Therefore it's easy to conclude there are three persons of one Being. 

 

Plus it becomes even clearer reading Jesus admit it himself.  Read the whole book of John, and it's clear that Jesus is YAHWEH the God of the Old Testament.  For example, He said he was the I AM the same name God  used in the Old testament and the Jews started to stone him for claiming to be God. 

 

Joh 8:57  So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58  Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Joh 8:59  So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.


Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/
itsadryheatUser is Offline

Posts:229

05/16/2008 10:27 PM Alert 
Thank you EEE for jumping into this conversation! Thank you for making clear some items re: the Nicean Creed as well.
ChimneyDuckUser is Offline

Posts:191

05/17/2008 12:20 PM Alert 
Does it make sense for Satan to try to tempt God himself? What was that all about?

It's quite obvious that Jesus was not all-powerful and all knowing, as God is.

God made Jesus. . .

Act 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Jesus < God

John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.


Jesus is under God.

1Cr 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[fn3] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

1Cr 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.


Jesus says he is not God.

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.


http://www.maricopabikeclub.com - Join us for a bicycle ride.
itsadryheatUser is Offline

Posts:229

05/17/2008 2:19 PM Alert 

 

Does it make sense for Satan to try to tempt God himself? What was that all about?

Funny how Satan does that.  He is even cocky enough to tempt Jesus himself. Read Matthew 4:1-11, better yet, I will just print it here for you.  If Satan has the audacity to tempt Jesus who he knows is God, what will he do with you? Or me? Or anyone?

The Temptation of Jesus

 1 Then (A) Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil. (B) 2 After He had fasted 40 days and 40 nights, (C) He was hungry. 3 Then the tempter approached Him and said, "If You are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." (D)

    4 But He answered, "It is written:

    Man must not live on bread alone

    but on every word that comes

    from the mouth of God. " (E) (F)

    5 Then the Devil took Him to the holy city, [a] had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, (G) 6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:

    He will give His angels (H) orders concerning you and,

    they will support you with their hands

    so that you will not strike

    your foot against a stone. " (I) (J)

    7 Jesus told him, "It is also written: Do not test the Lord your God. " (K) (L)

    8 Again, the Devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 And he said to Him, "I will give You all these things if You will fall down and worship me." [b]

    10 Then Jesus told him, "Go away, [c] Satan! For it is written:

    Worship the Lord your God,

    and serve only (M) Him. " (N)

    11 Then the Devil left Him, and immediately angels came and began to serve Him. (O)

   

Act 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”


This verse ACTUALLY reads, "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ- this Jesus whom you crucified." I think when you write it correctly, the context is changed don't you?



John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.


This verse talks about how as Gods Son, Jesus willingly submits to God the Father. If you were to quote the entire section, you would learn now Jesus is promising the Holy Spirit as a helper and how those that love Him keep his Word, those who do not love Him do not keep his Word and the Father is not in him.

1Cr 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[fn3] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

1Cr 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.


God and Jesus are equal, but each has a special work to do. Christ is not inferior to the Father, but his work was to defeat evil on earth (death and resurrection). He defeated sin adn death on teh cross and in the final days defeated Satan and all evil. If you quoted the whole section, you would find that it speaks to how Jesus resurrected has conquered all evil, including death. At the time of the second coming, Christ will present to God a perfect new world.

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.


This quote is from the parable of the Rich Young Man. This guy wanted to know what he needed to do to inheirit the earth and he called Jesus "Good Teacher". Jesus did answer, "why do you call me good?" The rich young man is focusing on what he has to DO rather than on what God has already done. Calling Jesus "good" is a way of asking the man if he really knew who he was talking to, this man was calling Jesus God whether he realized it or not. This man is pretty much saying that he has kept all the commandments and laws, so is that all he needed to do for eternal life. Jesus tells him to sell all that he has adn give it all to the poor. At these words, the young man was "saddened and he went away grieving, for he owned much property" v 23. Jesus then says that is is hard for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God. This story is about money and posessions and whether we are willing to give it all up for God.

I think you need to get yourself a Life Application Bible ChimneyDuck and read things in context. If you don't understand it, do some research.

qwertyUser is Offline

Posts:135


05/17/2008 4:44 PM Alert 
I am still waiting for someone to prove (using the Bible) that there is no Trinity.

I'm still waiting for you to prove with the bible that there is. Why does the Savior say "my father" throughout the Bible if there is only One. You also didn't really respond to moinmoin's comment on John 17:20-21. Isn't that a legitimate comparison of how God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost could be "One" but separate beings? The problem is we are both interpreting scriptures differently, so how do you ever expect me to "prove" to you what I believe if you are interpreting it differently than I am and vice versa? I just don't think it's "deal-breaker" point of doctrine to determine who is Christian and who isn't. We agree there are three somethings involved...God the Father, Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Why would whether I believe they are One being determine whether I am a Christian? The God I pray is the same you pray to. I start my prayers by saying "Our Heavenly Father". Is that different from your prayers?

No one has been able to refute anything on these matters.

Which matters are you referring to? We have been offering "refutes" on these subjects based on our beliefs.

Instead, roadblocks have been thrown up and questions gone unanswered.

Not sure what you mean here either. which questions have gone unanswered? You have to realize that this thread has drifted off into MANY different directions so naturally a question way back on page 2 may have been missed. Is there a lingering question that you are still hoping to get a response on? If you're referring to the LDS prophet's comments on Polygamy, I did reply with my opinion on that (page 4).

If God is not who He says He is and cannot do what He says He can do. If Jesus is not who He says He is and cannot do what He says He can do. If the Holy Spirit is not who He says He is and cannot do what the Lord says He can do, then why look toward heaven? LDS say there are three levels of heaven. Everyone can at least get into the first level. The second and third levels are only fit for those who are truly righteous, who have held up all the laws and commandments, who have paid their tithes, done their duty, gone on their mission trip, baptized the dead, been sealed in the church....and yet, if God is not who He says He is, then we will never be able to be in his prescence anyway. Because how could He be with me in my heaven, and you in your heaven, and them in their heavens all at the same time? The LDS idea of heaven is a Christians idea of hell because in the Mormon idea of heaven, we will never be with God and to a Christian, that is ALL with whom we want to be.


I don't follow your logic here at all. What do mean by all the statements of "if God is not who He says He is..."? Are you implying that LDS belief means that God is not who He says he is? If so, I'm not sure what you are basing that on. We believe that God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost did and will do all the things taught in the Bible. How does a Trinitarian belief or not change that?

Regarding the degrees of glory concept, you are bringing up a whole new discussion that could have it's own thread with 5 pages of responses. :-). Regardless and at the risk of convoluting this thread even more, I will simply state that the concept of Degrees of Glory is not foreign to Biblical teachings:

1 Corithians Chapter 15
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

I'm sure you have another interpretation for that scripture as well, thus again the idea of being able to "prove" anything to anyone here is basically impossible. I just want to make sure you understand where the LDS are coming from in their beliefs. Nothing more.
EEEUser is Offline

Posts:374


05/17/2008 4:59 PM Alert 

Posted By qwerty on 05/17/2008 4:44 PM

. You also didn't really respond to moinmoin's comment on John 17:20-21. Isn't that a legitimate comparison of how God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost could be "One" but separate beings?

 

We need to define some Terms.  The Father , The Son, and The Holy Spirit are not 3 Beings, but rather 3 persons of the one Being who is God.     Moinmoin's comment is nothing more than eisigesis of the text.

 


Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/
itsadryheatUser is Offline

Posts:229

05/17/2008 5:07 PM Alert 

I'm still waiting for you to prove with the bible that there is. Why does the Savior say "my father" throughout the Bible if there is only One


I think we have already proven the reason why Jesus refers to God has the Father...because He is the Father. Read some of the the verses already spoken about on this matter.

What I mean to say is that if God is not omnipotent, omnipresent, if He basically is lying about the concept of the Trinity, well then he cannot do what he said he could do. Because the Bible clearly talks about a trinity. The Bible clearly talks about a virgin birth...not a birth in which God came down as a man and then Mary was pregnant. The Bible talks about there being only one way to heaven- Jesus...if these things aren't true, and your version is true, then why would I want to be in heaven? If the way you understand God, the Bible, and these other things that have been discussed is true, then he clearly cannot be the Savior of the world. If God was once a man, who was then exalted to Godhead...then that goes against what the Bible says. When God says He was, always, and will be, what does that mean? If God was once a man, then I think He would have outlined that somewhere in the Bible. Again, if God is not who He says He is in the Bible...if Jesus is not who He says He is in the Bible...if the Holy Spirit is not who He says He is...if there are three degrees to heaven and we have to work to get to those degrees, then Jesus sayng, I am the way, the truth, and the life, NO man comes to the Father except through me...then that is a lie too. The Bible clearly talks about how salvation is a free gift, something that we do not have to work for.

1 Corithians Chapter 15
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.


Talks about heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. Our heavenly body will obviously be different than our earthly bodies. In that section of verse, people wanted to know what happens to our bodies when we die? Will they be raised again (v 35). They are called "fools" because "that which we sow does not come to life again" v 36. When we get to heaven, we aren't going to care. This doesn't matter. There is are earthly bodies and there are heavenly ones. God will give us a heavenly body in heaven v40, the glory is in the heavently one not the earthly one.  Meaning, [in my opinion] don't put too much stock in this body and what will happen to it when we die.  Just know that we will receive a new body in heaven- a heavenly one. The last verse of the section v 49 says, "just as we have borne the image of the earthly, we will also bear the image of the heavenly."

 This verse or the section of verses does not appear to be talking at all about degrees of glory.

itsadryheatUser is Offline

Posts:229

05/17/2008 5:15 PM Alert 

John 17:20-21 is a prayer for believers. Jesus wants them to be unified in their walk and in their testimony.

Here is the entire scripture:
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

qwertyUser is Offline

Posts:135


05/17/2008 6:05 PM Alert 
John 17:20-21 is a prayer for believers. Jesus wants them to be unified in their walk and in their testimony.

I disagree. I believe it is exactly stating how God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are One, just like we can become One with them.

This verse or the section of verses does not appear to be talking at all about degrees of glory.

I disagree.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Three degrees of glory are represented here.

Again, I'm not sure what else to say on these topics because this is all based on interpretation. While you think it's easily proven your way, I disagree as I have a different interpretation than you. Interpretations are everything, else why are there so many different Christians sects.
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