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| | Author | Messages | |
Jason
Posts:3378
 | | 10/01/2007 10:45 AM |
 Alert | Posted By JAG on 09/27/2007 2:07 PM Posted By EEE on 09/27/2007 6:09 AM
Read the whole Chapter. It's explaining HOW can God Judge those who never heard the Law. Well, since people on a remote Island might never hear the Gospel or the Ten Commandments God is going to Judge the Conscience written to their heart. Of course since a person is unable to keep the Law written on their hearts or the Ten Commandments(Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God), they will perish if they don't have Christ to stand in place of their Sins. So your saying that you cannot be rightous without Christ?
I agree with EEE here. Romans 3:20 puts it best:
For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
The law is written on everyone's heart. Do you not see the logical conclusion? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:608
| | 10/01/2007 11:03 AM |
Alert | Posted By Copa Conscious on 10/01/2007 9:37 AM
I, for one, will sin like the devil every day of my life. I will be a death bed convert and accept your Jesus Christ as my own personal savior and slide right into heaven with you do-gooders.
The only problem is... you have to really accept him as your savior, not just say it. ANYONE can SAY it.
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| | JAG
Posts:682
| | 10/01/2007 11:10 AM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/01/2007 10:45 AM
The law is written on everyone's heart. Do you not see the logical conclusion?
Your just making my part. If the law was written on their hearts and they held to those laws. Would this not be a covenent of natural law in the least?
Another thing to contemplate. Did St Thomas go to heavan? He was a unbeliever till he touched the wounds. Why would he be allowed to go to heavan when he had that advantage that a almost all the other Christians did not have? | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/01/2007 11:15 AM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 10/01/2007 11:10 AM Posted By Jason on 10/01/2007 10:45 AM
The law is written on everyone's heart. Do you not see the logical conclusion? Your just making my part. If the law was written on their hearts and they held to those laws. Would this not be a covenent of natural law in the least?
No, I'm not. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. All know of the law and therefore all have sinned.
Another thing to contemplate. Did St Thomas go to heavan? He was a unbeliever till he touched the wounds. Why would he be allowed to go to heavan when he had that advantage that a almost all the other Christians did not have?
I don't quite understand your point here. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | JAG
Posts:682
| | 10/01/2007 11:21 AM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/01/2007 11:15 AM
No, I'm not. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. All know of the law and therefore all have sinned.
But again Jesus said He did not come for the rightous. If it was impossible to be rightous without Christ, then why would he say such a thing.
St Thomas had a advanatage to acutally touch the risen Glorified body of Christ to believe. He refused to believe till then. Why does he get privlidges that you or I do not have? He did not need faith, but we do? Does not sound like a Just Judge. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/01/2007 11:55 AM |
Alert | But again Jesus said He did not come for the rightous. If it was impossible to be rightous without Christ, then why would he say such a thing.
Romans 3:10: "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none with understanding, there is none seeking after God."
St Thomas had a advanatage to acutally touch the risen Glorified body of Christ to believe. He refused to believe till then. Why does he get privlidges that you or I do not have?
Because God, in His perfect will decided to do that.
He did not need faith, but we do? Does not sound like a Just Judge.
No, he did need faith, since there are promises Jesus has yet to fulfill. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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|  | NEZv69.69
Posts:0
| | 10/01/2007 12:01 PM |
Alert | Who the hell wants to talk about Jesus, the day after an NFL Sunday??
Stupid | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:682
| | 10/01/2007 3:14 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/01/2007 11:55 AM
Romans 3:10: "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none with understanding, there is none seeking after God."
Again you will need to stack up what that verse means when compared to Matthew 9:12-14, and all men who were rightous in the OT. Noah, Lot, Abram, Job etc, etc. Did you know what religion Job was BTW?
No, he did need faith, since there are promises Jesus has yet to fulfill.
Faith is the belief in something that cannot be proven. I have Faith that if I jump out of a plane I will fall to my death, I cannot prove that will happen till it does though. St Thomas does not need Faith for he could prove that Jesus was indeed resurrected. He has seen The Miracle, there was no room or need for faith. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/01/2007 3:21 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 10/01/2007 3:14 PM
Again you will need to stack up what that verse means when compared to Matthew 9:12-14, and all men who were rightous in the OT. Noah, Lot, Abram, Job etc, etc. Did you know what religion Job was BTW?
Again, those men were under the law. The statement in Romans is a present tense statement that addresses those under grace.
Faith is the belief in something that cannot be proven. I have Faith that if I jump out of a plane I will fall to my death, I cannot prove that will happen till it does though. St Thomas does not need Faith for he could prove that Jesus was indeed resurrected. He has seen The Miracle, there was no room or need for faith.
At that time, had Jesus yet fulfilled His promise of everlasting life to Thomas? Has Jesus yet fulfilled his promise of a second return? There's the faith...
Using your plane example, if you witness someone else fall out of a plane and die, you still have faith that when you jump, you'll also die. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/01/2007 3:37 PM |
Alert | Romans 10:18 addresses the people on the island who supposedly haven't heard the word:
But I ask, have they not heard? Yes, they have: Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/01/2007 3:42 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 09/25/2007 8:07 PM
Great question!
I think St Paul answers your question nicely here.
Romans 2, 12:16
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
I finally have an answer for this one. What Paul is saying here is that those that try to live by the law will be judged by the law. As outlined in other sections of the Bible, the only way to gain admittance to heaven is to either accept Jesus (therefore your sin will be no more) or to live perfectly by the law. If you can live 100% perfectly by the law, your heart will attest to that and God will call you righteous. But reading on in Romans, God makes it clear that due to man's condition, none are righteous and all have sinned. So if you chose to live by the law, you will, essentially, die by the law. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | JAG
Posts:682
| | 10/01/2007 4:19 PM |
Alert |
At that time, had Jesus yet fulfilled His promise of everlasting life to Thomas? Has Jesus yet fulfilled his promise of a second return? There's the faith...
Again if you saw a deadman resurected and you were able to touch the gapping wounds. You would need more proof? Sorry its not Faith, its a fact at that point.
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| | JAG
Posts:682
| | 10/01/2007 4:21 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/01/2007 3:37 PM Romans 10:18 addresses the people on the island who supposedly haven't heard the word: But I ask, have they not heard? Yes, they have: Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.
Again you are just further proving my point. They have heard the call, just not in former fashion.
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| | JAG
Posts:682
| | 10/01/2007 4:23 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/01/2007 3:42 PM
I finally have an answer for this one. What Paul is saying here is that those that try to live by the law will be judged by the law. As outlined in other sections of the Bible, the only way to gain admittance to heaven is to either accept Jesus (therefore your sin will be no more) or to live perfectly by the law. If you can live 100% perfectly by the law, your heart will attest to that and God will call you righteous. But reading on in Romans, God makes it clear that due to man's condition, none are righteous and all have sinned. So if you chose to live by the law, you will, essentially, die by the law.
No I do not think this was what was meant. How do you apply this to Jesus speaking of the rightous not needing Him? Or the Rightous of the OT.
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/01/2007 5:19 PM |
Alert | Again if you saw a deadman resurected and you were able to touch the gapping wounds. You would need more proof? Sorry its not Faith, its a fact at that point.
This happens all the time. I don't suddenly start worshipping doctors.
Again you are just further proving my point. They have heard the call, just not in former fashion.
Do you mean formal and not former? It doesn't matter. They have heard the call, that is all that matters.
How do you apply this to Jesus speaking of the rightous not needing Him?
Where does Jesus say this?
Or the Rightous of the OT.
Again, they lived under the law and God pronounced them righteous. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/01/2007 5:33 PM |
Alert | | I don't understand why you keep dropping out scriptures that disagree with what you're saying. The Bible is very clear that under grace, none are righteous. No ifs ands or buts. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 10/01/2007 5:55 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/01/2007 3:42 PM Posted By JAG on 09/25/2007 8:07 PM
Great question!
I think St Paul answers your question nicely here.
Romans 2, 12:16
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. I finally have an answer for this one. What Paul is saying here is that those that try to live by the law will be judged by the law. As outlined in other sections of the Bible, the only way to gain admittance to heaven is to either accept Jesus (therefore your sin will be no more) or to live perfectly by the law. If you can live 100% perfectly by the law, your heart will attest to that and God will call you righteous. But reading on in Romans, God makes it clear that due to man's condition, none are righteous and all have sinned. So if you chose to live by the law, you will, essentially, die by the law.
BINGO!! 
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Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | JAG
Posts:682
| | 10/02/2007 4:56 PM |
Alert |
This happens all the time. I don't suddenly start worshipping doctors.
Dr's resuscitate their patents. Just like Lazarus was resuscitated. Its a major difference.
Do you mean formal and not former? It doesn't matter. They have heard the call, that is all that matters.
You are argueing that they only need to be formally adressed by Christ. I am saying they can know Him informally. There is a theological context around it called "Anonymous Christians". I wish I knew what book it was in, or the name of the priest.
Where does Jesus say this?
Matthew 9:11-13
As for the OT. Are you saying that those Older Covenents are now null and void? | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:682
| | 10/02/2007 4:59 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/01/2007 5:33 PM
I don't understand why you keep dropping out scriptures that disagree with what you're saying. The Bible is very clear that under grace, none are righteous. No ifs ands or buts.
Not true. My Grace definition seems to differ from yours though. But you keep backing up my definition with your posts though.
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/02/2007 9:19 PM |
Alert | But you keep backing up my definition with your posts though.
I'm sorry, but under what definition of English does none not address the entire group? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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