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| | Author | Messages | |
Jason
Posts:3378
 | | 02/06/2008 10:02 AM |
 Alert | Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/06/2008 9:04 AM Posted By hastings1066 on 02/05/2008 10:25 PM Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/05/2008 8:11 PM
it's always been here in one form or another. It has to have been, because there is no way god would break one of the laws of physics that he created (according to ID) and made it from nothing. It would be kind of hypocritical for him to break his own laws wouldn't it? So, if matter has always been and can't be explaned, is that not as big a mystery as the existence of God? NO, it's not, not even close. The physical world and physical universe can seen, measured, and tested. The existence of god cannot.
And the measurements say that the physical universe cannot have existed forever. People say religious people are illogical... 
Why is it hard to accept that there exists something that you haven't measured yet, so you don't know what rules it is bound to, yet so easy to accept that the universe has always existed, breaking one of its fundamental rules? Makes no sense. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81
| | 02/06/2008 10:18 AM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 02/06/2008 10:02 AM Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/06/2008 9:04 AM Posted By hastings1066 on 02/05/2008 10:25 PM Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/05/2008 8:11 PM
it's always been here in one form or another. It has to have been, because there is no way god would break one of the laws of physics that he created (according to ID) and made it from nothing. It would be kind of hypocritical for him to break his own laws wouldn't it? So, if matter has always been and can't be explaned, is that not as big a mystery as the existence of God? NO, it's not, not even close. The physical world and physical universe can seen, measured, and tested. The existence of god cannot. And the measurements say that the physical universe cannot have existed forever. People say religious people are illogical... Why is it hard to accept that there exists something that you haven't measured yet, so you don't know what rules it is bound to, yet so easy to accept that the universe has always existed, breaking one of its fundamental rules? Makes no sense.
How is having an eternal universe breaking a fundamental rule?
Saying God created everything breaks a whole lot more rules/laws of physics than anything immaginable.
Yes our current universe is only 13.6B years old, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one before that, or that after all the stars burn out in 30B years or so it all won't start again. | | | |
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| | ken
Posts:516
| | 02/06/2008 10:54 AM |
Alert | | So 8Days... where did it all begin then? If matter has been here forever? where did it all begin? | |
"Knowledge is often mistaken for intelligence. This is like mistaking a cup of milk for a cow." -- Unknown | |
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| | hastings1066
Posts:782
| | 02/06/2008 10:57 AM |
Alert | Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/06/2008 10:18 AM Posted By Jason on 02/06/2008 10:02 AM Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/06/2008 9:04 AM Posted By hastings1066 on 02/05/2008 10:25 PM Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/05/2008 8:11 PM
it's always been here in one form or another. It has to have been, because there is no way god would break one of the laws of physics that he created (according to ID) and made it from nothing. It would be kind of hypocritical for him to break his own laws wouldn't it? So, if matter has always been and can't be explaned, is that not as big a mystery as the existence of God? NO, it's not, not even close. The physical world and physical universe can seen, measured, and tested. The existence of god cannot. And the measurements say that the physical universe cannot have existed forever. People say religious people are illogical... Why is it hard to accept that there exists something that you haven't measured yet, so you don't know what rules it is bound to, yet so easy to accept that the universe has always existed, breaking one of its fundamental rules? Makes no sense. How is having an eternal universe breaking a fundamental rule? Saying God created everything breaks a whole lot more rules/laws of physics than anything immaginable. Yes our current universe is only 13.6B years old, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one before that, or that after all the stars burn out in 30B years or so it all won't start again.
Can your universe which came before our current one be "measured and tested' or do you take it's existance on faith? We are still left with the question of the creation of matter no matter how many previous universes you postulat. If everything has a cause, then what is the first cause? | | | |
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| | ken
Posts:516
| | 02/06/2008 11:15 AM |
Alert | | Thats whats great about this argument hastings... there is no logical answer to where it all began. All you can do is have faith one way or the other and drives the logic monkeys nuts!!! | |
"Knowledge is often mistaken for intelligence. This is like mistaking a cup of milk for a cow." -- Unknown | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81
| | 02/06/2008 11:42 AM |
Alert | Great questions guys and right now we don't have those answers, but considering we've only been quatitatively studying the universe for a couple hundred years now I'm not surprised.
One thing I do know is that every experiment ever ran, every observation ever made, any thing ever witnessed by a pair of eyes has ever become something out of nothing. Why should we expect anything different in the past or in the future?
If god did create the universe, why no specific mention of it? He mentions the earth and stars (everything that could be seen from earth, except heaven of course) but no mention of the billions of unviewable galaxies that are out there. Why no mention of them or even the other planets in our solar system. If the bible is the word of god, I'm pretty sure he would have wanted us to know about the rest of his work, not just .000000000000000001% of it. If the bible is the word of man, well then it makes sense that there was no mention of these celestial bodies as nobody around at that time knew they were out there. Doesn't make any rational sense. | | | |
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|  | hastings1066
Posts:782
| | 02/06/2008 11:56 AM |
Alert | Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/06/2008 11:42 AM
Great questions guys and right now we don't have those answers, but considering we've only been quatitatively studying the universe for a couple hundred years now I'm not surprised.
One thing I do know is that every experiment ever ran, every observation ever made, any thing ever witnessed by a pair of eyes has ever become something out of nothing. Why should we expect anything different in the past or in the future?
If god did create the universe, why no specific mention of it? He mentions the earth and stars (everything that could be seen from earth, except heaven of course) but no mention of the billions of unviewable galaxies that are out there. Why no mention of them or even the other planets in our solar system. If the bible is the word of god, I'm pretty sure he would have wanted us to know about the rest of his work, not just .000000000000000001% of it. If the bible is the word of man, well then it makes sense that there was no mention of these celestial bodies as nobody around at that time knew they were out there. Doesn't make any rational sense.
You are both right, but the debate is fun. It's nice to discuss such thing with people who use reason and not emotion and insult to debate. we may never know the answers but, as Browning wrote, "mans reach should exceed his grasp or whats a heaven for."Maybe, in a few decades, in the afterlife ken will be able to say "told you so!'
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| | ken
Posts:516
| | 02/06/2008 12:21 PM |
Alert | Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/06/2008 11:42 AM
Great questions guys and right now we don't have those answers, but considering we've only been quatitatively studying the universe for a couple hundred years now I'm not surprised.
One thing I do know is that every experiment ever ran, every observation ever made, any thing ever witnessed by a pair of eyes has ever become something out of nothing. Why should we expect anything different in the past or in the future?
If god did create the universe, why no specific mention of it? He mentions the earth and stars (everything that could be seen from earth, except heaven of course) but no mention of the billions of unviewable galaxies that are out there. Why no mention of them or even the other planets in our solar system. If the bible is the word of god, I'm pretty sure he would have wanted us to know about the rest of his work, not just .000000000000000001% of it. If the bible is the word of man, well then it makes sense that there was no mention of these celestial bodies as nobody around at that time knew they were out there. Doesn't make any rational sense.
You are relating all of your arguments back to the Bible. It is entirely possible that the Bible is 100% fiction and there could still be a God. Maybe all of the books written around a God such as the Torah, Bible, Koran, etc were all written by complete nut jobs who made the stuff up... that still doesn't disprove the existence of God. Maybe God created us and that was it... maybe he has never spoken to a single person on Earth. Even if all that is true I still think there is some sort of creator.
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"Knowledge is often mistaken for intelligence. This is like mistaking a cup of milk for a cow." -- Unknown | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81
| | 02/06/2008 12:56 PM |
Alert | Posted By hastings1066 on 02/06/2008 11:56 AM Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/06/2008 11:42 AM
Great questions guys and right now we don't have those answers, but considering we've only been quatitatively studying the universe for a couple hundred years now I'm not surprised.
One thing I do know is that every experiment ever ran, every observation ever made, any thing ever witnessed by a pair of eyes has ever become something out of nothing. Why should we expect anything different in the past or in the future?
If god did create the universe, why no specific mention of it? He mentions the earth and stars (everything that could be seen from earth, except heaven of course) but no mention of the billions of unviewable galaxies that are out there. Why no mention of them or even the other planets in our solar system. If the bible is the word of god, I'm pretty sure he would have wanted us to know about the rest of his work, not just .000000000000000001% of it. If the bible is the word of man, well then it makes sense that there was no mention of these celestial bodies as nobody around at that time knew they were out there. Doesn't make any rational sense. You are both right, but the debate is fun. It's nice to discuss such thing with people who use reason and not emotion and insult to debate. we may never know the answers but, as Browning wrote, "mans reach should exceed his grasp or whats a heaven for."Maybe, in a few decades, in the afterlife ken will be able to say "told you so!'
I hope it it more than a few decades for Ken and you as well. You both seem like some pretty nice people and are fun to chat/debate with. I know that I'm not going to change anyone's core beliefs and I'm not here to do that. I just want to point out that science has really defined our way of life. From the day you were born, the vacines and medicines you've taken, the electricity that flows through your home, the computer you these messages on, just about everything you consume, and heathcare you have ever received or will receive were all devoloped by scientists. I know you can come back and say god gave us the will to accomplish these things, but I think that that would show a lot of disrespect to the people before us and now that did put in the effort for these advancements that do provide us with the quality and longevity of our lives. Not everybody does it(nor do I) and selling them short and giving all the credit to god would be a travesty. | | | |
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| | ken
Posts:516
| | 02/06/2008 1:04 PM |
Alert | | I absolutely commend scientists for the wonderful things they have afforded us, but this flows both ways. While scientists should be commended for a job well done, they in themselves are not gods and should not expect to be treated as such. When all is said and done, no matter how hard we all work for anything, science included, it is still God that gave us the opportunity to work and he should be commended as well. | |
"Knowledge is often mistaken for intelligence. This is like mistaking a cup of milk for a cow." -- Unknown | |
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| | RichTig
Posts:0
| | 02/06/2008 1:10 PM |
Alert | Hallelujah and Praise jesus.
I would like to commend god for:
avocados (next time make the pit smaller)
boobies
the color green
porn
and the internet, which goes with porn
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81
| | 02/06/2008 1:29 PM |
Alert | athletes thank god for their abilities, scientists do not.
Scientists don't want to be treated like gods, athletes do.
It's funny how that works.
Going back to the original post of this thread, I didn't see the scientist who proved that the building blocks of life could come about under extreme conditions say he was god or even thank god. He just made a discovery about how we possibly came to be, and hopefully others will follow up on his work. Science is answering questions, hard questions, religion is not and is just giving all the answers/credit to god. Again, I think that's a little unfair. | | | |
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| | RichTig
Posts:0
| | 02/06/2008 1:43 PM |
Alert | The only reason athletes and celebrities thank god is the public expects it.
Kathy Griffin didn't thank god and she told god to 'suck it'. There was quite the media firestorm. | | | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81
| | 02/06/2008 1:46 PM |
Alert | | Maybe, but I also think the fact that they don't know better also plays a part in it. | | | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81
| | 02/06/2008 2:06 PM |
Alert | And before Ken or Jason brings up their view that education level has no bearing on believing in god, take a look at this.
http://www.discovergis.com/images/Map/Gallery/INS/edu9.gif
Funny, isn't that where Huckabee had success last night? | | | |
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| | ken
Posts:516
| | 02/06/2008 2:15 PM |
Alert | | If you want to be proud of the fact that you were successfully indoctrinated by the liberal education establishment I won't stand in your way. | |
"Knowledge is often mistaken for intelligence. This is like mistaking a cup of milk for a cow." -- Unknown | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81
| | 02/06/2008 2:19 PM |
Alert | | where does my level of education come into this? I was simply showing that there is a direct correlation between education and belief in a higher power. The question we need to ask is why? | | | |
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| | ken
Posts:516
| | 02/06/2008 2:22 PM |
Alert | | Because Universities in America are overwhelmingly liberal and are not just bastions for higher education, but for brainwashing as well. | |
"Knowledge is often mistaken for intelligence. This is like mistaking a cup of milk for a cow." -- Unknown | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81
| | 02/06/2008 2:29 PM |
Alert | Because Universities in America are for higher education, Churches are for brainwashing.
Fixed it for ya. | | | |
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| | ken
Posts:516
| | 02/06/2008 2:43 PM |
Alert | | So you're telling me that all these young college campus Obama voters are so enlightened and not just brainwashed? They apparently brainwashed you real good if you believe that. | |
"Knowledge is often mistaken for intelligence. This is like mistaking a cup of milk for a cow." -- Unknown | |
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