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| | Author | Messages | |
qwerty
Posts:156
 | | 07/16/2008 3:16 PM |
 Alert | About this... Lets say a husband and wife have 3 sons. They have their family sealed. One son, when he becomes an adult, decides he wants no part of being a Mormon so he never does the required ordanances. Once he dies, he can be proxied even if it's against his will?
"Against his will" is a little misleading. While the ordinance may be performed via proxy, he certainly doesn't have to accept it. For example, my uncle died in his 30's from a motorcycle accident. While he was a member of the LDS Church, he was not very active in any church and never did temple ordinances. Because we believe that there is a time spent between death and the resurrection where individuals can be taught in the Spirit world and come to accept Christ, my dad and his siblings are planning on doing his temple work in the event that he does come to accept the Gospel. This doesn't mean he is forced to accept it.
There are instances where individuals have blatantly told the Church not to do temple work for their family and the Church honors that. Temple work is not about trying to "force" religion on people nor do we claim that they are mormon after we perform the ordinances. It's considered a service and a opportunity/blessing to those who never heard of Christ or come to accept Him after this life. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:513
| | 07/16/2008 3:22 PM |
Alert | Posted By itsadryheat on 07/16/2008 7:03 AM Is THIS where LDS get the idea that Joseph Smith was given instructions by God? Its so amazing how the LDS founders took a small section of a verse or two and built a whole thought around it. Remember, Jesus was talking to HIS APOSTLES...of which Joseph Smith certainly was not. You seem to need loan officers like Betty to prove your point. However, Jesus says, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the LIfe, No man comes to the Father except through me." and other verses to that effect, which, in essence, would mean, loan officers of the "OT way" are no longer needed. You want salvation, you go right to Jesus and the cross. Joseph Smith and others are loan officers of the OT way. So, itsa, you're there when Peter is preaching to the people after the ascension. How, exactly, do you "go right to Jesus and the cross" while rejecting Peter? Could you have accepted Jesus and the cross while rejecting Peter or dismissing him as "just a loan officer?"
Don't let Mormons fool you. They say they believe in the same thing. But, when you start to look at how they define God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Salvation, and places like Heaven, you will find it very different from what the Bible says. And non-Mormon Christianity is patterned exactly after "what the Bible says?" Which brand or flavor? | | | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:3313
| | 07/16/2008 4:03 PM |
Alert | | Nobody is married in heaven, that is an earthly gig........... | |
"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | RichTig
Posts:0
| | 07/16/2008 4:05 PM |
Alert | Of course theres no marriage in heaven. Its supposed to be perfect there, isnt it? 
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:241
| | 07/16/2008 4:08 PM |
Alert | So, itsa, you're there when Peter is preaching to the people after the ascension. How, exactly, do you "go right to Jesus and the cross" while rejecting Peter? Could you have accepted Jesus and the cross while rejecting Peter or dismissing him as "just a loan officer?"
Salvation is NOT through Peter Moinmoin. Salvation is through Jesus Christ. Why? Because he died on the cross for our sins. So, when I say go to Jesus Chrsit and look right to the cross, that is what I mean. I think you knew that already however. So, are you saying that salvation is somehow through Peter? Not even he made that claim. Are we talking Peter or Paul here? It doesn't matter, because salvation is not through either.
Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory. I Corinthians 1:28-31 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."[a] Footnotes:
And non-Mormon Christianity is patterned exactly after "what the Bible says?" Which brand or flavor?
What do you mean by this? | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:513
| | 07/16/2008 4:10 PM |
Alert | Posted By JasonY on 07/16/2008 4:03 PM
Nobody is married in heaven, that is an earthly gig...........  Seriously. Lot's of assumptions are bandied about by "Bible only" people that are not from the Bible. Extra credit if someone brings up the Sadducees hypothetical . . . | | | |
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|  | moinmoin
Posts:513
| | 07/16/2008 4:12 PM |
Alert | Posted By RichTig on 07/16/2008 4:05 PM Of course theres no marriage in heaven. Its supposed to be perfect there, isnt it?
 Isn't it about time for an avatar change? We've been looking at the Beana Lisa for how many months now? | | | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:3313
| | 07/16/2008 4:12 PM |
Alert | There ya go..... "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God. "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. (Matthew 22:29-30) | |
"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:3313
| | 07/16/2008 4:13 PM |
Alert | | On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Him and questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, Moses said, 'IF A MAN DIES, HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP AN OFFSPRING TO HIS BROTHER.' "Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother; so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. "And last of all, the woman died. "In the resurrection therefore whose wife of the seven shall she be? For they all had her." But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God. "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. (Matthew 22:23-30) | |
"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:241
| | 07/16/2008 4:16 PM |
Alert | Where in the Bible does it say that?
Where does it say IN THE BIBLE that there is marriage in heaven? Marriage is for people on
earth Moinmoin.
Just did a quick concordance review:
Marriage: From's God's persepctive, a covenant between a man and a woman that binds them together for life. God performed the very first marriage in Eden, and Jesus sanctioned marriage by being present at a wedding in Cana of Galilee.
Okay, so the definition is in life (not death, not afterlife). And I don't see any Biblical proof of marriage in heaven, but I will keep looking. If you can find a Bible verse to that effect, please share.Thank you Jason Y...I was just getting to that verse. | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:241
| | 07/16/2008 4:21 PM |
Alert | No, we get it from a belief that Joseph Smith spoke with Jesus Christ face to face and was ordained by resurrected messengers sent from Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
Scriptural support of this is secondary to the belief that the priesthood was physically restored.
Really? You don't say....scriptural support is secondary in your view? | | | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:3313
| | 07/16/2008 4:25 PM |
Alert | And people thought I haven't read the bible..........hehehehe......
(Matthew 7:15,16) Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits....
(2 Timothy 4:3,4) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth , and be turned aside to fables.
(Acts 20:29-31) For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves . Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
(Matthew 15:9) And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
(2 Peter 2:1) But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
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"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:523
| | 07/16/2008 4:33 PM |
Alert | Not really following, but stepping in every once in a while. . . I have to say, I sure am glad I'm Mormon! I'm actually crazy enough I want to KEEP my husband!   It would make me so sad to not be married in heaven. . . Which brings up my question: Why bother with marriage on earth if there is no marriage in heaven? | | | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:3313
| | 07/16/2008 4:35 PM |
Alert | | Everybody hangs out with everybody in heaven........why the need for marriage in heaven? Marriage on earth is for making babies. You can still hang out with your husband in heaven.... | |
"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:523
| | 07/16/2008 4:37 PM |
Alert | Ya know, Jason, I really like all those scriptures and I believe every one of them. . .
Have you ever considered that the false prophets may not actually CALL themselves prophets?
Just a thought.
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| | qwerty
Posts:156
| | 07/16/2008 4:41 PM |
Alert | Yes, there have been/are/will be false prophets and teachers. "You will know them by their fruits..." Key piece to this whole thing. Joseph Smith was the founder of a Church that has grown Internationally and that does a lot of service and good in the world. It's members are taught to be good people and to follow Christ's teachings. Do you really believe that this would represent fruit of the devil? Do you really feel that Mormons are "inwardly ravenous wolves"? I think this applies to those who use religion strictly to make money or for other personal gain. Or those like jim jones, mentioned before, who led people to suicide. That is bad fruit. | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:523
| | 07/16/2008 4:42 PM |
Alert | I might even be able to make babies in heaven  Similarly, I can make babies w/o a husband on earth so I hardly see marriage as a physical requirement - spiritual - yes. | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:241
| | 07/16/2008 6:17 PM |
Alert | Why bother with marriage on earth if there is no marriage in heaven?
I think heaven was created for worship, not for marriage. And, I also think that once we get to heaven earthly things will not matter.
4When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature
Daniel 7:27
Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'
Have you ever considered that the false prophets may not actually CALL themselves prophets?
Have you ever considered that they might just call themselves prophets knowing full well what they are saying is deceiving?
Yes, there have been/are/will be false prophets and teachers. "You will know them by their fruits..." Key piece to this whole thing. Joseph Smith was the founder of a Church that has grown Internationally and that does a lot of service and good in the world. It's members are taught to be good people and to follow Christ's teachings. Do you really believe that this would represent fruit of the devil? Do you really feel that Mormons are "inwardly ravenous wolves"? I think this applies to those who use religion strictly to make money or for other personal gain. Or those like jim jones, mentioned before, who led people to suicide. That is bad fruit.
its possible for a whole multitude of people to be deceived. We teach our children what we feel is right in our own lives correct? LDS have a history (not a bad one mind you) of multi-generational belief. I don't think that you are a ravenous wolf. I think that the message that is taught, because it is unGodly and not scripture based is (in itself) a ravenous wolf. It is absolutely possible that Joseph Smith started a religion, not really sure where it would go, where he could make up some of his own rules and laws and scriptures, that look and sounded a lot like mainstream Christianity, and it absolutely took off. It is quite possible that it grew faster than he would have anticipated and he got caught up in the hype that it brought to him. Through this religious thought he was able to institute polygamy, in which he, himself, had many wives. WOW! Look at what he was able to do by simply writing a scripture to say that it was god ordained?
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| | RichTig
Posts:0
| | 07/16/2008 6:48 PM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 07/16/2008 4:12 PM Posted By RichTig on 07/16/2008 4:05 PM Of course theres no marriage in heaven. Its supposed to be perfect there, isnt it?
You've got us there!  Isn't it about time for an avatar change? We've been looking at the Beana Lisa for how many months now?
Ok | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:608
| | 07/16/2008 7:06 PM |
Alert | Wow, my kingdom question has really taken off!
I know we are disagreeing on several points here but I have to say it puts a smile on my face to see people quoting scripture when they make their points. 1Thessalonians 5:21 "Test everything. Hold on to the good." or 1John 4:1 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." I see people taking an idea that does not match their own and proving it with scripture. YAY! | | | |
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