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| | Author | Messages | |
moinmoin
Posts:513
 | | 06/01/2008 9:50 PM |
 Alert | | (EEE) : Question for you. Do you agree with Qwerty that Children under the age of 8 can't sin? If so, can a 6 year old lie? Is lying a sin? Does the bible show support if someone is lying(or sinning) as a kid, it's not a sin? Mormon doctrine holds that young children can't sin because they aren't accountable for their actions and choices and can't be tempted by Satan. Can young children make choices and do things they know to be wrong? Of course, but they are learning themselves and this mortal world, and have a time window where they are not accountable before God and are fully covered by the atonement of Christ.
I think that we tend to blame our sins on being tempted by Satan, and I'm not sure that he's always justly blamed. We have inherent weakness in the flesh because of our mortality and can probably tempt ourselves without it being the devil every time. Thus, small children can do "sinful" things without it being that they were tempted to do so. Like I said, they are experimenting with their agency and ability to choose, and God grants them a period where they can do this without being accountable. Hopefully, their parents lay a proper foundation for when they are accountable.
Here are the relevant scriptures on this:(Moroni 8:7-12) 7 For immediately after I had learned these things of you I inquired of the Lord concerning the matter. And the word of the Lord came to me by the power of the Holy Ghost, saying:
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism! (Doctrine and Covenants 74:7) But little children are holy, being sanctified through the atonement of Jesus Christ Doctrine and Covenants 20:71 No one can be received into the church of Christ unless he has arrived unto the years of accountability before God, and is capable of repentance. Doctrine and Covenants 18:42 For all men must repent and be baptized, and not only men, but women, and children who have arrived at the years of accountability. (Doctrine and Covenants 29:46-49) But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten;
47 Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me;
48 For it is given unto them even as I will, according to mine own pleasure, that great things may be required at the hand of their fathers.
49 And, again, I say unto you, that whoso having knowledge, have I not commanded to repent? (Doctrine and Covenants 68:25) And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.
26 For this shall be a law unto the inhabitants of Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized.
27 And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands.
28 And they shall also teach their children to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord.
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| | moinmoin
Posts:513
| | 06/01/2008 10:08 PM |
Alert | | (EEE) : Well, if he was so concerned about getting Christianity right because the Bible was supposedly corrupted, he should of spent his time correcting the Bible [instead of] adding new books. If God truly wanted Joseph Smith to restore what was missing, then he would of kept him alive to finish his revision.
(itsadryheat) : I agree with EEE, if God had wanted JS to complete this new, more complete testament, then it would be completed today, accepted and widely used. Again, you don't apply your same assumptions to the Bible. Using this logic and these assumptions, one would argue that if God had wanted Israel to enter the promised land, He would have taken them in right away and not have had them wander in the wilderness for 40 years until all but Caleb and Joshua had died. Keep in mind that, according to the Bible, God twice wanted to annihilate Israel and start over with Moses and his posterity, only to be "talked down from the ledge" by Moses Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation . . . And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. (Exodus 32:10, 14) I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they . . . And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word (Numbers 14:12, 20) The fact is that God works with our agency without infringing upon it, but His will and His work is always accomplished, even when we fail him or evil men exercise their agency.
The Latter-day scriptures restore much of the "plain and precious truths" that were removed from the Bible, so the JST (Joseph Smith Translation) wasn't essential to "get Christianity right." You insist that God would have done it this way or that way, but can't He have chosen to do it some other way, such as through the Book of Mormon and latter-day revelation?
We testify that He has done exactly that. | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:241
| | 06/02/2008 6:30 AM |
Alert | The Latter-day scriptures restore much of the "plain and precious truths" that were removed from the Bible, so the JST (Joseph Smith Translation) wasn't essential to "get Christianity right." You insist that God would have done it this way or that way, but can't He have chosen to do it some other way, such as through the Book of Mormon and latter-day revelation?
But would God contradict himself? The Book of Mormon and Mormon "Plain and precious truths" are so contrary to the Bible, that it is hard to believe that God would say (about the virgin birth, for example) the Spirit came on her and she was pregnant and then (according to your statements) well, it really wasn't the spirit, it was me. And it really wasn't a virgin birth, but actually it was my gamete and her gamete....It doesn't make any sense to do that. Another example would be the issue of sin. LDS have a softer version of sin and judgement. The Bible says that everyone will be judged and at the judgement, either God knows you or he doesn't. If he doesn't, you go to hell. Its harsh, but its Truth. The LDS virigin says well, hmmm...maybe everyone can get into at least the first heaven and then only those who are "religious" can get into the second heaven...but the third heaven? That is set aside for those devout LDS who have gone through the temple ceremonies and who have presented their works to me (God)...well, the third heaven, that's for them. But, only if JS says they can come in. This is so contrary to what the Bible says. Its contradictory. God doesn't contradict. So either God is lying or Joseph Smith is lying.
Do we need more examples? Let's talk about the plain and precious truths that you spoke of. Who decided (or currently decides) what these plain and precious truths are? At one point in LDS histroy, the plain and precious was to deny people of color into the "priesthood." But, then when that train of thought became socially unpopular, okay, then let's change the plain and precious truths to say that now people of color could enter into the priesthood. But, only if they can trace their lineage (LDS are big on family trees). Which can be very difficult for some of these people of color because of their own histories.
but can't He have chosen to do it some other way, such as through the Book of Mormon and latter-day revelation?
So God would only choose to reveal these things to the Latter Day saints? There are many Bible believing, God loving churchs out here and all over the world, these revelations would have been made to all of us simultaneously I would think.
Let's talk about LDS version of the Trinity vs Bible Trinity. There are so many areas where the LDS version directly contradicts that Bible. Either God is who He says He is or He isn't.If JS version of things were true, where is the physical proof of these places, people, and lands that were to have existed? There isn't even a town that was named after some of the places he said existed in the BOM and other books. Not even a derivitive of a town, similiar to those names or people. Nothing. Just his word that this occurred and no one has been able to find a shred of evidence of it existence. Whereas the Bible? The people, places, towns, cities, are documented. There is historical evidence of people having existed where the Bible said they were to have existed. There are cities and towns STILL with the names of the Bible. There are peoples existing today STILL with the names of the people of the Bible. This cannot be refuted. | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:523
| | 06/02/2008 8:31 AM |
Alert | Itsa,
Your post sounds like you are bubbling over in anger. I can just feel your frustration. . .
I have talked about contradictions before. It is only a contradiction if you refuse to set aside your interpretation, and allow a different interpretation to become admissable.
But, only if they can trace their lineage (LDS are big on family trees). Which can be very difficult for some of these people of color because of their own histories.
I cannot even fathom where you got this information. Once the priesthood was made available to people of color it was made available to ANY that were worthy. Lineage was not even taken into consideration.
I am sincerely hoping you are just confused with the fact that once they were ordained to the priesthood they would have a 'line of authority' which can be traced back to Christ Himself. The church keeps records of who is ordained and who performed the ordination, and has from the beginning, which makes this possible. BUT the whole, "only if they can trace their lineage" is simply a lie - which contains not an ounce of truth.
There isn't even a town that was named after some of the places he said existed in the BOM and other books.
Don't visit Utah much do you.  (yes, I know you are talking about a town or place that was named BEFORE JS received the plates - but I couldn't resist!)
So God would only choose to reveal these things to the Latter Day saints? There are many Bible believing, God loving churchs out here and all over the world, these revelations would have been made to all of us simultaneously I would think.
We do not believe the prophet is a prophet only to the LDS members. He is a prophet to the world. This kind of falls back to the 'Line of Authority' thing. (Was this discussed in more detail anywhere yet?) | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:241
| | 06/02/2008 8:46 AM |
Alert | Its hard to get a feeling thorugh a post...because I am neither angry or frustrated. Its hard to convey a passion via a forum. And I guess I feel strongly and passionately about the idea tha tGod would not contradict himself by saying one thing in the Bible and then changing it (if only by degrees) in the Book of Mormon. Which area are you thinking I am angry in? I don't think that has been my tone throughout. I just re-read my post and talking about sin and judgement, I guess could look angry to someone reading it. But, its a harsh reality. Its God's Truth. When talking about the virgin birth and whether it was really a virgin birth or not...still I don't think God would say one thing in the Bible and then change it in another book. God seems clear about not adding or taking away [from the Bible]. Sorry, but it seems like JS added and took away from the Bible those things he did not want or understand. Whatelse? When asking for historical, physical proof of persons, places, and things? Why would that seem angry? I think if LDS historians or anthropologist, archaelogist, could produce something...anything...that the world could actually date back to when JS said it happened...that might be something. But, alas, nothing. Take it as anger if you need to. I am not angry. I am not frustrated. I just don't want to see people...people I know...stand before God and He say to them, "depart from me" because they believed this. I would hope that they would pick up a Bible- maybe one written in contemporary English--though I have nothing against the KJV--and read for themselves. Read verses in context and ask questions. I have talked about contradictions before. It is only a contradiction if you refuse to set aside your interpretation, and allow a different interpretation to become admissable. And I am still waiting for these contradictions that keep getting pointed out. You can't contradict the Bible against the BOM because, while the Bible has been proven, according to a wider audience, the BOM hasn't been (to anyone except LDS). So, please show me the pages in this post where there have been contradictions pointed out. Maybe I missed them...this is a long post. Or, reprint them again. That would be great. | | | |
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| | RichTig
Posts:0
| | 06/02/2008 9:21 AM |
Alert | I think its great how religion brings people together. Well, as long as you agree 100% with their version. If not, then your going to burn. | | | |
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|  | EEE
Posts:374
| | 06/03/2008 7:42 PM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 06/01/2008 9:20 PM
1. Do you consider Roman Catholicism to be Christian? What about the Eastern Orthodox churches?
2. Specifically, what other Christian churches (that is, churches that profess belief in Jesus Christ, even though you feel it’s a “false Christ,&rdquo besides Jehovah’s Witnesses, do you consider to be non-Christian? I am pretty sure I've answered at least question 1 for you already, but I know our topics can get lengthy so you probably missed it.(lol, I try to comeback a few days later to respond to something you've made and I can't find it some times) Let me give you what I believe is the biblical definition of who are Christians: Any one who believes in Salvation by faith alone by Jesus who is the one and only True God of the bible. This person will show true repentence of their sins. 1) In general Roman Catholics are not Christians, because they have an emphasis on works. However, I know folks who profess, salvation by faith alone. I would consider them Christians. It's not about the group but the individual's heart. I don't know much in general how today's Eastern Orthodox church operates. Even thought they claim to be orthodox doesn't mean they are. I know somebody who is Eastern Orthodox and he believes in Salvation by Faith alone, but I don't know if they all do. They might. 2) Oneness Pentecostals, 7th day adventist(only the ones who think keeping the sabbeth is required for salvation), Lutherans and methodist(the ones who believe they must be good in addition to faith), that group in New Mexico led by Michael Travesser, The Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda group, I'm sure there is more but that is what comes to mind. And I believe there are Baptist and Calvinist who are not Christians, if they truly don't believe in Christ but perhaps is in the "routine of Jesus", because of their upbringing. The point is a Christian is somebody who truly believes in Christ alone for their Salvation, it doesn't matter what group somebody belongs to. Saying a bunch of words, doesn't make somebody a Christian, it must be a true repentence. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 06/03/2008 7:49 PM |
Alert | Here is a post I had on page 11 from this thread. You must have missed it. That is why I was shocked you would make such a comment after I had just posted this. Me being involved in these recent forum debates against Mormons has nothing personal against Mormons. I've been involved since the beginning of 85239.com defending the gospel against every type of false teaching. My posting history on here proves that. Many of those topics were on the old style 85239 which have been deleted. On these forums I have publicly debated against Roman Catholics, Atheist, oneness pentecostals, and Mormons. Not to mention the many private message discussions I have had with individuals. Arizona has a large Mormon population, so that is why most of the topics seem to involve Mormonism and not any other religion. I try my best to reflect the true teaching of those false religions, so I have a basis for my argument. My goal then and my goal now is to proclaim the true gospel of Jesus Christ regardless of who is involved. If people will take the time and notice every false religion's plan for Salvation is Work based: Roman Catholic, Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, etc. All have some type of focus on Works. Only the true Gospel of Christ, Salvation by faith alone is the only way to be saved. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Good Works is an evidence of Salvation not a requirement to get saved which is proven through out the New Testament. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:513
| | 06/05/2008 11:39 AM |
Alert | Thanks, EEE! Specific churches you consider to be non-Christian other than Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses were what I was looking for.
You are welcome to your definition of Christianity, but I don't think one that excludes Roman Catholics "in general," and Lutherand and Methodists "who believe they must be good in addition to faith" is very meaningful or useful. Still, I have to give it to you for being consistent.
You wrote:Saying a bunch of words, doesn't make somebody a Christian, it must be a true repentance. How is this not a work? You are talking about something (true repentance) that some people do and others do not, and the doing of which determines, in your view, whether one is saved or not. How is that different from what you criticize in other Christian churches?
Thanks!
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 06/05/2008 1:52 PM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 06/05/2008 11:39 AM
Thanks, EEE! Specific churches you consider to be non-Christian other than Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses were what I was looking for.
You are welcome to your definition of Christianity, but I don't think one that excludes Roman Catholics "in general," and Lutherand and Methodists "who believe they must be good in addition to faith" is very meaningful or useful. Still, I have to give it to you for being consistent. I understand this view is not popular, but I'm not alone in this view. Any true Christian should share this same view, after they recognize the differences in beliefs.
You wrote: Saying a bunch of words, doesn't make somebody a Christian, it must be a true repentance. How is this not a work? You are talking about something (true repentance) that some people do and others do not, and the doing of which determines, in your view, whether one is saved or not. How is that different from what you criticize in other Christian churches?
Thanks! Great question! I worded that wrong. I'm glad you're on your game! Let me fix that. "Saying a bunch of words doesn't make somebody a Christian. After a belief in Christ, a true Christian will exhibit true repentance" Thanks | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:3313
| | 06/05/2008 4:05 PM |
Alert | Faith and works go hand in hand, one without the other is heresy..........
By the way....the Jews, Muslims, and Christians worship the same one God.......monotheism.... | |
"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:513
| | 06/06/2008 2:16 PM |
Alert | Posted By JasonY on 06/05/2008 4:05 PM
By the way....the Jews, Muslims, and Christians worship the same one God....... I think I just heard EEE's brain explode!  | | | |
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| | ChimneyDuck
Posts:244
| | 06/06/2008 3:27 PM |
Alert | I'd define Christianity as a religious sect that follows Jesus, the Christ and Savior.
I think that narrowing down the definition to specifics that just your sects beliefs gets a little petty. Especially if you exclude the Roman Catholics from where most sects derived from and was pretty much the only game in town in Europe for a millenium. | |
http://www.maricopabikeclub.com - Join us for a bicycle ride. | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 06/06/2008 11:07 PM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 06/06/2008 2:16 PM Posted By JasonY on 06/05/2008 4:05 PM
By the way....the Jews, Muslims, and Christians worship the same one God....... I think I just heard EEE's brain explode!
LOL, you are starting to know me too well!  HA HA, that was funny!
Sometimes "drive bys" with no substance, are not worthy of a response. moinmoin, I know you believe "Christians" believe in the same God. Do you believe Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God? | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 06/06/2008 11:17 PM |
Alert | Posted By ChimneyDuck on 06/06/2008 3:27 PM
I'd define Christianity as a religious sect that follows Jesus, the Christ and Savior.
I think that narrowing down the definition to specifics that just your sects beliefs gets a little petty. Especially if you exclude the Roman Catholics from where most sects derived from and was pretty much the only game in town in Europe for a millenium. If you are interested in church history, take some time and do some research on "catholic" and "Catholic" in the first millenium. The capitol "C" makes all the difference. I believe I am part of the "catholic" Church. "True Christians" are part of the "catholic" church. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 06/06/2008 11:29 PM |
Alert | Posted By ChimneyDuck on 06/06/2008 3:27 PM
I'd define Christianity as a religious sect that follows Jesus, the Christ and Savior.
As would most of America. A Christian is a follower of Christ. So yea they can be called Christians, but now a days you need to have a qualifier to which Christ you are following.
If you ask a Mormon, Baptist, Jehovah Witness, Oneness Pentecostal to describe Christ in detail, you will get 4 different answers. So saying you're a Christian in today's day in age is not what you might think it is. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | hastings1066
Posts:995
| | 06/07/2008 1:44 PM |
Alert | Anyone who reads the Koran will find that it describes a very different god from the God described in the New Testament. | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:241
| | 06/07/2008 7:39 PM |
Alert | Hey! You guys have been at the party...and I have missed it!- LOL
How is this not a work? You are talking about something (true repentance) that some people do and others do not, and the doing of which determines, in your view, whether one is saved or not. How is that different from what you criticize in other Christian churches?
So are you trying to summarize that EEE was saying that in order for true repentence you have to work for it? I am glad EEE clarified the statement. What do Mormons do with Romans 10:1-5 it reads,
1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Herein lies a difference between LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christianity. Christians don't work toward our faith/perfection. We are made perfect in Christ. You can have as much zeal as you want...but without knowing and understanding this KEY then its all for nothing. This is not to say that Christians have no sin. On the contrary, we sin all the time. But, out standing wtih Christ is perfect since we are in Christ. It is hard to become perfect when you have to keep all the commandments recorded in the Bible and the mormon sacred books. | | | |
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| | JCarp
Posts:47
| | 06/10/2008 10:04 AM |
Alert | ... What do Mormons do with Romans 10:1-5…
I guess we use the whole bible to define our position of Faith and Works. I agree with Paul (and you) that no matter how much “zeal” we have, our righteousness can not save us, only Christ. Yet I also agree with James (Chapter 2: 18-20):
18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
All of Chapter two is just great (actually the whole bible is) but due to space constraints I focused just on these few verses.
On another note, I have problems with one of your other statements...
…Christians don't work toward our faith/perfection…
Well maybe they should start. Just imagine how better this world would be if all the Christians in it actually started following the example that Christ gave us without having the defeatist attitude of...
...It is hard to become perfect when you have to keep all the commandments...
We can strive for perfection through our faith in doing good works. And we should always “continue to work out your (our) salvation with fear and trembling”. I wrap this up with James Chapter 2 again:
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
We (as Mormons) believe that works do not save us, but our faith is justified by our works. | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:241
| | 06/10/2008 11:48 AM |
Alert | | The bible says that we are made perfect through belief in Christ. Its not something that we need to work for. I think you understood that statement when I wrote it. What we do with our lives AFTER acceptance of Jesus is also important too. But what we do is a result, not a cause of Christian belief/faith. | | | |
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