 |
Business Directory |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
Coupons |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
Classifieds |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
| | Author | Messages | |
JAG
Posts:682


 | | 08/26/2008 9:11 PM |
Alert | We are studying Americas now in a religion class and the book covered a few issues linking Mesoamerica with the Mediterranean. | | | |
|
| | ChimneyDuck
Posts:244

 | | 08/27/2008 9:13 AM |
Alert | | There are plenty of examples of American Indians having facial hair, you can take a look at photographs, you don't need to resort to artifacts. | | http://www.maricopabikeclub.com - Join us for a bicycle ride. | |
|
| | moinmoin
Posts:513


 | | 08/27/2008 10:03 AM |
Alert | Posted By ChimneyDuck on 08/27/2008 9:13 AM
There are plenty of examples of American Indians having facial hair, you can take a look at photographs, you don't need to resort to artifacts. There's facial hair, and there's facial hair, though. Full beards are not common among American Indians; even less so the further south you go. Yet, artifacts demonstrate the presence of beards that are typical of non-Western hemisphere peoples. Not to mention the Semitic features in some of the above carvings.As previously mentioned, there was a pervasive legend of a bearded white god they called Quetzelcoatl who visited them, brought about peace and properity, and promised to return. This was initially why the Aztecs under Montezuma welcomed the Spaniards with open arms, only to realize too late, that they were mistaken. The fact that he was bearded and white were the main physical traits emphasized. Here's a representation of Quetzelcoatl from Oaxaca: 
And from the Yucatan: 
And a jade depiction now housed in a museum in Paris: 
The kicker is this stained glass window from a Catholic Church in Mexico: 
Looks kind of non-Mesoamerican, doesn't he?  | | | |
|
| | DaybyDay
Posts:314

 | | 08/27/2008 10:25 AM |
Alert | | So, are Mormons making part their claim based on the length of facial hair? | | | |
|
| | moinmoin
Posts:513


 | | 08/27/2008 10:51 AM |
Alert | Not length of facial hair, but the relative presence of it. Body hair (not just facial) is not a dominant trait among Amerindians, especially in comparison to many other peoples. It is also nearly completely absent among Asians as well (nearly, not completely). How many moustaches or full beards did you see among the Chinese in the crowds at the Olympics?
My question for those who seek to cast doubt upon the historicity of the Book of Mormon: If all indigenous Western Hemisphere peoples are supposed to have arisen solely from Asia, where did the beards (and Semitic features) come from? And where did they go? 
To clarify, this is just one of many supplemental evidences, and by no means a main emphasis in providing evidences for the Book of Mormon. | | | |
|
| | DaybyDay
Posts:314

 | | 08/27/2008 9:34 PM |
Alert | | So who can verify what Joseph Smith said he saw/found on the hill Kimorah? Who else did the "angel"s how himself to? | | | |
|
| | JAG
Posts:682


 | | 08/27/2008 9:48 PM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 08/27/2008 10:03 AM The kicker is this stained glass window from a Catholic Church in Mexico: 
Looks kind of non-Mesoamerican, doesn't he?  My only issue with that is the artist most likely made him european due to his influence and cultural norm. Look at the portraits of the Last Supper by DeVinci, John was certainly girlish, but most young men were portrayed as girlish back then. Take a look at Lady of Guadalope, she is very Mesoamerican. But then again so are people from the Middle East.  | | | |
|
| | moinmoin
Posts:513


 | | 08/28/2008 9:57 AM |
Alert | Posted By DaybyDay on 08/27/2008 9:34 PM
So who can verify what Joseph Smith said he saw/found on the hill Cumorah? Who else did the "angel"s how himself to? Each edition of the Book of Mormon contains the testimonies of the "three" and "eight" witnesses.http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/contents The three witnesses were shown the plates and other artifacts by an angel and heard the voice of God testify audibly to the truthfulness of the work. Joseph Smith was also commanded to allow others to handle and examine the plates so that they could testify to the world. These witnesses' experience was a purely "physical" one, without an angel or voice from heaven, which was wise on the part of God, I think, because their testimony balances the spiritual testimony of the three witnesses. Six of these eleven witnesses left the Church at various times, but all remained firm that they had seen and handled the plates and were convinced that they were genuine and that Joseph Smith had received them from God. David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses, never returned to the Church but is on record in many newspapers confirming his testimony (as the last surviving witness to the Book of Mormon plates, he was sought after for interviews, most of which sought to see if he would renounce his testimony after so many years had elapsed). David Whitmer even went so far late in life as to swear out an affadavit, have it notorized, and attach hundreds of character references from his town in Richmond, Missouri in response to an article in Encyclopedia Brittanica that stated that he had denied his testimony. He emphatically denied this and confirmed that he had seen and spoken with an angel, heard God's voice, and handled the plates. Near his death, he published a book "An Address to All Believers in Christ," where he reiterated his testimony of the Book of Mormon and of Joseph Smith as a prophet and sought to explain why he had left the Church and why he had not returned to it. | | | |
|
| | moinmoin
Posts:513


 | | 08/28/2008 10:19 AM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 08/27/2008 9:48 PM My only issue with that is the artist most likely made him european due to his influence and cultural norm. Look at the portraits of the Last Supper by DeVinci, John was certainly girlish, but most young men were portrayed as girlish back then. Take a look at Lady of Guadalope, she is very Mesoamerican. But then again so are people from the Middle East. This is a good point. African Christian art depicts Christ as black, Chinese Christian art depicts Christ as Chinese, and Rennaissence art portrays Bible scenes with people dressed like 14th/15th century Europeans. So, the depiction of Quetzelcoatl in this stained glass window could reflect the European heritage of the artist. But the legends about Quetzelcoatl as a white, bearded god who established peace adn prosperity among them and promised to return remain. The caption under "Quetzelcoatl" (which isn't very legible pasted onto the posts here) reads "grangenio de las civilizaciones pre cortesianas," which seems pretty clear to me with my limited Spanish to refer to Quetzelcoatl as the founder of civilization before Cortez conquered the Aztecs. I wonder why fundamentalist Christian critics of the Book of Mormon so vigorously fight against the very idea that Jesus visited other people after His resurrection. He told His apostles "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" (John 10:16), and fulfilled this in visiting some of His other sheep in the Western Hemisphere after His resurrection 1 And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have aother sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister. 2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them. 3 But I have received a acommandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall bhear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them. 4 And I command you that ye shall awrite these sayings after I am gone, that if it so be that my people at Jerusalem, they who have seen me and been with me in my ministry, do not ask the Father in my name, that they may receive a knowledge of you by the Holy Ghost, and also of the other tribes whom they know not of, that these sayings which ye shall write shall be kept and shall be manifested unto the bGentiles, that through the fulness of the Gentiles, the remnant of their seed, who shall be scattered forth upon the face of the earth because of their cunbelief, may be brought in, or may be brought to a dknowledge of me, their Redeemer. 5 And then will I agather them in from the four quarters of the earth; and then will I fulfil the bcovenant which the Father hath made unto all the people of the chouse of Israel. 6 And blessed are the aGentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which bwitnesses unto them of me and of the Father. 7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the alatter day shall the truth come unto the bGentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them. So, we believe that Jesus visited the lost tribes of Israel as well, and we will some day have their record of His visitations to go along with the Bible and Book of Mormon accounts. | | | |
|
| | cholo bandito
Posts:825

 | | 08/28/2008 7:29 PM |
Alert | Moinmoin has his faith and the rest of you beating up on him have your own faith. Why do people of different faiths feel the need to bash other faiths? Are you so insecure in your own faith that you have to belittle the rest? Believe in yours and let others believe in theirs. Peace. | |
I plan on living forever, so far so good. Cigarettes are stupid. If you are going to smoke something, it might as well get you high.
| |
|
| | JAG
Posts:682


 | | 08/28/2008 10:48 PM |
Alert | "I wonder why fundamentalist Christian critics of the Book of Mormon so vigorously fight against the very idea that Jesus visited other people after His resurrection. He told His apostles "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" (John 10:16), and fulfilled this in visiting some of His other sheep in the Western Hemisphere after His resurrection" Wel becuase you did not do this or believe in that and you cant really understand, blah, blah, blah. But but but, balh, blabl, babbble, booble. I really do not have a issue with Jesus talking to other groups, but then again I do not attempt to chain God to a book of paper either. | | | |
|
| | JAG
Posts:682


 | | 08/28/2008 10:49 PM |
Alert | Moinmoin has his faith and the rest of you beating up on him have your own faith. Why do people of different faiths feel the need to bash other faiths? Are you so insecure in your own faith that you have to belittle the rest? Believe in yours and let others believe in theirs. Peace. Where is the fun in that? Although I am guilty of this as well, but I also dislike bullies. | | | |
|
| | cholo bandito
Posts:825

 | | 08/28/2008 11:17 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 08/28/2008 10:49 PM Moinmoin has his faith and the rest of you beating up on him have your own faith. Why do people of different faiths feel the need to bash other faiths? Are you so insecure in your own faith that you have to belittle the rest? Believe in yours and let others believe in theirs. Peace. Where is the fun in that? Although I am guilty of this as well, but I also dislike bullies. Who is the bully? | |
I plan on living forever, so far so good. Cigarettes are stupid. If you are going to smoke something, it might as well get you high.
| |
|
| | JasonY
Posts:3313


 | | 08/29/2008 9:31 AM |
Alert | | Cats are the work of the devil........... | | "My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
|
| | cholo bandito
Posts:825

 | | 08/30/2008 9:24 AM |
Alert | Posted By JasonY on 08/29/2008 9:31 AM
Cats are the work of the devil........... Espeically the ones with assault weapons......... | |
I plan on living forever, so far so good. Cigarettes are stupid. If you are going to smoke something, it might as well get you high.
| |
|
| | JAG
Posts:682


 | | 08/30/2008 11:49 PM |
Alert | "Who is the bully?" If using logic and scripture to show that someone is being hypocritical in their condemnation of others faith, and pointing out that their own belief is faulty is being a bully. Then yes I am. | | | |
|
| |
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.6 |
|
|
|