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| | Author | Messages | |
moinmoin
Posts:413
 | | 05/24/2008 10:12 AM |
 Alert | | itsadryheat wrote: Why do you need to "re-write" then if you don't want to call it plagiarism of the Bible? I think the term “plagiarism” is being thrown around too loosely. The Book of Mormon quotes sections of the Bible, which is to be expected if it is what it claims to be. It always states that the records and the prophets are being quoted, however. The Lord instructed Lehi and his colony to take with them the writings of the prophets upon “plates of brass” that were kept among the Josephite tribes (Ephraim and Manasseh).1 Nephi 5:10 And after they had given thanks unto the God of Israel, my father, Lehi, took the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass, and he did search them from the beginning.
11 And he beheld that they did contain the five books of Moses, which gave an account of the creation of the world, and also of Adam and Eve, who were our first parents;
12 And also a record of the Jews from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah;
13 And also the prophecies of the holy prophets, from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah; and also many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah.
14 And it came to pass that my father, Lehi, also found upon the plates of brass a genealogy of his fathers; wherefore he knew that he was a descendant of Joseph; yea, even that Joseph who was the son of Jacob, who was sold into Egypt, and who was preserved by the hand of the Lord, that he might preserve his father, Jacob, and all his household from perishing with famine.
15 And they were also led out of captivity and out of the land of Egypt, by that same God who had preserved them.
16 And thus my father, Lehi, did discover the genealogy of his fathers. And Laban also was a descendant of Joseph, wherefore he and his fathers had kept the records. Nephi saw, in vision, our modern Bible and its vital role in preaching the gospel in our day. He saw that the Bible “is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many;” and the Book of Mormon quotes from prophets not in our Old Testament: Zenos, Zenock, Neum, and Ezias.1 Nephi 13:23 And he said: Behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew. And I, Nephi, beheld it; and he said unto me: The book that thou beholdest is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles. By far the most quoted prophet in the Book of Mormon is Isaiah, although over half of the verses quoted differ from the King James Version, and about 200 verses have the same wording as the KJV (The Book of Mormon quotes the resurrected Christ as teaching the people in the Western Hemisphere “And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah” (3 Nephi 23:1)1 Nephi 19:22-24 Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, did teach my brethren these things; and it came to pass that I did read many things to them, which were engraven upon the plates of brass, that they might know concerning the doings of the Lord in other lands, among people of old.
23 And I did read many things unto them which were written in the books of Moses; but that I might more fully persuade them to believe in the Lord their Redeemer I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet Isaiah; for I did liken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our profit and learning.
24 Wherefore I spake unto them, saying: Hear ye the words of the prophet, ye who are a remnant of the house of Israel, a branch who have been broken off; hear ye the words of the prophet, which were written unto all the house of Israel, and liken them unto yourselves, that ye may have hope as well as your brethren from whom ye have been broken off; for after this manner has the prophet written. With all this, the question then becomes: why do you feel that prophets quoting from the scriptures constitutes “plagiarism?” | | | |
|
| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 05/24/2008 10:24 AM |
Alert | Me being involved in these recent forum debates against Mormons has nothing personal against Mormons. I've been involved since the beginning of 85239.com defending the gospel against every type of false teaching. My posting history on here proves that. Many of those topics were on the old style 85239 which have been deleted. On these forums I have publicly debated against Roman Catholics, Atheist, oneness pentecostals, and Mormons. Not to mention the many private message discussions I have had with individuals. Arizona has a large Mormon population, so that is why most of the topics seem to involve Mormonism and not any other religion. I try my best to reflect the true teaching of those false religions, so I have a basis for my argument. My goal then and my goal now is to proclaim the true gospel of Jesus Christ regardless of who is involved. If people will take the time and notice every false religion's plan for Salvation is Work based: Roman Catholic, Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, etc. All have some type of focus on Works. Only the true Gospel of Christ, Salvation by faith alone is the only way to be saved. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Good Works is an evidence of Salvation not a requirement to get saved which is proven through out the New Testament. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
|
| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 05/24/2008 10:27 AM |
Alert | | itsadryheat wrote: I think it would be lovely to hear from people who have been in the position of trying to have their names removed and experienced some of what has been exprienced. They would have the greatest testimony in these regards. So, if you are out there keeping up with this discussion, please sign on and add what you have experienced, why you left the LDS church, and so on. I think it would be a great benefit for all of us involved to hear your voice as well. Such testimony would be interesting, but it would be one-sided and self-serving. Strict confidentiality policies mean that priesthood leaders involved with an excommunication will never discuss the matter, so the only version of events would be coming from the former member. Most people who have been excommunicated are in a state of repentance and are trying to do what they need to do to be rebaptized; people who are criticizing the Church and their excommunication are clearly not seeking for this. Would their testimony not be regarded as agenda-driven and one-sided, especially in the absence of responses from the priesthood leaders involved?
Here’s the “Solomon’s test” I would request of anyone making public claims about his or her excommunication: are you willing to make your official letter of excommunication public? I don’t recommend this, as it’s a private matter, but for those making claims about their excommunication, it would be relevant information. This letter sets forth the decision and counsel given to the individual. I doubt if anyone would allow skeptics to see it, though, as it would almost certainly neutralize claims people make about their excommunication, especially when such claims involve allegations that they were excommunicated solely for requesting that their name be removed from Church rolls. There would always be another reason or reasons, and people trying to harm the Church’s reputation want to be portrayed as a martyr persecuted by the church hierarchy, not someone who was excommunicated for cause (e.g., vocal and public apostasy, serious transgression, etc.). | | | |
|
| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 05/24/2008 2:43 PM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 05/24/2008 10:27 AM
This letter sets forth the decision and counsel given to the individual. I doubt if anyone would allow skeptics to see it, though, as it would almost certainly neutralize claims people make about their excommunication, especially when such claims involve allegations that they were excommunicated solely for requesting that their name be removed from Church rolls. There would always be another reason or reasons, and people trying to harm the Church’s reputation want to be portrayed as a martyr persecuted by the church hierarchy, not someone who was excommunicated for cause (e.g., vocal and public apostasy, serious transgression, etc.).
Of course the excommunicated letter is not going to say, "This individual is excommunicated for asking to have their names removed from the church rolls." It will either include untrue information or an over-exaggerated claim since they of course now deny their church doctrine.
| |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
|
| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 05/24/2008 3:11 PM |
Alert | Just for the record, I am not saying that every time a person ask for their names to be removed from the church rolls they are excommunicated. I am just saying it does happens. My personal belief is, it's based off of that person's status and/or length of membership in the chuch and how much influence they have. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
|
| | itsadryheat
Posts:233
| | 05/24/2008 6:43 PM |
Alert | I am sorry. I have been gone all day but have had a chance to catch up right now. I personally have problems with
prepared, worthy, and capable when talking about someone being able to take temple ordinances. The Lord came to make us worthy. That is what he shed His blood on the cross for. It is not up to man to decide someones worthiness. If we are made Christians through Jesus Christ, then HE made us worthy when He died on the cross.
Honestly,
Have you ever been to an LDS church service, invited the missionaries into your home, or read the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, etc.? . I don't know that missionaries would want to come into my home and may stop at the sidewalk when they see my crosses in my garden. I think LDS have a problem talking to Christians because of some of the issues brought up in this forum.Such testimony would be interesting, but it would be one-sided and self-serving. Why self serving? These are their personal experiences. Why discourage them from speaking before they even began? And for that matter. why even have a letter of excommunication? This all sounds so legalistic and what the Bible warns us about...Pharisees they were. I also wanted to reiterate was EEE said. I am certainly not anti-Mormon (which is a term thrown around here when you disagree) but am pro-Truth. If I have the opportunity to share Jesus then I will. If you knew me face to face, this is something that you would know for yourself. I may be a little more forthright here on the forum...because when talking to people, there are obviously other factors that go into it. But these are things I woudl share with you face to face too. | | | |
|
|  | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 05/24/2008 8:53 PM |
Alert | The whole works vs grace thing is so symantical to me. I have yet to really see a difference - that is, unless MS Christians believe a person can say, "I believe Jesus Christ is my Savior", do nothing else and BE saved. Below is are some posts from another board I frequent. In this particular discussions - the MS Christians I was discussing with ALL agreed, just saying the words were not enough - their reason: If a person just says words, and never does works, then they likely do not truly have faith in Christ. I agree with them. Here is the discription I used there to explain our belief. I've noticed, much of what people will argue with are the symantical words. Here are the entries: 1. The LDS belief on grace is vastly misunderstood. The belief is that works ARE a commandment. We follow the commandments because we love God and we want to show our love to Him. If we were to only follow a commandment because we think that will get us where we want to be, then we aren't really following the commandment. I don't find that to be different than what MS Christianity teaches. In fact, the difference I see is that the LDS church does not teach the idea of being saved at baptism. We believe we are saved through the atonement AFTER death and are judged on our love of Christ - which is eminated through our works. Does that make sense? IOW, we are commanded to do works - because we love God, we follow His commandments. . . Ack - I need to stop my thought process. . . It is refreshing to hear people say, "saying it isn't enough" What I generally hear is: "It all depends on what is in your heart. But you can love Christ and still not do works." THIS to me, leaves no reason to strive to be good, and seems so empty. I believe I hear it enough that I have wondered about the origins of the belief of saved at baptism - no need for works, and the the effects of that belief on society. As a side note - and I have NOT felt this way in any of the above comments - I don't like it that people seem to think I only want to be a good person because I am trying to get my place in 'the kingdom' - in reality, I try to be a good person because I love God and He has asked me to be a good person - I want to please Him, and show love to Him, so I do the best I can. It isn't in order to 'gain' anything - it is simply for the same reasons as what appears to be any other Christians. . . 2. The basic LDS belief is: Faith without works is dead. I think a lot of times this is taken to mean we believe we can save ourselves. However, if what everyone here is describing is what is truly believed by other churches (which I'm certain it is) then the LDS belief is truly no different. Here's the thing though: true, saving faith *will* result in a person's "works" changing and becoming more inline with God's character. The Bible says that we will know a true believer by the "fruit" produced in their life. Bad fruit (or lack of works) seems to indicate that saving faith is not there and the person has not truly been regenerated by God. The above describes our belief. It is where the belief of works being necessary come into play. If we had no faith in God would be have reason to do works - other than for our own gain? No. If we say we have faith, but then do no works - do we truly have faith? No. Hence the statement: Faith without works is dead. (OR on the flip - works w/o faith is dead) Saying you have faith and are a follower of Christ means nothing if you do not show Him your love. We are actually taught Faith is an ACTION word. Meaning you are always moving in one direction or another - to or away from God. Our works cannot save us. We gain our salvation and eternal life (not necessarily the same) through the atonement of Christ. We are not, nor will be become perfect in this life. W/O Christ, it is impossible to become perfected. However, it is important that we gain and have faith in Christ in order to gain eternal life. Because we do not truly have faith if we do no works - works become essential. It is important to note: God DOES know our hearts, and if we do works for our own gain - it gains us nothing! It is only a broken heart and a contrite spirit - a meek and humble person, who believes and understands the depths of the atonement who can gain eternal life. But, because these people love God - they will do works. We believe we do works to show GOD our love - not to show our ourselves, our neighbors, or the world how great we are. It is a fine line to walk. Because as stated, works CAN bring a person to be prideful. However, if a person is humble - a person can serve God and not be prideful. It truly appears to be more symantics (at least in this discussion). And admittedly, with those people who truly appear to have a desire to be close to God, I have found no different. Perhaps, it is those people who claim to be spiritual but then never enter a church who believe simple words can pave their way to eternal life. . . 3. But does God want to rule with fear or with love? Relationship and grace or wrath and terror? This is an interesting question. The LDS faith teaches very much of a loving God. We believe all who have ever lived on Earth will have the opportunity to know Him and to choose for themselves to believe or not believe. We believe He is forgiving and understanding. We believe He blesses and loves all of His children and not just those who have love for Him. I find that to be very comforting. Especially knowing my own sins. The thought that works matter only to the world is also an interesting one. You see, God often times blesses His children through those around them. We are blessed and become closer to Him when we read our scriptures, attend church and follow the commandments we can work and SEE miracles happen when we serve each other. The works don't affect GOD - they bless us. So to say they are unimportant to God, or don't matter is very, very double-sided. They are unimportant considering the fact that His love for us is not affected. However, they are very important when you consider how our love (and faith) for Him grows. 4. Here's the catch, but it does NOT change anything I said above, but I feel it is worth mentioning. If we find our faith is wavering, we are counseled to study scripture, attend church, pray, serve those around us. These things are 'works'. We are counseled to do these things in order to promote a growth in faith - to help build a testimony. One of my favorite LDS scriptures: Alma 32: 27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than adesire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words. DESIRE is a verb- an action, a work. Works can be faith promoting. If you continue: 28 Now, we will compare the word unto a aseed. Now, if ye give place, that a bseed may be planted in your cheart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your dunbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to eenlighten my funderstanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me. 29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge. 30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow. By doing, we can gain a testimony and have faith. Remember, faith is an action word. Also keep in mind - how many people do you know that will read the scriptures, attend church, etc, that do not have even the smallest amount of faith. I know of no one willing to do these things w/o at least a tiny bit of faith. It isn't that we do works for salvation, we do works for 2 reasons. The 1st I've explained - it is to show love. The second is to strengthen our faith, to gain a testimony and to LEARN TO LOVE GOD MORE! Because our faith is weak if we do not do the things which will help us to keep it strong. If you never read the bible, never attend church and never cultivate the faith you have in God - do you really have it? Remember, works are not for God, but for us - to help us love Him more. | | | |
|
| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 05/24/2008 9:01 PM |
Alert | I assure you, the missionaries would be more than willing to visit you in your home, on the sidewalk, at a park, in a store, etc. Their purpose is to share Christ's Gospel. They love to speak with Christians, and love to answer questions. They aren't so likely to stick around for heated arguments.
"I think LDS have a problem talking to Christians because of some of the issues brought up in this forum."
It's all depends on the spirit of the discussion. Sometimes LDS members feel a little attacked. It can feel like the purpose of the discussion is only to tells us we are wrong. However, when done in the right spirit, I LOVE to talk with Christians (about church stuff) I'm not always so great at pulling scriptures out (never was good at scripture mastery), but I like to learn about other's beliefs, and I like to share mine.
| | | |
|
| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 05/24/2008 9:07 PM |
Alert | Posted By love@hm on 05/24/2008 8:53 PM The whole works vs grace thing is so symantical to me. I have yet to really see a difference - that is, unless MS Christians believe a person can say, "I believe Jesus Christ is my Savior", do nothing else and BE saved. Below is are some posts from another board I frequent. In this particular discussions - the MS Christians I was discussing with ALL agreed, just saying the words were not enough - their reason: If a person just says words, and never does works, then they likely do not truly have faith in Christ. I agree with them. Here is the discription I used there to explain our belief. I've noticed, much of what people will argue with are the symantical words. Here are the entries: 1. The LDS belief on grace is vastly misunderstood. The belief is that works ARE a commandment. We follow the commandments because we love God and we want to show our love to Him. If we were to only follow a commandment because we think that will get us where we want to be, then we aren't really following the commandment. I don't find that to be different than what MS Christianity teaches. In fact, the difference I see is that the LDS church does not teach the idea of being saved at baptism. We believe we are saved through the atonement AFTER death and are judged on our love of Christ - which is eminated through our works. Does that make sense? IOW, we are commanded to do works - because we love God, we follow His commandments. . . Ack - I need to stop my thought process. . . It is refreshing to hear people say, "saying it isn't enough" What I generally hear is: "It all depends on what is in your heart. But you can love Christ and still not do works." THIS to me, leaves no reason to strive to be good, and seems so empty. I believe I hear it enough that I have wondered about the origins of the belief of saved at baptism - no need for works, and the the effects of that belief on society. As a side note - and I have NOT felt this way in any of the above comments - I don't like it that people seem to think I only want to be a good person because I am trying to get my place in 'the kingdom' - in reality, I try to be a good person because I love God and He has asked me to be a good person - I want to please Him, and show love to Him, so I do the best I can. It isn't in order to 'gain' anything - it is simply for the same reasons as what appears to be any other Christians. . . 2. The basic LDS belief is: Faith without works is dead. I think a lot of times this is taken to mean we believe we can save ourselves. However, if what everyone here is describing is what is truly believed by other churches (which I'm certain it is) then the LDS belief is truly no different. Here's the thing though: true, saving faith *will* result in a person's "works" changing and becoming more inline with God's character. The Bible says that we will know a true believer by the "fruit" produced in their life. Bad fruit (or lack of works) seems to indicate that saving faith is not there and the person has not truly been regenerated by God. The above describes our belief. It is where the belief of works being necessary come into play. If we had no faith in God would be have reason to do works - other than for our own gain? No. If we say we have faith, but then do no works - do we truly have faith? No. Hence the statement: Faith without works is dead. (OR on the flip - works w/o faith is dead) Saying you have faith and are a follower of Christ means nothing if you do not show Him your love. We are actually taught Faith is an ACTION word. Meaning you are always moving in one direction or another - to or away from God. Our works cannot save us. We gain our salvation and eternal life (not necessarily the same) through the atonement of Christ. We are not, nor will be become perfect in this life. W/O Christ, it is impossible to become perfected. However, it is important that we gain and have faith in Christ in order to gain eternal life. Because we do not truly have faith if we do no works - works become essential. It is important to note: God DOES know our hearts, and if we do works for our own gain - it gains us nothing! It is only a broken heart and a contrite spirit - a meek and humble person, who believes and understands the depths of the atonement who can gain eternal life. But, because these people love God - they will do works. We believe we do works to show GOD our love - not to show our ourselves, our neighbors, or the world how great we are. It is a fine line to walk. Because as stated, works CAN bring a person to be prideful. However, if a person is humble - a person can serve God and not be prideful. It truly appears to be more symantics (at least in this discussion). And admittedly, with those people who truly appear to have a desire to be close to God, I have found no different. Perhaps, it is those people who claim to be spiritual but then never enter a church who believe simple words can pave their way to eternal life. . . 3. But does God want to rule with fear or with love? Relationship and grace or wrath and terror? This is an interesting question. The LDS faith teaches very much of a loving God. We believe all who have ever lived on Earth will have the opportunity to know Him and to choose for themselves to believe or not believe. We believe He is forgiving and understanding. We believe He blesses and loves all of His children and not just those who have love for Him. I find that to be very comforting. Especially knowing my own sins. The thought that works matter only to the world is also an interesting one. You see, God often times blesses His children through those around them. We are blessed and become closer to Him when we read our scriptures, attend church and follow the commandments we can work and SEE miracles happen when we serve each other. The works don't affect GOD - they bless us. So to say they are unimportant to God, or don't matter is very, very double-sided. They are unimportant considering the fact that His love for us is not affected. However, they are very important when you consider how our love (and faith) for Him grows. 4. Here's the catch, but it does NOT change anything I said above, but I feel it is worth mentioning. If we find our faith is wavering, we are counseled to study scripture, attend church, pray, serve those around us. These things are 'works'. We are counseled to do these things in order to promote a growth in faith - to help build a testimony. One of my favorite LDS scriptures: Alma 32: 27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than adesire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words. DESIRE is a verb- an action, a work. Works can be faith promoting. If you continue: 28 Now, we will compare the word unto a aseed. Now, if ye give place, that a bseed may be planted in your cheart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your dunbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to eenlighten my funderstanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me. 29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge. 30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow. By doing, we can gain a testimony and have faith. Remember, faith is an action word. Also keep in mind - how many people do you know that will read the scriptures, attend church, etc, that do not have even the smallest amount of faith. I know of no one willing to do these things w/o at least a tiny bit of faith. It isn't that we do works for salvation, we do works for 2 reasons. The 1st I've explained - it is to show love. The second is to strengthen our faith, to gain a testimony and to LEARN TO LOVE GOD MORE! Because our faith is weak if we do not do the things which will help us to keep it strong. If you never read the bible, never attend church and never cultivate the faith you have in God - do you really have it? Remember, works are not for God, but for us - to help us love Him more. Notice again in another LDS post. A lot of words, no Bible verses. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
|
| | hastings1066
Posts:883
| | 05/24/2008 9:07 PM |
Alert | < However, it is important that we gain and have faith in Christ in order to gain eternal life. Because we do not truly have faith if we do no works - works become essential. It is important to note: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If works are essential, what happens to a child who declares his new found faith in Christ and 10 seconds later is killed, having done no "works'? Is he saved by faith alone? | | | |
|
| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 05/24/2008 9:34 PM |
Alert | Posted By hastings1066 on 05/24/2008 9:07 PM < However, it is important that we gain and have faith in Christ in order to gain eternal life. Because we do not truly have faith if we do no works - works become essential. It is important to note: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If works are essential, what happens to a child who declares his new found faith in Christ and 10 seconds later is killed, having done no "works'? Is he saved by faith alone? excellent question. And the thief on the cross, Christ said he is in heaven, and he didn't do any good works(ie. He never got baptized). | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
|
| | qwerty
Posts:139
| | 05/25/2008 9:30 AM |
Alert | Posted By hastings1066 on 05/24/2008 9:07 PM
<
However, it is important that we gain and have faith in Christ in order to gain eternal life. Because we do not truly have faith if we do no works - works become essential. It is important to note:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If works are essential, what happens to a child who declares his new found faith in Christ and 10 seconds later is killed, having done no "works'? Is he saved by faith alone?
excellent question. And the thief on the cross, Christ said he is in heaven, and he didn't do any good works(ie. He never got baptized).
This ties in well with the discussion about temples. Before that, however, I did want to point out that we do not believe that children are held accountable for anything prior to the age of accountability, which is 8. Children who die prior to this age are not bound by the "curse of Adam". This is found in the Book of Mormon - Moroni 8:8 - "Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me."
This Bible reference also points to the 8 years of age as the age to baptize:
1st Peter 3:20-21
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
One of the main reasons we have temples is to do proxy work (e.g., baptism, temple sealing, etc.) for those who have passed on. They, of course, have the opportunity to accept or reject that ordinance. God is 100% "fair" in this regard. If someone accepts Christ and then quickly passes soon after, God will judge them based on the intents of their heart and they will have the opportunity to accept ordinances performed in their behalf. If someone dies without ever hearing of Christ, they will be taught and have the opportunity to accept or reject it after this life. | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 05/25/2008 2:07 PM |
Alert | Sorry, I do have Bible references. I had not thought to go and re-find the post I had with those. It happens to have been in a different thread on that board. Please forgive the mention of names, and of prior discussions. A little more concerning faith and works: Here are some Bible references - This one is self-explanatory Col. 1: 10 10 That ye might awalk bworthy of the Lord unto all cpleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the dknowledge of God Paul tells Timothy to preach to the rich to not be highminded, but to be 'rich in good works'. 1 Tim. 6: 17-18 17 Charge them that are arich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain briches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; Self explanatory: 12 Having your conversation ahonest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good bworks, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. But Titus chapter 3 is perhaps the best example possible. Paul doesn't talk of only works or grace, he talks about the necessity of both. In vs 1-2 He talks about works: 1 Put them in mind to be asubject to bprincipalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, 2 To aspeak evil of no man, to be bno brawlers, but gentle, shewing all cmeekness unto all men. Then vs 3-7 talk about how they were imperfect, and that their works did not save them w/o Christ mercy, but it was the mercy and grace of the Lord which did. 3 For we ourselves also were asometimes foolish, bdisobedient, deceived, serving divers clusts and pleasures, living in dmalice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being ajustified by his grace, we should be made bheirs according to the hope of eternal life. Then in vs 8 he says to be careful to MAINTAIN good works; these things are good and profitable unto men: 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good aworks. These things are good and profitable unto men. 9-13 words of wisdom - or to live by: 9 But avoid afoolish questions, and genealogies, and bcontentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
11 Knowing that he that is such is asubverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. 12 When I shall send Artemas unto thee, or Tychicus, be diligent to come unto me to Nicopolis: for I have determined there to winter. 13 Bring Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them. And back to works in 14: 14 And let aours also learn to maintain bgood works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful. 15 closes the chapter with a salutation. What I love about this chapter is is spells it out for us: Works are good, should be done, are necessary (he listed many) YET when we mess up and aren't perfect, the mercy and the grace of God follow through, and we aren't left in our sins, but saved through Christ. It DOES talk about being saved through Grace, but it does not say works are not necessary - in fact, it says just the opposite: "Be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." I mentioned in the Grace thread that works don't profit God - He has no need of them. They are given to us to strengthen us help us and those around us. Robert brought up a good point, and I want to talk about it a bit. . . God gave us commandments. Why did He give us commandments (which in order to follow require works) if He did not intend us to follow them? I cannot believe they are their simply because He wanted us to be able to show Him love - but we get to choose how much or how little we show Him that love. I think they are there for the betterment of mankind. He blesses us when we follow His commandments. Do you agree? How does he bless us for following His commandments. Does He perform daily miracles on our behalf? Yes. Does He bless us with His love. Yes (but that comes w/o following commandments too.) Does He bless us with increased FAITH? YES! When you do something that is right, (you read your scriptures, you pray, you go to church) do you feel closer to God? Do you feel as if you want to serve Him more? Do works flow from you? Yes. Why? Is it because you did nothing, or is it because you had the desire to learn of God, to follow His commandments. Is it because you DID works? (rhetorical) It is through our desire to believe, through our faith that we 1st do works. I agree completely. However, we are blessed with MORE FAITH when we do works. Because Faith is ACTION; it is much more than just saying, "I believe". We do works because we love God. When done in righteousness, they are proof of our faith. When done in unrighteousness - they are failings. Talk about a double-edged sword. Only God knows our hearts - which is what will determine if our faith is true or if we are selfishly performing works. It is the amount of faith we have that grants our placement in the kingdoms. (symantics) And as I pointed out, salvation is granted to all who believe, and most who do not. Eternal Life is not the same. Eternal Life is granted to those who fully accept and have full faith in Christ as the Savior. End of quoted thread. I want to point out, because it is not obvious, for this particular conversation - we had separated 'works' (church attendance, scripture reading, obeying commandments, pride, charity, etc) from 'ordinances' (baptism, confirmation, endowments, sealings, etc.) While oridances are not necessary for salvation alone (neither are works), they are necessary for eternal life - IOW to reach the Celestial Kingdom. My point with the Titus chapter is GRACE and WORKS go hand in hand. Works are important - it is mentioned in vs 1,8 and 14. However, it is also pointed out no matter how many works we do - even in righteousness we canNOT be saved w/o grace. What I think happens here, is MS Christianity leaves out the parts we are told to 'maintain' good works - and focuses on the part where we are saved by grace. I think it is important to note they work hand-in-hand. | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 05/25/2008 3:16 PM |
Alert | Posted By qwerty on 05/25/2008 9:30 AM Posted By hastings1066 on 05/24/2008 9:07 PM
<
However, it is important that we gain and have faith in Christ in order to gain eternal life. Because we do not truly have faith if we do no works - works become essential. It is important to note:
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If works are essential, what happens to a child who declares his new found faith in Christ and 10 seconds later is killed, having done no "works'? Is he saved by faith alone?
excellent question. And the thief on the cross, Christ said he is in heaven, and he didn't do any good works(ie. He never got baptized).
This ties in well with the discussion about temples. Before that, however, I did want to point out that we do not believe that children are held accountable for anything prior to the age of accountability, which is 8. Children who die prior to this age are not bound by the "curse of Adam". This is found in the Book of Mormon - Moroni 8:8 - "Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me."
This Bible reference also points to the 8 years of age as the age to baptize:
1st Peter 3:20-21
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
One of the main reasons we have temples is to do proxy work (e.g., baptism, temple sealing, etc.) for those who have passed on. They, of course, have the opportunity to accept or reject that ordinance. God is 100% "fair" in this regard. If someone accepts Christ and then quickly passes soon after, God will judge them based on the intents of their heart and they will have the opportunity to accept ordinances performed in their behalf. If someone dies without ever hearing of Christ, they will be taught and have the opportunity to accept or reject it after this life. Qwerty, "the like figure" or "like example", is not talking about the number 8, but rather giving the example of how God saved people during the flood. That is a far reach to say 8 years old is the year for baptism from those verses. It's pointless to baptize the dead, Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: You are judge for the ONE life you live and then the judgement. It doesn't say, after death, wait a while for another chance for repentence, then the judgement. I know Mormons keep track of who they baptize for, who got baptized for the thief on the cross? | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:233
| | 05/25/2008 3:27 PM |
Alert | curse of Adam".
What is this?
I read the verses in 1 peter 3, I wonder if the "eight" are talking about the persons that God saved (i.e. Noah and his family) from the flood. The verse says that (v.20) who were once disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah..." so in this part I think of how God wanted to destroy the whole earth and Noah asked God if instead of the whole earth, if so many people could be found righteous, would he then not flood the earth (Genesis 6-7). I am not really reading into were you get eight from "eight persons" which is clearly says.Back to the discussion about plagarism... How do you reconcile the fact that whole sections of the Book of Mormon were compied verbatim from the King James Version of the Bible; this despite the fact that the writing of Moroni and his father, Mormon, are said to redate the King James Version by more than a thousand years? If I were to point out to you some historical innaccuracies of the bible, I'm confident that you would either pick one of the below:
1) Say the history is wrong.
2) Evidence saying the bible story is false is scientifically invalid.
3) The story was meant to be taken as a moral story, not historical fact.
4) You don't understand the bible story. Wasn't someone going to point these out? | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 05/25/2008 3:37 PM |
Alert | Posted By love@hm on 05/25/2008 2:07 PM Sorry, I do have Bible references. I had not thought to go and re-find the post I had with those. It happens to have been in a different thread on that board. Please forgive the mention of names, and of prior discussions. A little more concerning faith and works: Here are some Bible references - This one is self-explanatory Col. 1: 10 10 That ye might awalk bworthy of the Lord unto all cpleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the dknowledge of God Paul tells Timothy to preach to the rich to not be highminded, but to be 'rich in good works'. 1 Tim. 6: 17-18 17 Charge them that are arich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain briches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; Self explanatory: 12 Having your conversation ahonest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good bworks, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. But Titus chapter 3 is perhaps the best example possible. Paul doesn't talk of only works or grace, he talks about the necessity of both. In vs 1-2 He talks about works: 1 Put them in mind to be asubject to bprincipalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, 2 To aspeak evil of no man, to be bno brawlers, but gentle, shewing all cmeekness unto all men. Then vs 3-7 talk about how they were imperfect, and that their works did not save them w/o Christ mercy, but it was the mercy and grace of the Lord which did. |
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