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| | Author | Messages | |
moinmoin
Posts:413
 | | 04/14/2008 11:21 AM |
 Alert | On another thread, DaybyDay asked: What prophecies did Joseph Smith or any other of the LDS prophets make that came true? One remarkable example, not only because of its details, but also because it indisputably preceded the events by decades, is the Civil War/World War I prophecy. (December 25, 1832) Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations. (Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3) This revelation was used by Mormon missionaries, often causing great scorn and mockery, up until 1851, when it was published in the Pearl of Great Price. While critics may try to deny that it was given in 1832, it unquestionably preceded South Carolina’s secession and the Civil War by at least ten years. Critics have mocked what they see as a gaffe in the above; they insist that war was not poured out upon the earth starting with the Civil War, and that the Confederacy did not call upon other nations besides Great Britain. Notice, though, that the prophecy states that the Southern States will "call on . . . Great Britain . . . and they [Great Britain] shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then [when Great Britain shall call upon other nations for help] war shall be poured out upon all nations." This is striking in foreseeing a conflict on the scale of the world wars, something that had never happened until 1914. To give you a feel for how this revelation factored into Mormon discourse both before and after the Civil War, here are some statements by Mormon leaders: Let me tell you that ten years will not pass away before God will play with this nation as he did with Pharaoh, only worse. (Heber C. Kimball, September 20, 1857. Journal of Discourses 5:254) The day is not far distant when nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and State against State, and there will be sorrow such as never was among men. Watch the signs of the times, for we are living in an important age. The prophecies relating to our time are rolling in upon us. Are we prepared to meet them? It is important for men and angels to note the events of this age . . . The nation does not know what they are doing, not comprehend the fearful results of the course they are pursuing. They are turning the last key to rend the nation asunder . . . (Wilford Woodruff, December 6, 1857. Journal of Discourses 6:120) Brother Hyde spoke of a revelation . . . in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. That revelation was reserved at that time; the compilation for that book was made by Oliver Cowdery and others, in Kirtland. It was not wisdom to publish it to the world, and it remained in the private escritoire. Brother Joseph had that revelation concerning this nation at a time when the brethren were reflecting and reasoning with regard to African slavery on this continent, and the slavery of the children of men throughout the world. (Brigham Young, May 20, 1860. Journal of Discourses 8:58) What will be their condition when the Spirit of the Lord is withdrawn? They will whet the knife to cut each other's throats, and . . . try to make Mason and Dickson's [sic] the dividing line; but that will not remain, for they will cross it to destroy each other, and the sword and fire will be prevalent in the land . . . The world, and particularly the United States, have been told these things during thirty years past. (Brigham Young, August 19, 1860. Journal of Discourses 8:147-148) When a few more Conferences shall have been held by this people, compare the coming history of nations with this my testimony, and you will be satisfied that I now tell you the truth. The liberty of the Gospel, with your indulgence, will allow me to give some political matters a passing and respectful notice . . . On the 25th day of December, 1832, the Lord spoke to Joseph Smith . . . The Democratic party found it necessary to call a convention of delegates to nominate a successor to President Buchanan. No place but Charleston, South Carolina, could be agreed upon as the place for that body to assemble in. A most unlikely place, indeed!—entirely out of the political centre—a small town of about twenty or twenty-five thousand white inhabitants, accommodations very limited for such a body of men, and at a half-dozen prices. But to South Carolina they must go; for the prophecy, twenty-seven years before, said that the serious troubles of the land should begin at that place. The Democratic party of administration fell upon that stone of present revelation, and, according to our Saviour's words, they must be broken. They had to go to Charleston to break. They did go there, and there they did break into several pieces—split asunder. It was said by the ancient Prophet—"Out of Egypt have I called my son." Joseph and Mary took the young child by night and fled into Egypt to elude the cruelty of Herod, and God called his son out of Egypt. It was necessary, equally, that the Democratic party go to South Carolina, being urged there by a silent prophetic influence; and though they had hearts to understand, they understood it not. They had eyes to see, but they saw it not. There they broke—there the trouble began, "which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls." (Orson Hyde, October 7, 1860. Journal of Discourses 8:233) The wedge to divide the Union was entered in South Carolina, and all the power of the Government could not prevent it. The Lord spoke to Joseph Smith, on the 25th day of December, 1832, as follows:—"Verily thus saith the Lord, concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls. The days will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at that place; for, behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations" (Brigham Young, August 31, 1862. Journal of Discourses 9:367) ["King James" and "King Abraham" refer to James Buchanan and Abraham LincolnKing James is not so prompt now as he was three years ago, when he sent troops to Utah. South Carolina comes out and boldly declares her secession from the compact of States, and takes possession of all the public property within her borders, except Fort Sumter. There is no Latter-day Saint engaged in this act. One of the most contemptible of characters we ever had here could swear falsely in Washington, and the Government could receive his oath, and make it a basis, with other lies, of sending an army here. William Drummond went to Washington and swore that we were treasoners, and to many palpable falsehoods; and King James could act upon that and send an army here at an expense of, probably, fifty million dollars. Says King James—"Those lies are true." "What! receive a lie?" Yes, go and swear to a lie, and the Government can hear that and act upon it. But when South Carolina takes possession of the public funds, of the custom-house, of the arms, arsenal, dock-yards, forts, cannon, &c.,—"You must not coerce. Do not infringe upon them: they have the right to do this." What a reign is the reign of King James! It is enough to astound and throw into the shade the wisdom of all nations upon the earth! What will King Abraham do? I do not know, neither do I care. It is no difference what he does or what any of them do. Why? God will accomplish his own purposes, and they may do or not do; they may take the road that leads to the right, or they may take the road that leads to the left; and whichever road they do take, they will wish they had taken the other. King James pledged himself, at Cincinnati, that on his election to the presidential chair he would take the Island of Cuba, annex a portion of Mexico, and so obliterate the "Mormons," that "Mormonism" should not be known at the end of his reign. These three things he pledged himself to his party to do.(Brigham Young, February 10, 1861. Journal of Discourses 8:323) I like this next one: Mormon appeals for federal intervention in the Missouri persecutions were answered in terms of the inability to interfere with "states’ rights." Mormons couldn’t help noting that the nation now had all the "states’ rights" issues it could ever want! When our people applied to the Government to compel the State of Missouri to restore us to our lands, they pretended they could not interfere with a sovereign State; and, as a reward for their conduct, they have now got State's sovereignty to their heart's content; and this will continue to be poured back upon them: they will have to walk in the road which they laid out for us, and that which they would have put upon us is now fast coming upon their own heads. (Daniel H. Wells, April 6, 1861. Journal of Discourses 8:374) Mormon leaders noted the reaction of people when they had shared the Civil War prophecy in the decades preceding the Civil War. The Lord has led this people out of bondage with a high hand and an outstretched arm. No man acquainted with the history of this people is ignorant of the almighty power of God that has been manifested in the organization, growth and present condition of the Church, though they may be unable naturally to account for it. And the more we grow and prosper, the more our enemies are angry with us. They are angry with us because we told them, thirty years ago, that calamity would come upon this nation. Their anger still increases, while they are drinking of the bitter cup; and at the same time the Saints are increasing in numbers, in faith, in hope, in wealth and in power. I have talked with men who professed to be gentlemen and dispensers of life and salvation to the people, who, Pharaoh-like, declared that they would rather be damned than believe that Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God. I promised them they should have their choice. (Brigham Young, September 28, 1862. Journal of Discourses 10:4) I copied a revelation more than twenty-five years ago, in which it is stated that war should be in the south and in the north, and that nation after nation would become embroiled in the tumult and excitement, until war should be poured out upon the whole earth, and that this war would commence at the rebellion of South Carolina, and that times should be such that every man who did not flee to Zion would have to take up the sword against his neighbor or against his brother. These things are beginning to be made manifest, but the end is not yet; but it will come, and that too much sooner than the world of mankind anticipate, and all those things spoken by the mouths of his Prophets will be fulfilled. (Wilford Woodruff, July 27, 1862. Journal of Discourses 10:13) We are under no necessity of sending forth the Elders of Israel in the condition that we have hitherto had to do; in fact, it would not be safe for a man to shoulder his valise and tramp through the States as the Elders used to do. Bloodshed, robbery, murder, jay-hawking (a polite name for robbery,) stalks abroad throughout the land, and the only chance for safety is for every man to pass along about his business and be silent; this is the case in many parts of the country. The fact that Joseph Smith predicted the present trouble and state of affairs—prophesied the result of mobbing the Saints in Missouri and elsewhere, enrages them; instead of the fulfillment of that prophecy making the people of the country friendly to us, it makes them bloodthirsty, more filled with hell, more eager to waste and destroy and crush out the last remaining particle of truth that may exist on the face of the land. (George A. Smith, April 6, 1863. Journal of Discourses 10:144) These things ought to be a warning to us. We comfort our souls sometimes on the fulfillment of the prophecies of God. We say "Mormonism" must be true because Joseph Smith prophesied thus and so concerning a division of this nation, and that the calamities which are now causing it to mourn should commence in South Carolina. That is true, he did prophecy that, and did foretell the events that have since transpired, and did tell where the commencement of those difficulties should originate. Well, if this is true, are not other things true? If it is true that the Lord has revealed a certain amount of truth in relation to these matters, is it not as true that He has revealed other truths in which we are as individuals interested; and if it is true that God has commenced to deal with other nations as He is doing with this until war and desolation shall spread through the earth, it is just as true that we ought to be very careful what we are doing to secure the favor of God and to fulfill our destiny upon the earth in a manner which will meet his designs. (John Taylor, October 25, 1863. Journal of Discourses 10:278) This next one refers to sermons Joseph Smith gave to packed churches in Washington D.C. and Philadelphia where he foretold pending states’ rights issues for America. He died in 1844. The war now raging in our nation is in the providence of God, and was told us years and years ago by the Prophet Joseph; and what we are now coming to was foreseen by him, and no power can hinder . . . It is distressing to see the condition our nation is in, but I cannot help it. Who can? The people en masse, by turning to God, and ceasing to do wickedly, ceasing to persecute the honest and the truth-lover. If they had done that thirty years ago, it would have been better for them to-day. When we appealed to the government of our nation for justice, the answer was:—"Your cause is just, but we have no power." Did not Joseph Smith tell them in Washington and Philadelphia, that the time would come when their State rights would be trampled upon? (Brigham Young, May 15, 1864. Journal of Discourses 10:294, 295) Now I am aware that it is almost impossible for even some of the Latter-day Saints to get that confidence and that strong faith in the events which God intends to accomplish on this land in the future to believe in such a thing, to say nothing about outsiders, that do not believe a word of it. Outsiders do not believe it any more than they believed me when I was a boy and took that revelation which was given in 1832, and carried it forth among many towns and cities and told them there was to be a great and terrible war between the North and the South, and read to them the revelation. Did they believe it? Would they consider that there was any truth in it? Not in the least, "that is a Mormon humbug" they would say. "What! this great and powerful nation of ours to be divided one part against the other and many hundreds of thousands of souls to be destroyed by civil wars!" Not a word of it would they believe. They do not believe what is still in the future. (Orson Pratt, December 27, 1868. Journal of Discourses 12:344) Well, it seems as if the Lord our God is giving the nation a pretty thorough warning. He told this nation by revelation, twenty-eight years before it commenced, of the great American war. He told all about how the Southern States should be divided against the Northern States, and that in the course of the war many souls should be cut off. This has been fulfilled. I went forth before my beard was gray, before my hair began to turn white, when I was a youth of nineteen, now I am fifty-eight, and from that time on I published these tidings among the inhabitants of the earth. I carried forth the written revelation, foretelling this great contest, some twenty-eight years before the war commenced. This prophecy has been printed and circulated extensively in this and other nations and languages. It pointed out the place where it should commence in South Carolina. That which I declared over the New England States, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and many other parts in the East, when but a boy, came to pass twenty-eight years after the revelation was given. When they were talking about a war commencing down here in Kansas, I told them that was not the place; I also told them that the revelation had designated South Carolina, "and," said I, "you have no need to think that the Kansas war is going to be the war that is to be so terribly destructive in its character and nature. No, it must commence at the place the Lord has designated by revelation." What did they have to say to me? They thought it was a Mormon humbug, and laughed me to scorn, and they looked upon that revelation as they do upon all others that God has given in these latter days—as without divine authority. But behold and lo! in the process of time it came to pass, again establishing the divinity of this work, and giving another proof that God is in this work, and is performing that which He spoke by the mouths of the ancient prophets, as recorded in the Book of Mormon before any Church of Latter-day Saints was in existence.(Orson Pratt, April 10, 1870. Journal of Discourses 13:135) After we had again established ourselves in a new country, and built up a beautiful city, and when all was peaceful and prosperity attending us, this same Prophet, on assembling the Elders of the Church on a certain occasion at Nauvoo, told us that we would have to flee to the Rocky Mountains for safety. The fulfillment of this prediction is apparent to all. I might mention scores of others, and in no instance has that man uttered a single prophecy that either has not already been fulfilled to the very letter, or will not have its fulfillment in the due time of the Lord. I will mention another prophecy, which was printed in several languages, and published among the various nations in whose languages it was printed, which was twenty-eight years reaching its fulfillment. The Lord revealed to the Prophet, Joseph Smith, that there would be a great rebellion between the Northern and Southern States, commencing in the State of South Carolina, and that it should terminate in the death and misery of many souls. This, as you all know, has been literally fulfilled. When I was a boy, I traveled extensively in the United States and the Canadas, preaching this restored Gospel. I had a manuscript copy of this revelation, which I carried in my pocked, and I was in the habit of reading it to the people among whom I traveled and preached. As a general thing the people regarded it as the height of nonsense, saying the Union was too strong to be broken; and I, they said, was led away, the victim of an impostor. I knew the prophecy was true, for the Lord had spoken to me and had given me revelation. I knew also concerning the divinity of this worlk. Year after year passed away, while every little while some of the acquaintances I had formerly made would say, "Well what is going to become of that prediction? It's never going to be fulfilled." Said I, "Wait, the Lord has his set time." By and by it came along, and the first battle was fought at Charleston, South Carolina. This is another testimony that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of the Most High God; he not only foretold the coming of a great civil war at a time when statesman even never dreamed of such a thing, but he named the very place where it should commence. (Orson Pratt, August 26, 1876. Journal of Discourses 18:224) In 1832 the Lord foretold to the Prophet Joseph Smith that there should be a great war between the Northern and Southern States. This revelation is published in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, a standard work of the Church, and also in many languages, many years before the war commenced. At that early period we were told that the Southern States would rise against the Northern States, and the Northern against the Southern States in war, terminating in the deaths and misery of many souls. We were told also that this war would begin with the rebellion of South Carolina. When I was a boy, a little over 20 years of age, I had the privilege of taking a copy of that revelation, and I carried it around with me, oftentimes reading it to the congregations that I preached to. Its subject matter formed a text from which I many times preached, as well as a topic of conversation with strangers, whose acquaintance I would happen to make in traveling from place to place. How do you think such information was received by the people to whom it was imparted? They would not believe it; they had no idea of its being a revelation from God to them; they considered it one of the impositions that the "Mormons" had gotten up to delude the people. To tell them that this great government would be divided and go to war with each other, was something entirely foreign to their minds; it was something to which they paid heedless regard, ofttimes treating it with ridicule and laughter. I preached in the New England States, and in various portions of the Union, and such was the way these things were received. The shedding of blood was then one of the remotest feelings of the American people; yet it came to pass precisely as predicted, and we all know the results of that dreadful war. (Orson Pratt, February 25, 1877. Journal of Discourses 18:340) Many of you may have read, years before it was fulfilled, the revelation and prophecy of the Prophet Joseph in regard to the trouble, anarchy, and war that should befall this nation. Wise men said its fulfillment was a matter of impossibility—that the government was too sound and too well established for such a calamity to occur, but the fulfillment came. When the Lord undertakes to perform a work, he is certain to carry it out. It would not take the Lord twenty-four hours to cause war, anarchy, confusion, and judgments to come upon the nation. He is withholding these calamities until his purposes are accomplished. (Wilford Woodruff, October 13, 1877. Journal of Discourses 19:135) There was a revelation given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, in December, 1832, concerning the war that should take place between the Southern States and the Northern States. This was a definite prediction, stating the exact point where a certain trouble or rebellion or division in the nation should take place. Most of us who have been brought up in the Church knew about this revelation from early days. It has been published so that all the members of the Church, and the world also, could have it, and it was but reasonable to expect that so definite a prophecy as this, which stated the exact character of the difficulty that should take place between the south and the north, and that also stated with such definiteness the exact point where the division should occur—I say it was but reasonable to expect that when it should be fulfilled, it would have the effect of convincing unbelievers of the truth of the mission of Joseph Smith, and that he really was a man inspired of the Lord to speak the word of God to the people. In 1860, Brothers Orson Pratt, Erastus Snow, myself, and others, were going on missions, and we arrived at Omaha in the month of November of that year. A deputation of the leading citizens of that city came to our camp and tendered to us the use of the Court House, as they wished to hear our principles. The invitation was accepted, and Elder Pratt preached to them. During the service, there was read the revelation to which I have referred—the revelation concerning the division between the South and the North. The reason probably, for reading it was that when we reached Omaha, the news came that trouble was already brewing, and several States were threatening to secede from the Union. Its reading made considerable impression upon the people. A good many had never heard of it before, and quite a number were struck with the remarkable character of the prophecy. It might have been expected, naturally speaking and looking at it as men naturally do, that the reading, of such a revelation, at such a time, when the crisis was approaching, would have had the effect to direct men's attention to it, and they would be led to investigate its truth and the doctrines of the Church and the foundation we had for our belief. But if there were any converted in that audience I am not aware of it. Good seed was sown, but we did not remain to see what effect it produced. The revelation being so remarkable, and the events then transpiring being so corroborative of its truth, one might naturally think, as there were present on that occasion the leading and thinking portion of that community, that a great number would have been impressed with the probability of its truth, and would have investigated and joined the Church. You doubtless remember it was for a good while doubtful whether the rebellion should commence at South Carolina or not. I was in England at the time, and was engaged in publishing the Millennial Star, and took a great deal of notice of the American papers, and I well remember that to all human appearances it seemed for a while as though the trouble would break out at Fort Pickens, Florida. But the word of God had been spoken concerning that event, and consequently it had to be fulfilled as predicted, and the war did commence at South Carolina. It was fulfilled, as you know, to the very letter, Fort Sumter being the place where the rebellion broke out.(George Q. Cannon, November 2, 1879. Journal of Discourses 21:265-266) We trust in God. We cannot afford to deny the Lord, we cannot deny his revelations. We have a code of revelations called the Doctrine and Covenants. That code given through the mouth of Joseph Smith, contains the most sublime revelations concerning this generation that were ever given to the world. Many of these revelations have had their fulfilment so far as time has permitted. Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God. I travelled thousands of miles with him, in fact the revelation he gave concerning the war which would break out between the North and South, I wrote that revelation myself as it was given by the Prophet twenty years before it was fulfilled. That revelation was published to the world broadcast, and I merely refer to it because it is a thing that is clear to the minds of all men. All the revelations in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, the Bible, and the Book of Mormon, will have their fulfilment in the earth. (Wilford Woodruff, June 12, 1881. Journal of Discourses 22:175) In the same way it will take time to make the merits of the predictions of Joseph Smith recognized. Will they be recognized? Yes. Joseph Smith has uttered predictions which cannot be disputed, and that have come to pass. Before his death he predicted that the Latter-day Saints should become a great people in the Rocky Mountains. Years before we were compelled to leave the States, he predicted that the South would rebel, and that the civil war would break out in South Carolina. That prediction was in print long years before it was fulfilled. And when it seemed as though the rebellion would break out in Florida, the Latter-day Saints never had any doubt as to where the war would commence. They knew the word of God had been spoken, and that it would be fulfilled. And it was fulfilled, literally, as also many other predictions which have been uttered. But do these things come to man in a way that man will receive them? No: they come in contact with worldly pride. They invoke the same opposition which Paul had when he was at Ephesus, when the silversmiths cried out, "Great is Diana of the Ephesians." And they bawled and cried so much in favor of Diana, that his voice was drowned. So it is to-day. These things come in contact with established institutions, with established crafts; man's craft is in danger, and hence the outcry. There is a great outcry, and it comes from those whose craft is most in danger. It has ever been so, and it will ever be so while man continues under the same influence which now operates upon him. (George Q. Cannon, June 12, 1881. Journal of Discourses 22:178) The Doctrine and Covenants, as well as the Book of Mormon, contains indisputable evidence of the divine calling and mission of Joseph Smith. For instance, I will refer the congregation to the revelation given Dec. 25th, 1832, in relation to the great war of the Rebellion, with which all are more or less familiar. A portion of that revelation has been literally fulfilled, even to the very place indicated in the prediction where the war should commence: which, as was therein stated, was to terminate in the death and misery of many souls. (Joseph F. Smith, April 6, 1884. Journal of Discourses 25:97) In Section 87 of the Doctrine and Covenants is the remarkable prophecy of Joseph Smith's, relating to the great rebellion of the Southern States. Before I read that part of the prophecy of which I wish more particularly to speak, I will pave the way for it. When reasoning with infidels on the truth of the Jewish Scriptures, I have often alluded to the many prophecies in the Bible, and then have shown from history that these predictions have been verified—hence they were inspired. They would generally try to destroy the force of my argument by claiming that the predictions were made after the events had transpired; that is, they were not predictions in fact, but were written by fanatics to deceive mankind. But I wish to show my young brethren this prophecy on the war of the rebellion cannot be overthrown by such assumptions as these, to which I have just alluded. This revelation and prophecy on war, was given December 25, 1832; the events it predicts did not commence until 1861—29 years after the prophecy was made. I have heard several of the leading Elders of the Church say, they carried with them manuscript copies of that prophecy in their preaching tours throughout the States, and . . . read it to the people. Better still—in the year 1851, Elder F. D. Richards published in England a book called, "The Pearl of Great Price;" among other interesting matter it contained, was this prophecy on war. This was nine years before the war it predicted began. As this book was widely circulated both in Europe and America, no one can ever use the old infidel argument against it—that is, that the prediction was made after the event had occurred.(B. H. Roberts, January 28, 1884. Journal of Discourses 25:141-142) Evidence outside of Mormon sources corroborates Mormon claims that the revelation was widely publicized by Mormons well before the events unfolded. My favorite is an article in a Philadelphia newspaper that reprinted the section from Doctrine and Covenants and asked, "Have we not had a prophet among us?" ("A Mormon Prophecy," Philadelphia Sunday Mercury, May 5, 1861.) | | | |
| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 04/14/2008 11:28 AM |
Alert |
Stephen A. Douglas, of the Lincoln/Douglas debates fame, is featured in another “bulls-eye” prophecy by Joseph Smith. At the time of the prophecy, Douglas was a bright but unknown Illinois attorney. He became a rising star in the national Democratic Party, defeating Abraham Lincoln for one of Illinois’ Senate seats and winning the Democratic nomination for the presidency in 1860. This prophecy is recorded in William Clayton’s (Smith’s secretary’s) journal (original in LDS Church Archives):
May 18th, 1843:—Dined with Judge Stephen A. Douglas, who is presiding at court. After dinner Judge Douglas requested President Smith to give him a history of the Missouri persecution, which he did in a very minute manner for about three hours . . . The judge listened with the greatest attention, and then spoke warmly in deprecation of Governor Boggs and the authorities in Missouri, who had taken part in the extermination, and said that any people that would do as the mobs of Missouri had done ought to be brought to judgment; they ought to be punished. President Smith . . . said . . . “Judge, you will aspire to the presidency of the United States; and if you ever turn your hand against me or the Latter-day Saints, you will feel the weight of the hand of the Almighty upon you; and you will live to see and know that I have testified the truth to you; for the conversation of this day will stick to you through life.” He [Judge Douglas] appeared very friendly and acknowledged the truth and propriety of President Smith's remarks.
This prophecy was first published in the Deseret News of September 24, 1856 (Utah) and in England, in the Millennial Star, February, 1859. Douglas was nominated as a presidential candidate at the Democratic Convention in Baltimore on June 23, 1860, where “The whole body rose to its feet, hats were waved in the air, and many tossed aloft; shouts, screams, and yells, and every boisterous mode of expressing approbation and unanimity, were resorted to” (Cooper's American Politics, 1:86. Quoted in Roberts, “Comprehensive History of the Church,” 2:184). Douglas’ prospects were initially very good: the Democratic Party had won the previous election by a margin of 174 to 122 electoral votes (split among two parties), and the popular vote by a margin of 1,838,169 to 1,215,798. In the election, however, Douglas mustered only 12 electoral votes, winning only the state of Missouri. Twenty days shy of one year after this stunning defeat, Douglas died in Chicago at the age of 48, a broken and disappointed man.
Douglas was initially friendly and helpful to Joseph Smith and the Mormons, even serving as judge for one of Smith’s trials in Illinois (Smith, though often harassed at law, was never convicted of anything). Fourteen years after the prophecy was given, and one year after it was published in the Deseret News, Douglas started to position himself for a White House bid and turned against the Mormons for political gain. In a speech in Springfield, Illinois on June 12, 1857 (published in the press June 18, 1857), Douglas blasted the Mormons:
. . . there will be no vacillating or hesitating policy. It will be as prompt as the peal that follows the flash—as stern and unyielding as death . . . the knife must be applied to this pestiferous, disgusting cancer which is gnawing into the very vitals of the body politic. It must be cut out by the roots and seared over by the red hot iron of stern and unflinching law . . . Should all efforts fail to bring them [the Mormons] to a sense of their duty, there is but one remedy left. Repeal the organic law of the territory, on the ground that they are alien enemies and outlaws, unfit citizens of one of the free and independent states of this confederacy.
Mormons in Utah Territory followed national news very closely (as closely as circumstances permitted), and were naturally very disappointed and angry with Douglas’ politically expedient shift, especially since he had befriended the Mormons and had first-hand knowledge that allegations he suddenly gave credence to were false. The Deseret News reacted with an editorial addressed directly to Douglas on September 2, 1857. Here is the closing paragraph:
In your last paragraph [of the Springfield speech] you say: 'I have thus presented to you plainly and fairly my views of the Utah question.' With at least equal plainness and with far more fairness have your views now been commented upon. And inasmuch as you were well acquainted with Joseph Smith, and this people, also with the character of our maligners, and did know their allegations were false, but must bark with the dogs who were snapping at our heels, to let them know that you were a dog with them; and also that you may have a testimony of the truth of the assertion that you did know Joseph Smith and his people and the character of their enemies (and neither class have changed, only as the saints have grown better and their enemies worse); and also that you may thoroughly understand that you have voluntarily, knowingly, and of choice sealed your damnation, and by your own chosen course have closed your chance for the presidential chair, through disobeying the counsel of Joseph which you formerly sought and prospered by following, and that you in common with us, may testify to all the world that Joseph was a true prophet, the following extract from the history of Joseph Smith is again printed for your benefit, and is kindly recommended to your careful perusal and most candid consideration.
Apostle Orson Hyde wrote a letter to the Deseret News and to Stephen A. Douglas, reminding him that he was present when Joseph Smith warned him about turning against the Mormons.
"EPHRAIM, UTAH TER., NOV. 27, 1860.
Will the judge now acknowledge that Joseph Smith was a true prophet? If he will not, does he recollect a certain conversation had with Mr. Smith at the house of [non-Mormon] Sheriff Backenstos, in Carthage, Illinois, in the year 1843, in which Mr. Smith said to him; 'you will yet aspire to the Presidency of the United States. But if you raise your hand or your voice against the Latter-day Saints, you shall never be President of the United States.'
Does Judge Douglas recollect that in a public speech delivered by him in the year 1857, at Springfield, Illinois, of comparing the 'Mormon' community, then constituting the inhabitants of Utah Territory, to a 'loathsome ulcer on the body politic,' and of recommending the knife to be applied to cut it out?
Among other things, the judge will doubtless recollect that I was present and heard the conversation between him and Joseph Smith at Mr. Backenstos' residence in Carthage, before alluded to.
Now, judge, what do you think about Joseph Smith and 'Mormonism?'
Signed "ORSON HYDE."
James Dwyer, a Mormon, related his conversation with Douglas in Connecticut in the heat of the election of 1860:
"In the year 1860 I was on a mission in the eastern states in the interest of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, having in charge especially the saints scattered throughout the state of Connecticut. In this capacity I was in the city of Norwich, Connecticut, when Judge Stephen A. Douglas made one of the greatest speeches of the presidential campaign of that year. Thousands of people came from all over the New England States to hear him. As he spoke from the veranda of the hotel at which I was stopping, and where he, too, had rooms, I heard his speech.
After the speaking was over, as I was on my way upstairs to my room, a thought came to me that I would like to know from Mr. Douglas himself how he stood in regard to Utah and the 'Mormon' question, since that had become an incident of considerable interest in the campaign. I retraced my steps, knocked on Mr. Douglas' door and was admitted to his presence. I introduced myself and told him that I was a 'Mormon.' When I told him I was a 'Mormon' he shook my hand very cordially and with a smile upon his face said he knew Joseph Smith well. Said he had very important relations with him during those troublesome times in Illinois. Said he always found Joseph Smith to be a perfect gentleman in every sense of the word. I then asked Mr. Douglas the following question:
Mr. Douglas, I would like to know what your course and policy will be toward Utah and the 'Mormon' people should you suceed in being elected to the presidency. His answer was this: (In a defiant attitude.) 'I hold Brigham Young and the "Mormon" people in utter contempt, and should I be elected I will use the full power of the law against them.'
I then took the liberty of saying to him: 'Mr. Douglas, in consequence of the speeches you made against Brigham Young and the 'Mormon' people in Cleveland, and which appeared consecutively in the Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper at that time, and your present views and intended policy, 'I feel to say to you with all due respect and candor, you never can reach the White House on such a record.'
(Signed) "JAMES DWYER."
"Subscribed and sworn to before me this 7th day of March, 1911.
(Signed) "ROBERT S. JUDD.
Notary Public."
"My commission expires December 19, 1914."
(SEAL.)
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 04/14/2008 11:33 AM |
Alert | I forgot to include some statements from Mormon leaders that preceded the fateful election of 1860, and demonstrate awareness of the prophecy and confidence that it would come to pass.
Many of you have sustained Judge Douglas as being a true friend to this people; and he is just as big a damned rascal as ever walked, and always has been. He has taken a course to get into the chair of State, and that is what he is after: he will try to accomplish that, if he goes to hell the next day; but he will not go into the chair of State . . . (Heber C. Kimball, August 23, 1857. Journal of Discourses 5:178)
When I was back in Washington last season, I had a long conversation with Senator Douglas; and he is a kind of personification of modern democracy—very thick, but not very long. He asked a great many questions about our Temple, and I gave him a description of the foundation, and he asked me if I expected we would ever be able to accomplish it? The manner he communicated it was to show that he had his eye upon another thing than that which he alluded to; but I realised then just as well as I did when I read his proposition to "cut out the loathsome ulcer." I said to him, "O Judge, we are not a little handful, as we were in Nauvoo: we can now do anything we have a mind to." (George A. Smith, September 13, 1857. Journal of Discourses 5:225)
I do exceedingly regret having mislaid [a new religious tract], for I would like to send it to Senator Douglas, with a request that he read it faithfully before he applies the knife to "cut out the loathsome ulcer." Having read it, then, if he shall be disposed and able to cut, cut away and carve up to suit his own peculiar appetite and that also of his friends. Will some person having said tract or pamphlet be kind enough to mail it to Honourable Stephen A. Douglas, Washington City, D.C.? But, let all men, however, know, that if what the honourable gentleman calls the "loathsome ulcer" be cut out according to his views and suggestions, the United States will be cut off from being a nation, and her star of empire set, and set in blood!(Orson Hyde, November 1, 1857. Journal of Discourses 6:47-48)
The move that is being made now is simply a political scheme, out of which to make political capital. It was started by interested demagogues for that purpose, in order that they might have the honor of putting down "Mormonism," and sailing into power on the current of incensed public opinion. Now they can have all the honor they can get on that score; and I guess it will be the same as Stephen A. Douglas and others have attained to by pursuing that course, and I think no more. (John Taylor, October 7, 1879. Journal of Discourses 22:2-3) | | | |
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| | DaybyDay
Posts:288
| | 04/14/2008 2:31 PM |
Alert | You're kidding right? This is awfully long and convoluted. I know I asked the question but I have a headache trying to get through this and the language.
AND, where does it say that this came before the Civil War? What is the indisuputable proof? You believe this because who told you it did? | | | |
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| | thomasmagnum
Posts:88
| | 04/14/2008 2:50 PM |
Alert | Yawn............... can I offer you a coke, or a beer maybe?
How about a smoke?
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An Armed Man Is A Citizen, An Unarmed Man Is A Subject | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 04/14/2008 5:56 PM |
Alert | Posted By DaybyDay on 04/14/2008 2:31 PM
You're kidding right? This is awfully long and convoluted. I know I asked the question but I have a headache trying to get through this and the language.
AND, where does it say that this came before the Civil War? What is the indisuputable proof? You believe this because who told you it did? I know it's a lot of stuff, but it's not convoluted. The language is from nineteenth century, so that takes some getting used to if you're not accustomed to it. I knew that most people wouldn't read through all of it, but I get tired of people saying "there's no outside, independent proof." These two are very solid on this score. If you take the time to re-read, you will find: 1. The Mormons claim that the revelation was recorded in 1832. Mormons claim that they shared this revelation with others in missionary efforts throughout the decades between 1832 and 1861. 2. The revelation was published with a set of revelations in 1851, so Mormons were committed to the prediction ten years before the events happened. This is easily verified for the skeptical; simply find an 1851 Pearl of Great Price. The revelation is actually hyped on the title page of this edition as a new addition. 3. You have a Philadelphia newspaper printing the revelation shortly after the attack on Fort Sumter, asking the question, "Have we not had a prophet among us?" This is corroborative non-Mormon evidence for Mormon claims about the dissemination of the revelation. With the Douglas revelation, you have 1. A verifiable, authentic 1843 journal entry from Joseph Smith's secretary. 2. Public and published references to the revelation and expectations of its fulfillment by Mormon leaders throughout the 1850s. These are available in period sets of Journal of Discourses (10,000 pages of talks by Mormon leaders from 1851 to 1886). 3. Newspaper articles and letter to editors from the 1850s and during the 1860 election. These can be verified at major universities (Utah universities have digitized scores of newspapers from the 1840s to the present, which are available online, or in archives in the originals) Is any of this likely to get people to admit or be open to the possibility of Joseph Smith being a true prophet who are not otherwise inclined to? No. It should at least make people think a bit before they say that there is no evidence for these revelations outside of Mormon sources, which have probably been reworked after the fact. These were verifiably in the books and in circulation long before the fulfillment. | | | |
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|  | DaybyDay
Posts:288
| | 04/14/2008 7:23 PM |
Alert | That's part of my concern. What non-Mormon sources do you have to prove any of this was revealed prior etc...
I also think that you have to accept the Mormon books as true. If you don't accept them as true, then I doubt you will accept this revelations as true either. | | | |
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| | RichTig
Posts:0
| | 04/14/2008 8:37 PM |
Alert | | To some up: moinmoin's imaginary friend is different than daybyday's imaginary friend. | | | |
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| | drummer72
Posts:3624
| | 04/14/2008 10:18 PM |
Alert | Posted By DaybyDay on 04/14/2008 7:23 PM
That's part of my concern. What non-Mormon sources do you have to prove any of this was revealed prior etc...
I also think that you have to accept the Mormon books as true. If you don't accept them as true, then I doubt you will accept this revelations as true either. There's more truth in Mad magazine... | |
"Everything for everyone and nothing for ourselves" | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:594
| | 04/15/2008 8:08 AM |
Alert | "For false Christs and flase prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect - if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." Matthew 24:24-27
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them - bringing swift destruction of themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping." 2Peter 2:1-3 | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 04/15/2008 8:34 AM |
Alert | The sources have dates; copywright dates, newpaper printing dates. These ARE outside (non-mormon) sources. I suppose conspiracy could be claimed. But that is very unlikely, considering the way ink and paper can be dated as it can. . . If I didn't believe - I would be more inclined to go with the "Of the devil" line than that outside sources don't support it. . . Similar to the way I canNOT deny there are pyschics out there who actually find and solve crimes. I CAN disagree with where their knowledge came from. . . IF you go with the evil concept, I suppose you would also have to go on and show where the works are not good. I know many people have tried this with JS. I find what they say to be twisted. I do the same thing with pyschics (works are evil) when I say, they lead people away from God and teach them to rely on their words and their prophecies instead of worshiping God and trusting in the Lord as they should; they trust in the pyschic. (BTW - this is NOT what the LDS do with JS - our teachings are to rely on the LORD for our own personal revelation - to not blindly believe simply because someone - including prophets- have said it.) Of course, if pyschics are actually solving crimes - they are either witnessing them, committing them or receiving these visions from somewhere - well, they are not from God! Yeah, I think I would go with them from Satan - over the conspiracy theory anyday! In terms of having to believe in the books in order to believe the prophecies, testimonies come in different ways. Some people find their testimony of JS long before their testimony of the scriptures. MOST find it the other way around In Moroni, chapter 10 we find this: 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how amerciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and bponder it in your chearts. 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with dreal intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the btruth of all things. I grew up LDS so for me, this scripture makes complete sense. 5 aIf any of you lack bwisdom, let him ask of God, that cgiveth to all men liberally, and dupbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Has a similar flare to it! Basically, we believe, the trick to knowing, is asking! God speaks to us. Not just through the scriptures, but to us personally! I believe it! I more than believe it - I KNOW it as I have had it happen time and time again. Now, God is not telling me when the neighbor is going to suddenly take care of their weeds, but I learn through personal revelation, and I serve through personal revelation, and I have seen miracles come when I have listened to what the Lord has said. If you want to know (and not tell God, but have Him tell you) if JS was a prophet, that testimony can be gained before the testimony of the 'books'. So, no, one does not HAVE to come before the other. But as I said, usually it does. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 04/15/2008 9:39 AM |
Alert | Posted By DaybyDay on 04/14/2008 7:23 PM
That's part of my concern. What non-Mormon sources do you have to prove any of this was revealed prior etc...
I also think that you have to accept the Mormon books as true. If you don't accept them as true, then I doubt you will accept this revelations as true either. Absolutely. This is a good point. True, verified prophecies in and of themselves won't compel anyone to believe anything if they aren't already open to it. Your first question is like asking "What non-Christian sources are there to verify events and sayings in the New Testament?" The initial sources have to be from the believers (the prophecies, revelations, etc.). An 1851 book of scripture, while from the Mormons, still proves that the prophecy was in circulation before the Civil War began in 1861. Even though it's a Mormon source. And what about the Philadelphia (non-Mormon) newspaper article? I'm not sure why people are hesitant to accept "Mormon" sources that can be proven to pre-date the events (original editions, books, newspaper articles, etc.). Okay, maybe I am sure ----- that would entail admitting that there are some prophecies by Joseph Smith that predated events by decades. And no one wants to go down that road . . . . | | | |
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| | thomasmagnum
Posts:88
| | 04/15/2008 12:48 PM |
Alert | two words to our Mormon "freinds"
MOUNTAIN MEADOWS
If you dont know google it. | |
An Armed Man Is A Citizen, An Unarmed Man Is A Subject | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:594
| | 04/15/2008 12:50 PM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 04/15/2008 9:39 AM I'm not sure why people are hesitant to accept "Mormon" sources that can be proven to pre-date the events (original editions, books, newspaper articles, etc.). Okay, maybe I am sure ----- that would entail admitting that there are some prophecies by Joseph Smith that predated events by decades. And no one wants to go down that road . . . . "As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to tech false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work - which is by faith." 1Timothy 1:3-4 Shouldn't we stick with the Bible since we know this is the complete Word of God? There is nothing in the Bible that tells us to expect Joseph Smith who will explain it all to us more clearly. And regardless of what Smith predicted, it doesn't mean it necessarily came from a good place. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 04/15/2008 1:52 PM |
Alert | Posted By thomasmagnum on 04/15/2008 12:48 PM
two words to our Mormon "freinds"
MOUNTAIN MEADOWS
If you dont know google it. What does the Mountain Meadows Massacre have to do with whether Joseph Smith was a prophet or not? By the way, I like your avatar, magnum. That brings back memories! | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 04/15/2008 1:56 PM |
Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 04/15/2008 12:50 PM Shouldn't we stick with the Bible since we know this is the complete Word of God? Where does it say that?  If someone read Mormon scriptures and investigated its teachings and asked God if it is from Him or not, do you believe that God would answer that prayer, pro et con? | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:594
| | 04/15/2008 2:53 PM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 04/15/2008 1:56 PM Posted By Bionicbunny on 04/15/2008 12:50 PM Shouldn't we stick with the Bible since we know this is the complete Word of God? Where does it say that? If someone read Mormon scriptures and investigated its teachings and asked God if it is from Him or not, do you believe that God would answer that prayer, pro et con?
Maybe He would, maybe not. Maybe He answers but some people are not ready to 'hear' Him, or they 'hear' what their own desires are instead. I don't have all the answers, there is so much I won't know unitl I get to heaven. I can tell you that I have had mormons come to my door, invited them in and spoke with them about God, the Bible and the book of Mormon. When they left, I went in to my room and prayed for wisdom and discernment and that I would see the truth and the path He wanted me to take. When I was through my overall thought was that they had been led astray. I kept having the overwhelming desire to pray for them and I did. So like you moinmoin, I believe God has directed me, it just happens to be a different way then He has directed you. The reason why I don't know. | | | |
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| | DaybyDay
Posts:288
| | 04/15/2008 4:15 PM |
Alert | The LDS prophet and LDS God are not the God of the Bible, so I don't know who would be answering those prayers or investigations. However, the Bible is quite clear that you are not to add or take away anything from the book and the verse that Bionicbunny is also quite clear in that as well. | | | |
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| | qwerty
Posts:139
| | 04/16/2008 12:54 PM |
Alert | Posted By DaybyDay on 04/15/2008 4:15 PM However, the Bible is quite clear that you are not to add or take away anything from the book and the verse that Bionicbunny is also quite clear in that as well. A recent talk by one of the leaders of the LDS Church discussed this very topic. I would invite you to read through it as it answered a lot of my questions about this debate. lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-851-30,00.html Excerpt from the above link:
One of the arguments often used in any defense of a closed canon is the New Testament passage recorded in Revelation 22:18: “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of . . . this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.” However, there is now overwhelming consensus among virtually all biblical scholars that this verse applies only to the book of Revelation, not the whole Bible. Those scholars of our day acknowledge a number of New Testament “books” that were almost certainly written after John’s revelation on the Isle of Patmos was received. Included in this category are at least the books of Jude, the three Epistles of John, and probably the entire Gospel of John itself.1 Perhaps there are even more than these. But there is a simpler answer as to why that passage in the final book of the current New Testament cannot apply to the whole Bible. That is because the whole Bible as we know it—one collection of texts bound in a single volume—did not exist when that verse was written. For centuries after John produced his writing, the individual books of the New Testament were in circulation singly or perhaps in combinations with a few other texts but almost never as a complete collection. Of the entire corpus of 5,366 known Greek New Testament manuscripts, only 35 contain the whole New Testament as we now know it, and 34 of those were compiled after A.D. 1000. The fact of the matter is that virtually every prophet of the Old and New Testament has added scripture to that received by his predecessors. If the Old Testament words of Moses were sufficient, as some could have mistakenly thought them to be, then why, for example, the subsequent prophecies of Isaiah or of Jeremiah, who follows him? To say nothing of Ezekiel and Daniel, of Joel, Amos, and all the rest. If one revelation to one prophet in one moment of time is sufficient for all time, what justifies these many others? | | | |
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