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| | Author | Messages | |
hastings1066
Posts:653
 | | 02/23/2008 11:19 AM |
 Alert | Posted By EEE on 02/23/2008 10:26 AM Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/23/2008 10:22 AM
for starters, we know the earth is 6000 years old. that count? Do you know how or where Christians get the 6000-10,000 year old earth from? In the 1600s Bishop Ussher used the geneologies listed in genesis to arrive at the age of the earth. A begat B who lived for 700 years and begat C ........ . | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:238
| | 02/23/2008 6:28 PM |
Alert | Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/23/2008 8:29 AM 75% of the US population is Christian, 10 % are Atheist. 75% of prisoners are Christian, 0.2% are Atheist. thoughts? 1. What is your source for this? 2. What is the breakdown, by percentage, of prison population by race? 3. Would you use the breakdown by percentage, of prison population by race to make the same inferences about races that you and some others are using the above for in making inferences about Christian religiosity / atheism and their effects in producing prison populations? Why or why not? | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:238
| | 02/23/2008 6:33 PM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 02/23/2008 9:22 AM Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/23/2008 9:14 AM
question, why aren't any of these prisoners converting to mormonism? Mormons only represent .4% of the prison population. The Mormons don't bother with them since the prisoners don't work and can't contribute money to their enterprise? This is untrue. We have an extensive prison ministry housed in what we refer to as the "Gila River Branch," which is part of the Casa Grande Stake (which encompasses Florence). Church services and counseling are provided for incarcerated Mormons and anybody else who wants to attend. It is quite a bit harder, however, for the missionaries to knock on cell bars instead of knocking on doors!  And prisoners would have to wait until they have served their sentences and met their obligations to society before being baptized. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:238
| | 02/23/2008 6:36 PM |
Alert | I think it goes without saying that nominal Christians who do something that merits prison or jail are not following what their churches teach. Their existence, however, shouldn't be mustered into service to reflect on those churches, or on members of those churches who do live how they are taught.
Would you agree, 8DaysDazed? | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:300
| | 02/23/2008 7:20 PM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 02/23/2008 6:33 PM And prisoners would have to wait until they have served their sentences and met their obligations to society before being baptized. Interesting. Is this a true statement, or were you joking. I can't honestly tell. Most Christians who don't believe in covenant theology baptize an individual based on their profession of faith. If your statement is true, what passage from the bible do you base this off of on when to baptize an individual. | |
"...Sunday morning, in America, is the greatest hour of idolatry in the whole week. Why? Because most people, who are even worshipping God, are worshipping a God they don't know."---Paul Washer. | |
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| | EEE
Posts:300
| | 02/23/2008 7:46 PM |
Alert | Posted By RichTig on 02/23/2008 10:35 AM Posted By EEE on 02/23/2008 10:17 AM Posted By RichTig on 02/23/2008 10:07 AM Prisoners have nothing to do but read all the famous fables: Aesop, Mother Goose, the Bible, the Koran and other works of fiction. Can you prove the Bible is fiction? Please share the information you have learned from your extensive research that warrents categorizing the Bible as fiction.
A penchant for exaggeration:The bible simply cannot simply tell a story. It exaggerates to the point of being absurd. For example, it describes a flood that is so great in magnitude that the highest land-based mountains are subjmerged. While there is evidence that flooding occured in the area, there is absolutely no evidence for a flood of this size.
Ok so you don't believe that the events in the bible happened. Again, were is the proof that the bible is a fable. This is not proof, this is an opinion. Science: The bible is completely at odds with practically every branch of science. It states that humans and other animals were created as is. Evolutionary biology has the evidence that says we and the other animals evolved over the course of millions of years. The Bible states that the earth is thousands of years old. Various branches of the physical sciences (astronomy and geology for example) have the evidence that the earth is billions of years old and that the universe itself is even older that it. Archaeology and anthropology undermine the uniqueness and factualness of the Bible stories (ie, the flood of Noah is older than the biblical account, the collapsed wall of Jericho predates the biblical story). This is not true. The science you say proves the age of the earth is proven unreliable. The same test they used to guess the age of the earth, gave a date of millions of years for lava flows that occurred in the past few hundred years or even decades. Plus,There is plenty of science that says the timeline for a young universe is accurate. Here is a few for example. http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp Magic: The bible promotes a view that is completely at odds with how we understand the universe and all things in it. Polite people call that view “supernatural in origin”. I call it plain ole “magic “. Magic in the bible includes a talking snake, a talking donkey, a tree that makes you smart, a tree that makes you immune to death, food falling from the skies, rods turning into snakes, water being turned into blood, water coming out of a rock, people rising from the dead, the sun standing still, witches resurrecting the dead, non-corporeal finger writing on walls, people taking three day rides in the stomach of a whale, virgins giving birth and countless angels and demons inserting themselves into the affairs here on earth. Accordingly, this view promotes the idea that reality can be suspended at any moment without warning and makes dealing with said reality near impossible. I will just quote myself for this one, because you are not proofing anything, just giving an opinion. "Ok so you don't believe that the events in the bible happened. Again, were is the proof that the bible is a fable. This is not proof, this is an opinion." Other Books:The Bible is not unique in claiming to be the word of a god and is in fact just one of many such works. Other such works include (but not limited to): - Qur’an (Islam)
- Egyptian Book of the Dead (spells & rules concerning the afterlife for ancient Egyptians)
- Vedas (Hindu)
- Bhagavad Gitas (Hindu)
- Tantras (Buddhism)
- Adi Granth (Sikhism)
- Purvas (Jainism)
- Tripitaka (Pali, Chinese & Tibetan - Buddhism)
- Tao Te Ching (Buddhism)
- Book of Mormon (Christianity: Latter Day Saints)
- Dianetics (Scienteology)
The Bible is unique vs. these other books. These books have 1 author who claim they are inspired by God that contradict with what the bible teaches. The Bible is a collection of letters/epistles of about 40 authors and each of those letters are in harmony with each other with no contradictions. The Old Testament prophesied the events in the New Testament. The New Testament prophesied events that has already happened. There are early 1st century writings from people not in the bible that died for these truths. This could be a whole different thread. All I will say is the Protestant Bible is correct. All you have to do is read the writing to determine the extra books the catholic bible has shouldn't be there. Ok, Languages evolve so do translations. The doctrines didn't change between the KJV, NKJV, NIV, ESV, NASB. There are no new teachings from the early bibles to the bibles we have today. There are other reasons also such as the often bizarre, dangerous and violent behaviour of bible-believers against themselves as well as others. Bible verses are routinely used as reasons for assaulting children, withholding medical care, physical mutilation, xenophobic tendencies, denial of pleasure and many other things. In conclusion, the Bible has played a dreadful role in our history. It is full of errors, contradictions and absurdities. The problems we have overcome have been in spite of, not because of the Bible. It has been through the application of reason and science that we have overcome the things it has condoned, even demanded. Pretending otherwise is plain silly. Again no proof here the bible is a fable, just mere opinions. I'm sorry your idea of God and the Bible doesn't fit what it should be, but that doesn't make it not true. How about those reasons, for starters? Honestly, those are valid proofs the bible is not valid? In your mind you became logically convinced the bible is a fable from the lack of evidence you just posted? Please recognize those were opinions, not facts. | |
"...Sunday morning, in America, is the greatest hour of idolatry in the whole week. Why? Because most people, who are even worshipping God, are worshipping a God they don't know."---Paul Washer. | |
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|  | TheBoymaker
Posts:610
| | | missPolitick
Posts:604
| | 02/25/2008 9:42 AM |
Alert | | Ha! | |
Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:238
| | 02/25/2008 3:45 PM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 02/23/2008 7:20 PM Posted By moinmoin on 02/23/2008 6:33 PM And prisoners would have to wait until they have served their sentences and met their obligations to society before being baptized. Interesting. Is this a true statement, or were you joking. I can't honestly tell. Most Christians who don't believe in covenant theology baptize an individual based on their profession of faith. If your statement is true, what passage from the bible do you base this off of on when to baptize an individual. No, not joking. I usually will paste a smiley just to make sure there's no misunderstanding.  Would you say that Mormonism falls under the "covenant theology" heading? I know you don't think we're Christian, so that may be your answer, right there, but given the emphasis Mormons place on covenants, I wondered what your definition of "covenant theology" is. As you know, Mormons don't base their beliefs solely on the Bible. We base our doctrines and practices on what the Bible is based on: revelation (including continuing or modern revelation). One area in which latter-day scripture supports and greatly clarifies the Bible is the topic of repentance. What is repentance, and what does it mean? Doctrine and Covenants defines repentance as confessing and forsaking sin (Section 58:42-43), and Moroni recorded the practice in the church among Book of Mormon peoples after Christ's ministry. People: "were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.
Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins. And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.
And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith." (Moroni 6:1-4). Part of the repentance process for people who have committed serious crimes (in addition to recognizing that they have sinned, feeling godly sorrow for the sin, confessing the sin to God and priesthood authority [when required], asking God for forgiveness, committing never to do the sin again) is to make restitution, where possible. In cases of serious crime, this includes serving the sentence and fulfilling other imposed societal obligations. This really bothers people who believe in "altar call" salvation, or salvation upon profession of faith. I think the two different approaches translate into different ways of living, however. Many of Governor Huckabee's pardons to violent felons (including the one he banished from the state who raped a women in a neighboring state) were because, to him, their professions of faith and being saved in prison are sacrosanct. We Mormons require a little more than that!  | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:300
| | 02/25/2008 7:02 PM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 02/25/2008 3:45 PM No, not joking. I usually will paste a smiley just to make sure there's no misunderstanding. Would you say that Mormonism falls under the "covenant theology" heading? I know you don't think we're Christian, so that may be your answer, right there, but given the emphasis Mormons place on covenants, I wondered what your definition of "covenant theology" is. Those who hold to Covenant Theology believe that there is, and has always been, only one people of God. They believe that Israel was the Church in the Old Testament, and the Church is Israel in the New Testament. The view popular here in the U.S. is Dispensationalism. They make a distinction between Israel and the Church in God's program. The average Christian has no clue what they believe in regards to those views or what the bible says about it. They could however probably reguritate something out of the "Left Behind" series.  (Which is Tim LaHaye's view of the end times which is the result of having a Dispensationalist view) Thus, a reason most of the Christians in America are Dispensationalist Wow, I kinda got off topic, this is about Baptism. Well, without going into too much detail, Most of those who believe in Covenant theology believe in Infant Baptism instead of Believer's Baptism.  So I don't know if Mormons would fall into Covenant theology. It depends on their view of Israel and the Church. As you know, Mormons don't base their beliefs solely on the Bible. What!!! You got to be kidding me!  J/K
This really bothers people who believe in "altar call" salvation, or salvation upon profession of faith. I think the two different approaches translate into different ways of living, however. Then maybe you would please to hear I am against altar calls. My last church didn't even do altar calls. I believe Altar calls are the leading reason there are a bunch of fake Christians walking around. These are the ones that put a bad taste in peoples mouth about Christianity.(One of the reasons this thread was started!) Many of Governor Huckabee's pardons to violent felons (including the one he banished from the state who raped a women in a neighboring state) were because, to him, their professions of faith and being saved in prison are sacrosanct. Good thing Huckabee is not God. We Mormons require a little more than that! You require more than that for Salvation, but however the bible teaches one should be baptized to testify before others they are Saved, not for Salvation. If baptism is necessary for salvation, why would Paul have said, "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius" (1 Corinthians 1:14)? Why would he have said, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel - not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power" (1 Corinthians 1:17) Also, when Paul gives a detailed outline of what he considers the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-8), why does he neglect to mention baptism? If baptism is a requirement for salvation, how could any presentation of the Gospel lack a mentioning of baptism? | |
"...Sunday morning, in America, is the greatest hour of idolatry in the whole week. Why? Because most people, who are even worshipping God, are worshipping a God they don't know."---Paul Washer. | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3377
| | 02/26/2008 10:13 AM |
Alert | Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/23/2008 8:29 AM 75% of the US population is Christian, 10 % are Atheist. 75% of prisoners are Christian, 0.2% are Atheist. thoughts?
Do your statistics show how many of those converted to Christianity while in prison? Do you even have a source for your statistics?
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Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3377
| | 02/26/2008 10:22 AM |
Alert | Since they've probably all read the bible (plenty of time to do that) and thus know that there is a difference between christians and "true christians" , wouldn't those that answered christian to the survey be true christians? That doesn't even make sense. EEE just told you that not all who claim to be Christian are Christian. Then you go on to state that all who claim to be Christian in prison must be Christian? That doesn't make sense.  Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/23/2008 9:12 AM
but they do claim to have a higher set of morals. obviously that's not accurate.  Having a code of morals is not the same as actually following them 100%. Where did you get the idea it was? Can you do any better than drive-by-statistics that you got from Digg? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | RichTig
Posts:1058
| | 02/26/2008 11:57 AM |
Alert | Christian Morality is an Oxymoron. | | | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:1266
| | 02/26/2008 11:57 AM |
Alert | | The same can also be said of Atheists............ | |
"When the government fears the People, that is Liberty. When the People fear the Government, that is tyranny."
~ Thomas Jefferson | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81
| | 02/26/2008 5:52 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 02/26/2008 10:13 AM Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/23/2008 8:29 AM 75% of the US population is Christian, 10 % are Atheist. 75% of prisoners are Christian, 0.2% are Atheist. thoughts?
Do your statistics show how many of those converted to Christianity while in prison? Do you even have a source for your statistics?
Nope, but it doesn't show how many converted to atheism either after realizing their christian upbringing landed their butts in jail either.
Google it, you'll find it. | | | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81
| | 02/26/2008 5:52 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 02/26/2008 10:13 AM Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/23/2008 8:29 AM 75% of the US population is Christian, 10 % are Atheist. 75% of prisoners are Christian, 0.2% are Atheist. thoughts?
Do your statistics show how many of those converted to Christianity while in prison? Do you even have a source for your statistics?
Nope, but it doesn't show how many converted to atheism either after realizing their christian upbringing landed their butts in jail either.
Google it, you'll find it. | | | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81
| | 02/26/2008 5:56 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 02/26/2008 10:22 AM Since they've probably all read the bible (plenty of time to do that) and thus know that there is a difference between christians and "true christians" , wouldn't those that answered christian to the survey be true christians? That doesn't even make sense. EEE just told you that not all who claim to be Christian are Christian. Then you go on to state that all who claim to be Christian in prison must be Christian? That doesn't make sense. You think I believe what she says? She thinks she's above everybody, including other christians. How does that make the rest of you feel? Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/23/2008 9:12 AM
but they do claim to have a higher set of morals. obviously that's not accurate. Having a code of morals is not the same as actually following them 100%. Where did you get the idea it was? Can you do any better than drive-by-statistics that you got from Digg?
Good call. I don't get much time to surf these days, Digg is a great source to keep up on things. | | | |
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| | hastings1066
Posts:653
| | 02/26/2008 5:59 PM |
Alert | Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/26/2008 5:52 PM Posted By Jason on 02/26/2008 10:13 AM Posted By 8DaysDazed on 02/23/2008 8:29 AM 75% of the US population is Christian, 10 % are Atheist. 75% of prisoners are Christian, 0.2% are Atheist. thoughts?
Do your statistics show how many of those converted to Christianity while in prison? Do you even have a source for your statistics?
Nope, but it doesn't show how many converted to atheism either after realizing their christian upbringing landed their butts in jail either.
Google it, you'll find it.
Please explain how a Christian upbringing would lead one to a life of crime. What Christian teaching encourages one to commit crimes? | | | |
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| | 8DaysDazed
Posts:81
| | 02/26/2008 6:41 PM |
Alert | If you think you have the answers, you are less likely to search for the truth. not my quote, but relevant.
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| | Jason
Posts:3377
| | 02/27/2008 12:39 AM |
Alert | You have a fundamental misunderstanding of debate. If you present a statistic and I ask a question about the fundamental make-up of the statistic, you need to answer the question in order for your argument/inference/implication to stand.
No, Digg is not a "good" source.  Some things, yes, but political and religious topics are highly and illogically biased. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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