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Subject: "LDS people don't put down the religion of others."
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moinmoinUser is Offline

Posts:413


02/25/2008 2:36 PM Alert 
Posted By Bionicbunny on 02/24/2008 7:04 PM

When I asked about the sealing of a family I asked 'what if mom, dad and 3 kids are sealed, then one of the children decides as an adult that he/she does not want to follow the mormon faith anymore.  Do they still stay sealed?  And I was told yes, because of the work that the parents put in to sealing them together'  Loveathm, is that right?

Sealings are still valid, even if people don't adhere to the church's teachings, unless an ordinance called "cancellation of sealing" is performed (such as when people don't want to be sealed anymore. These are difficult to obtain and must be approved by apostolic authority, the authority that Christ gave Peter when He gave him "the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matthew 16:19).

We believe that we have our agency (ability to make choices, accept, and reject) after this life, just as we had before coming to earth and here on earth. Thus, people who are "sealed" but don't want it or haven't fulfilled their part of the covenant won't realize those blessings, even if they have been sealed. The Book of Mormon also teaches that the same spirit, attitudes, beliefs, habits, etc. we have in life will continue with us:

"And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world." (Alma 34:33-34)

So, people won't find themselves in the hereafter and automatically say," Wow! I was wrong all along! I'd better get with the program and repent!" Repentance will be possible in the hereafter, but people who repent there or are open to the gospel there would have had the same reaction and attitude here on earth.

moinmoinUser is Offline

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02/25/2008 2:54 PM Alert 

Posted By Bionicbunny on 02/24/2008 7:08 PM
Do mormons believe that in heaven there is still only one God, and we will spend our eternal life praising Him?

Yes. Our God will always be our God.

There are many open questions within Mormonism that are not authoritatively settled by scripture or prophets. With these questions, there are a range of beliefs Mormons hold, and given that there are no authoritative answers, people may hold different views on these matters.

An example of this type of open question is: Can we become gods in the exact same sense that God is God? My personal view is no; Joseph Smith taught that God the Father had also been a Savior (and this idea has biblical support). In my view, those who are exalted in the celestial kingdom with their spouses will be gods in the sense of dwelling with God and helping Him in creating and whatever else may be. We will be "partakers of the divine nature" and have "all that the Father has," as the scriptures say. Other experienced and believing Mormons' view is that we can, indeed, become gods in the exact same sense that God and his wife/wives are God.

There is no monolithic Mormon "creed" or "catechism" on this question.

 

moinmoinUser is Offline

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02/25/2008 3:12 PM Alert 
Posted By EEE on 02/24/2008 7:33 PM

Serious questions, what is the Mormon teaching on family seals if the son reaches god status like his father?  Does the son and the father live on their seperate planet and are all these plants in the Celestial Kingdom level of heaven?  Speaking of planets, do the Mormons who reach god status, live on their planets or just become the god of that planet and live in the Celestial Kingdom?  While you are a god, do you still worship your god?  If not, why?

 

Also, in those rare cases a Mormon has a divorce and remarries, is his eternal seal to his first wife or second wife or to both? 

Thanks,  I promise I won't reply with a rebuttal, I'm strickly curious.

Nothing wrong with rebuttals! Just call them "follow-up questions!"  And seriously, please ask any follow-up questions. It would be a pretty boring message board or thread without them.

To answer your last question first: sealings to former spouses may or may not remain when remarrying. Women may only be sealed to one man, so a woman would have to obtain a "cancellation of sealing" to her first husband in order to be sealed to another man. A man who is sealed to a woman may be sealed to other women, just not simultaneously (since 1890, anyway. Sorry to disappoint you, Dirty Birdie!)  Some things will have to be sorted out in the hereafter as well.

With regard to your first questions, I would stress that knowing of the existence of others who have attained godhood doesn't mean that we don't worship and focus on our God only. Just like a private in the Army may be aware of the existence of four star generals, which is nice and all that, but his universe is dictated, controlled, and impacted infinitely more by his drill sergeant.

Mormon apostle Orson Pratt explained that the concept of “God” refers to a state of divinity that has always existed; hence, in that sense, there has always been God, since all Gods are unified:

“In one sense of the word, there are more Gods than one; and in another sense there is but one God. The Scriptures speak of more Gods than one . . . All these beings of course are one, the same as the Father and the Son are one. The Son is called God, and so is the Father, and in some places the Holy Ghost is called God. They are one in power, in wisdom, in knowledge, and in the inheritance of celestial glory; they are one in their works; they possess all things, and all things are subject to them; they act in unison; and if one has power to become the Father of spirits, so has another; if one God can propagate his species, and raise up spirits after his own image and likeness, and call them his sons and daughters, so can all other Gods that become like him, do the same thing; consequently, there will be many Fathers, and there will be many families, and many sons and daughters; and they will be the children of those glorified, celestial beings that are counted worthy to be Gods” (Journal of Discourses 1:56-57).

Elsewhere, Elder Pratt, commenting on criticisms about this, noted that there can be many Gods and at the same time one God:

“For instance, the world reads in the revelations we have received, that there are more Gods than one. This is something that does not immediately concern us; but yet opposers get up and contend against us, and prejudice the minds of congregations against the people of God, because they profess to believe . . . in a plurality of Gods . . . I [have] endeavored to . . . show [critics] wherein we believe in the plurality of Gods, and yet acknowledge only one God. I believe both of these principles with all my heart. I believe there is one only wise God, and I believe there is an immense number of Gods” (Journal of Discourses 2:58-59).

Surely, a trinitarian shouldn’t scoff at such reasoning, as this also figures into attempts to explain the mystery of the trinity to confused non-initiates!

On Isaiah 43:10, Elder Pratt explained:

"But" inquires one, "how are you going to get along with the passage, in Isaiah, where the Lord declared that, 'There is no God before me, nor shall there be any after me?'" How can we believe this, when we believe in the revelation given through Joseph Smith, which says there are many Gods, and that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are Gods . . . Paul also speaks of the only wise God. Perhaps some may suppose that it is translated improperly. But you will find the same thing in the Book of Mormon, translated by the Urim and Thummim; the same things are also contained in the new translation of the book of Genesis, given to Moses, where the Lord declares that, "There is no God besides me." In these expressions, God has reference to the great principles of light and truth, or knowledge, and not to the tabernacles in which this knowledge may dwell; the tabernacles are many and without number, but the truth or knowledge which is often personified and called God, is one, being the same in all; God is one, being a unity, when represented by light, truth, wisdom, or knowledge; but when reference is made to the temples in which this knowledge dwells, the number of Gods is infinite. This explains the mystery . . . the attributes of Deity are one; and they constitute the one God that the Prophets speak of, and that the children of men in all worlds worship. One world has a personal God or Father, and the inhabitants thereof worship the attributes of that God, another world has another, and they worship His attributes, and besides Him there is no other; and when they worship Him they are at the same time worshipping the same attributes that dwell in all the personal Gods who fill immensity . . . And when we find the Father of Jesus Christ, we will worship Him, not the flesh and bones, but the attributes (Journal of Discourses 2:345-346).

 

 

moinmoinUser is Offline

Posts:413


02/25/2008 3:19 PM Alert 
Posted By AuntieEm on 02/25/2008 8:45 AM

General Authorities Bruce R. McConkie, Spencer W. Kimball and Joseph Fielding Smith have stated that once someone is within a kingdom of glory, that person remains within that kingdom for all eternity; no one can advance out of a kingdom. Many general authorities do speculate that there is advancement within kingdoms, though.

Very true. This is another one of those "open questions" that are unsettled, and which both sides can produce statements from authorities in support of their position.

missPolitickUser is Offline

Posts:644


02/25/2008 4:09 PM Alert 
Posted By DIRTY BIRDIE on 02/25/2008 10:37 AM
Posted By RichTig on 02/25/2008 9:55 AM

Posted By love@hm on 02/24/2008 1:35 PM
Richtig -

It's your lucky day! Women may serve an 18 month mission at the age of 21.

 

 

Then I am getting ripped off.  I only get guys at my house.

 

Yeah..Bring on the Chicks !!

 

 

 

 

Those chicks are squares. Not your type. Although.....they probably are a bit lonely.


Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage
RichTigUser is Offline

Posts:0

02/25/2008 5:15 PM Alert 

For 10% of your income, she'll save your eternal soul and make you hollar.

EEEUser is Offline

Posts:374


02/25/2008 6:32 PM Alert 
Posted By moinmoin on 02/25/2008 3:12 PM

Nothing wrong with rebuttals! Just call them "follow-up questions!"  And seriously, please ask any follow-up questions. It would be a pretty boring message board or thread without them.

 

Thanks for answering those questions moinmon.   I have a much clearer understanding now.

I appreciate you giving me your blessings to respond, however my only reply would have been in regards to those scripture you misinterpreted, but we've already discussed those a few weeks ago in the Are Westboro Baptists Christian?  thread.   LOL, I can always copy and paste my past response if you really want them. (That’s the worse wink emoticon I have ever seen!)


Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/
BionicbunnyUser is Offline

Posts:594


02/26/2008 7:30 PM Alert 
Posted By moinmoin on 02/25/2008 2:54 PM

Posted By Bionicbunny on 02/24/2008 7:08 PM
Other experienced and believing Mormons' view is that we can, indeed, become gods in the exact same sense that God and his wife/wives are God.

 ************************************

God has a wife/wives?   Who are his wives? 
love@hmUser is Offline

Posts:486

02/26/2008 8:49 PM Alert 
Bionicbunny,

We do believe there is a Heavenly Mother. It is possible there are more than one (this would fit within the doctrine). We believe we do not hear much about Her because God wants to protect Her from the persecution which comes with being God. She is a very special woman! We have very little more than the knowledge that a Heavenly Mother exists. We do NOT pray to Her or otherwise. We do NOT believe She is the virgin Mary.
BionicbunnyUser is Offline

Posts:594


02/26/2008 11:12 PM Alert 
love@hm,
Is the idea of God wife biblical? I have never heard of this before. Did she/they live on earth or only in heaven with God? If God has a wife or wives do you also believe there are other Gods?
love@hmUser is Offline

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02/27/2008 8:16 AM Alert 
Bionicbunny,

The idea of a Heavenly Mother (or a wife of God) is as far as I know, singular to the LDS faith. It is not found in the scriptures. It IS found in The Family - A Proclamation to the World. Is says, "All Human Beings - male and female- are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents , and as such, each has a divine nature and destiny."

Before the Proclamation, we knew this. The Lyrics to the song O My Father, which I posted earlier, also eludes to this idea. Well, it doesn't elude to it - it states it! This song is included in our Hymnbook, music is kind of my thing - so what I know, is these hymns are hand-picked and they MUST fit within the gospels doctrine. IF the preface of having a heavenly mother was incorrect, this hymn would not have been included. The hymnbook gets approved by the 1st presidency. . . The current hymnbook came out in the 80's. The hymnbook previous to that was compiled by Emma Smith (Joseph Smith's wife).

I do not have or no whether or not she lived on an earth or only in heaven, BUT I very much assume and would believe she also would have a BODY. A body is gained by an earthly existence.

The question of belief in other gods has been discussed very thoroughly and well, by moinmoin in other threads and such. The answer is we believe there are gods. We do NOT worship them, we will NEVER worship them, and we do not give them another thought. We worship our Father, whom we will always worship.

If you will scroll up, moinmoin posted a quote by Orson Pratt, which touches on this idea - it is a good quote and will explain much better than I ever could - How we believe there is more than one god, but that there is only ONE god
love@hmUser is Offline

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02/27/2008 8:30 AM Alert 
I didn't explain the Proclamation. . .

The Family - A Proclamation to the World is not at the time part of our 'scriptures' HOWEVER, it IS the word of GOD. It is scripture in the sense that we know it came from God through the 1st presidency of the church - or the prophet. It can be and is quoted as scripture.

My suspicion is it will eventually be added to the 'scripture' books.
moinmoinUser is Offline

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02/27/2008 9:43 PM Alert 
bionicbunny wrote: 02/26/2008 11:12 PM

Is the idea of God having a wife biblical? I have never heard of this before.


It’s important to understand that, while Mormons recognize the existence of a heavenly mother as well as a heavenly father (God), our knowledge about her ends there. We don’t have any other information about her at this time. The importance of the family relationship and organization here on earth is modeled after pre-earth and eternal realities; we are literally God’s children (or, as Paul puts it, “we are the offspring of God,” Acts 17:29), and our experience as mothers and fathers and members of families on earth is an extension of our pre-mortal existence and prepares us for our growth and progress after this life.

It is interesting to note that both Canaanites and Hebrews believed that the goddess Asherah was first El and then Yahweh’s (Jehovah’s) wife. The Bible condemns Asherah worship, but our current Bible reflects the particularly strict views of the deuteronomic reforms during the reign of King Josiah. Much of the records were redacted or edited to purge them of what the reformers deemed to be idolatrous or unacceptable from their predecessors. In the early Hebrew religion, El had a son named Yahweh, but gradually, Yahweh worship incorporated El worship. By the time of King Solomon, Yahweh came to be identified with El. (See Mark S. Smith, “The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel [San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1990] Margaret Barker, “The Great Angel: A Study of Israel’s Second God [Louisville: Westminster/John Knox Press, 1992] Otto Eissfeldt, “El and Yahweh,” Journal of Semitic Studies 1 󞩔]: 25–37).

Asherah worship was widespread among the Israelites during certain times, and while many will be quick to point out that her worship is condemned by the Bible, there are some interesting issues with this. Dr. Daniel Peterson points out some interesting things in this article:

http://www.farmsresearch.com/display.php?table=jbms&id=223

“So what are we to make of Asherah? Does the opposition to her veneration expressed and enforced by the Deuteronomists and the reforming Israelite kings indicate that she was a foreign pollution of legitimate Hebrew religion coming from abroad? It does not look that way. Recall that Hezekiah removed both the asherah and the Nehushtan from the temple at Jerusalem. The Nehushtan was not a pagan intrusion, but was “the brasen serpent that Moses had made,” which had been carefully preserved by the Israelites for nearly a millennium until Hezekiah, offended by the idolatrous worship of "the children of Israel [who] did burn incense to it" (2 Kings 18:4), removed it and destroyed it. In other words, the Nehushtan had an illustrious pedigree entirely within the religious world of Israel, and there is no reason to believe that the asherah was any different in this respect.

What is striking in the long story of Israel's Asherah is the identity of those who did not oppose her. No prophet appears to have denounced Asherah before the eighth century BC The great Yahwist prophets Amos and Hosea, vociferous in their denunciations of Baal, seem not to have denounced Asherah. The Elijah-Elisha school of Yahwist reformers do not appear to have opposed her. Although 400 prophets of Asherah ate with Jezebel along with the 450 prophets of Baal, Elijah's famous contest with the priests of Baal, while dramatically fatal to them, left the votaries of Asherah unmentioned and, evidently, untouched. . . . In subsequent years the ruthless campaign against Baal inspired by Elijah and Elisha and led by Israel's Jehu left the asherah of Samaria standing. Baal was wholly eliminated, while the veneration of the goddess actually outlived the northern kingdom.”

His example from the Bible of the Nehushtan, or the brazen serpent lifted up by Moses is interesting, because it illustrates how a legitimate religious item can become idolatrous. In other words, perhaps the Asherah worship condemned in the Bible is a degenerated idolatrous expression of an originally legitimate teaching about the wife of God (El or Yahweh). Especially interesting to us is the fact that Asherah is also the source for our word “Easter” (variations of Asherah are Ashteroth or Astarte). If you look up the etymology [word origins] of Easter in a good dictionary, it derives from fertility goddess worship; hence the eggs, rabbits, chicks, etc. Christian celebration of the Resurrection was superimposed over pagan festivals. This is no concern to most of us Christians (other than Jehovah’s Witnesses and others, who point out the pagan origins of Easter, Christmas, Halloween, etc.), but what would religious history students in 3,000 years make of this blending of Christianity with paganism? Especially if they only have the records of Jehovah’s Witnesses of our time to go on? In other words, it matters a great deal what the source of information is and what sources are excluded when looking back and trying to determine what people believed.

What Israelites believed and taught about God is a lot more complicated than what 21st century protestant evangelism superimposes on them.
BionicbunnyUser is Offline

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02/28/2008 11:50 AM Alert 

Posted By moinmoin on 02/27/2008 9:43 PM

bionicbunny wrote: 02/26/2008 11:12 PM

Is the idea of God having a wife biblical? I have never heard of this before.


 we are literally God’s children (or, as Paul puts it, “we are the offspring of God,” Acts 17:29),

 When Paul said that he was quoting from a poem. 

Adam and Eve were created in His image, man from the dirt on the ground and woman from the man, they weren't his offspring, they were his creation.  Does that make us any less meaningful than we are?  No.  He created us and He loves us. 


BionicbunnyUser is Offline

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02/28/2008 12:10 PM Alert 
As far as the Asherah pole, that was what they were worshiping for fertility for whatever reason. (They seemed to worship a lot of things.) I don't see how that means that there was really an Asherah and she was Gods wife.
love@hmUser is Offline

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02/28/2008 1:15 PM Alert 
Bionicbunny,

The LDS faith teaches our bodies and spirits were created in God's image. The body from dirt, and woman from Adam's rib. Our spirits are literal children of God.

I have found this to be somewhat disturbing to MS Christians. Although, for me it is hard to understand the thought and belief of being a creation and not literal spirit children, so I don't fault anyone for having a hard time with this.

As for Asherah, please don't be confused. It is not that we believe she IS God's wife. We have no doctrine on who God's wife would be (although as I previously stated we do not believe it is the Virgin Mary), our doctrine is only that She exists - past that we have no revelation given. To be honest, until moinmoin's post, I had never heard of Asherah. (perhaps an indicationI should do more reading )
RichTigUser is Offline

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02/28/2008 1:21 PM Alert 

Wouldn't Mormons believe that God has several wives? 

POLYGAMY RULES!

 

BionicbunnyUser is Offline

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02/28/2008 2:47 PM Alert 
Posted By love@hm on 02/28/2008 1:15 PM
Bionicbunny,

As for Asherah, please don't be confused. It is not that we believe she IS God's wife. We have no doctrine on who God's wife would be (although as I previously stated we do not believe it is the Virgin Mary), our doctrine is only that She exists - past that we have no revelation given. To be honest, until moinmoin's post, I had never heard of Asherah. (perhaps an indicationI should do more reading )


Aaahhh, I think I got it now.  You don't believe that Asherah definately IS Gods wife, though you figure that she is because of other information that you have, right?

Yes, I think we could all do more reading! LOL!

I just love these threads!  I have done more fact checking and reading of the bible during these "discussions", it's fabulous! 

love@hmUser is Offline

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02/28/2008 3:11 PM Alert 
It's more a long the lines of we believe God has a wife - IF members figure Asherah is God's wife, that is their own opinion, which they would be entitled to, as long as they do not pray to or worship her - because we have been counseled NOT to pray to Heavenly Mother - however there is NO doctrine on WHO Asherah is - so if someone theorizes on who it is - that is THEIR belief - not everyones. I personally will not give Heavenly Mother a name because it has not be revealed. I don't want to have theories on who She is - it is enough for me to just know She exists.

I think the point of moinmoin's post was just to show how it is possible that the pagan belief in Asherah could have stemmed from a REAL teaching and belief in and of a Heavenly Mother. Not necessarily that the pagan belief WAS the belief in Heavenly Mother, but that Heavenly Mother may have been the beginning of that belief. . . similar to the way we celebrate Halloween, what was once a pagan holiday is NOW simply a reason to collect candy. . . they relate, but they are NOT the same.
moinmoinUser is Offline

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02/28/2008 10:19 PM Alert 

Posted By Bionicbunny on 02/26/2008 11:12 PM

When Paul said that [we are God’s offspring], he was quoting from a poem.


True. A poem, or from one of the philosophers. This gets into the anthropomorphism of God (whether He has a body or not).

Why did Paul quote from the local people’s literary tradition on Mars Hill? To point out that as God’s offspring, we have a child-parent relationship with Him; “we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device” (Acts 17:29). In English, “God’s offspring” is a pretty direct expression; the more modern German Bible reads “Wir sind von seiner Art” (we are of His kind), while the 1890 Luther Bible reads “Wir sind seines Geschlechtes” (we are of His race). If one says that this was just using figurative language, and should not be taken literally, to what purpose was the figurative language intended then?

The plain anthropomorphism of the Bible (“for God spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh with his friend&rdquo has been completely rejected by the creeds of Christianity, influenced at their source by neo-Platonic philosophy (three hundred years after Christ) that held that spirit = good and physical/flesh = bad. God and heaven have to be spirit and have nothing physical about them, etc. Even though the resurrected Christ ate fish and honeycomb and told His disciples “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have,” non-Mormon Christians insist that God is a spirit because of the influence of neo-Platonism. Paul used the quote from the people’s literary heritage to teach the people at Mars Hill about the true nature of God.

I’ve brought this up before, but Moses prophesied to Israel that “the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.” (Deuteronomy 4:27-28). Continuing, Moses promises Israel that if they seek the Lord with all their heart and soul, they will find Him, ”even in the latter days” (verse 30). Mormonism claims to be the fulfillment of this, offering to the world “in the latter days” the true nature of God and of our literal parent-child relationship with Him.

Adam and Eve were created in His image, man from the dirt on the ground and woman from the man, they weren't his offspring, they were his creation. Does that make us any less meaningful than we are? No. He created us and He loves us.


That’s an interesting phrase, “created in His image.” If He doesn’t have “body, parts, or passions,” as the creeds tell us, what meaning does this have? Doesn’t the phrase indicate on its face that we look like Him, if we are created in or after His image? Like a few chapters later, where we’re told that Adam “begat a son in his own likeness, after his image” (Seth)?

“Offspring” has to do with being His spirit children; He is the father of our spirits, our earthly mothers and fathers are the parents of our mortal bodies.

As far as the Asherah pole, that was what they were worshiping for fertility for whatever reason. (They seemed to worship a lot of things.) I don't see how that means that there was really an Asherah and she was Gods wife . . . Aaahhh, I think I got it now. You don't believe that Asherah definitely IS Gods wife, though you figure that she is because of other information that you have, right?


I need to clarify this.

1. Asherah was held anciently by Israelites and Canaanites to be God’s wife (whether El or Yahweh/Jehovah).

2. At some point, Asherah worship/veneration degenerated into idolatry and was condemned by certain prophets.

3. As love@hm indicated, Mormons do not derive their beliefs in a mother in heaven from the above. Almost all Mormons will give you a blank stare if you ask them about Asherah. I pointed it out merely as part of a discussion about what the Bible may indicate about a mother in heaven. Just as the nahushtan (an image of the brazen serpent made by Moses) was a legitimate, non-idolatrous artifact from Israel’s history that degenerated into idolatry and had to be condemned and removed from the temple, the fact that Asherah worship was later condemned by the prophets doesn’t necessarily mean that the concept of a wife of God/mother in heaven long held by the Israelites was wrong. That belief had been there since nearly the beginning, and as the article I linked to indicated, there are a number of signs that there was a legitimate, non-idolatrous role for Asherah during non-apostasy times in Israel’s history (e.g., prophets who led anti-Baal reforms seem to have not been concerned with Asherah, etc.).

The Asherah “poles” or “groves” mentioned in the Bible came later than the Asherah figurines, and were symbolic of her. I found it interesting from the article that the Canaanite figurines were sexual in nature, depicting anatomy quite accurately, but the Israelite ones represented her as an unadorned column from the waist down, seemingly in rejection of the uses to which Israel’s neighbors put her. Of course, during Israel’s periods of apostasy, gross wickedness occurred in the “groves” as part of degenerate idolatry, which needed to be forcefully condemned by the prophets and the people.

(from love@hm) I think the point of moinmoin's post was just to show how it is possible that the pagan belief in Asherah could have stemmed from a REAL teaching and belief in and of a Heavenly Mother. Not necessarily that the pagan belief WAS the belief in Heavenly Mother, but that Heavenly Mother may have been the beginning of that belief. . . similar to the way we celebrate Halloween, what was once a pagan holiday is NOW simply a reason to collect candy. . . they relate, but they are NOT the same.


Thanks for clarifying that for me! We are surrounded by true gospel principles manifesting themselves in fragmented form among heathen peoples. The best example is human sacrifice. While it goes without saying that this has to be one of the most wicked practices in the eyes of God, it occurred all over the world among diverse peoples and reflects the true principle at the heart of Christianity and Judaism: the need for a proxy atonement by the shedding of blood, the giving of a life on behalf of others. The truth of this bedrock principle of Christianity isn’t negated or lessened by the degenerate and warped manifestation that fallen peoples place upon it.

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