Fair
95°F
High: 106°F
Low: 77°F
Currently : Sunny
5 Sep 2008
> Five-day forecast
 Search
   
 
   

Business Directory
Add your Business
Coupons
Add your Coupon
Classifieds
Add Your Classified
Subject: THE BIBLE
Prev Next
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Page 2 of 2 << < 12
AuthorMessages
EEEUser is Offline

Posts:374


02/08/2008 5:20 PM Alert 
Posted By hastings1066 on 02/08/2008 11:42 AM

ST. Augustine argued that God has foreknowledge of human action but does not cause them (free will). St. Thomas wrote that God's omnipotence does not include predetermination.Early Protestant leaders like Calvin felt that free will was a fiction due to the predestination of mans acts by God.

some argue that some acts are morally free (not sins), for instance the acts of the insane and of young children (as in your analogy). So you pay your dime and take your pick.

 

  Actually Palagius was the one who believed "God has foreknowledge of human action but does not cause them (free will)"  not Augustine.  Calvin often quoted Augustine and had the same view on the will of man.  They believe humans have a compatibalistic will which is consistent with what the bible teaches.

 

Here is a portion of what I posted to moinmoin in another thread on examples of compatibalistic will.

 

I believe in a compatibalistic will. There are many examples in the bible of this.

Few examples:

1) Joseph’s brother sending him to slavery.

Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

2) The King of Assyria

(Isaiah 10:5-6)O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

The Lord refers here to the Assyrian king as “the rod of mine anger” in that he is being used as a tool to invoke a judgment against the nation of Israel. He sends them against a godless nation yet notice if you read further in Isaiah 10:12-17 you will see how Jehovah actually punishes the Assyrians for doing what He had caused to happen

3) The Death of the Lord Jesus Christ

God used man to crucify Christ.

“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. (Acts 4:27-28 NASB)

The question that must be addressed is whom in scriptures is sovereign; God or man? If man is truly free, then how can Jehovah truly decree anything and be certain it will come to pass? Is Jehovah at the mercy of the will of man? If man’s free-will decision ultimately decides the outcome of an event or a fate, then would it not be logical to say that man’s will is sovereign over Jehovah’s?

 



Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/
moinmoinUser is Offline

Posts:394


02/08/2008 10:46 PM Alert 

missPolitick wrote:

"So here's what I'm caught up on. Why do we have to be tested if God already knows our choices? I feel resentful sometimes that we're supposed to strive for perfection, even though He knows we will mess up, and we're made to feel guilty when we mess up even though He expects us to mess up.

I wouldn't put a cookie in front of a 2 yr. old and tell him not to eat it and if he does he will get a spanking, then walk away to see what happens! I know the 2yr. old WILL eat the cookie because he can't help himself. So why make him feel guilty about it when you knew he would do it in the first place?

It's just not nice. I would never treat my child that way."

Moinmoin-please help me put this into perspective.

It all comes back to God's purpose for putting us here. If our purpose in ultimately returning to live with God is to have learned, grown, made progress, and proven ourselves, it all makes a lot of sense. My absolute favorite area on my mission was in the former East-German town of Halberstadt (about 30,000 people). It was after the reunification, but unemployment was still way higher than it ever was during the Great Depression here (it was about 25%). It was like living in a black and white movie in a lot of ways; you'd run into people living in abandoned buildings and eeking out an existence. Multiple generations had also grown up under atheistic Communism as well, and my first couple of weeks, everyone we talked to, right off the bat, would say "If there is a God, then why does _____ happen? ("Ach, wenn es einen Gott gäbe . . .". This was intended to be unanswerable, but we quickly learned to ask first why the world is so awful, why does so much bad stuff happen and exist? People were very happy to discuss this question, and then we asked if they would read a brief quotation from President Kimball we had typed up and comment on it. This was much more effective, because it took away this "unanswerable" question of how there could be so many terrible things and conditions in the world if God exists:

(translated back into English; I don’t actually have the book right now) If all prayers were instantly answered according to our wishes, there would be little or no suffering, no disappointment, no pain, and no death. There would also be no joy, no success, no resurrection, no eternal life . . . "For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things . . . righteousness . . . wickedness . . . holiness . . . misery . . . good . . . bad" (2 Nephi 2:11).

We would like to banish physical pain and emotional suffering from our lives and ensure ourselves an uninterrupted, carefree life; but when we close the door on suffering and agony, we shut out perhaps our best friends and benefactors. Through suffering, a person can become a saint if he learns patience, long-suffering, and self-discipline . . ." ("Faith Precedes the Miracle, p. 97)

Most people agreed with much/all of this, and we explained that this ties into our purpose for being here, may we come in and talk further, etc. We would often ask people if they had children, and if so, if they hovered around them constantly as they learned to walk to make sure they never fell down or hurt themselves. "Of course not!" Why not — you knew that would happen; wouldn’t you want to preserve and protect your child from things that will hurt her that you know for a fact will happen if you don’t intervene? "Well, she’d never learn to walk that way!"

I can see a lot of value in God, even with full foreknowledge of our choices and their consequences, letting us make these choices anyway. We would never learn to walk without suffering the good and bad consequences of our good and bad choices. The test is for us, not God.

Does that help?

RichTigUser is Offline

Posts:0

02/09/2008 9:33 AM Alert 
Posted By moinmoin on 02/08/2008 10:46 PM

It all comes back to God's purpose for putting us here. If our purpose in ultimately returning to live with God is to have learned, grown, made progress, and proven ourselves, it all makes a lot of sense.

 

 

 

 

So, the people killed in the tornados had learned, grown, made progress and proven themselves and they were called back to heaven?

moinmoinUser is Offline

Posts:394


02/09/2008 10:15 AM Alert 
Who says life is cut-and-dried and works out neatly? Untimely death and tragedy is one of the trials of this life, and it's a hard one to deal with. Victims of tragedies do carry a lot of valuable experience from their mortal probation, even if they seemingly have missed out on much of life, and Mormons, at least, believe that people can be taught and accept (or reject) the gospel after this life as well while waiting for resurrection and judgment. This life is but a small segment in the continuum of our eternal existence (pre-mortal and post mortal and beyond). There is a lot more to our eternal past than we have any idea of, and there will be much more development beyond this life than we can imagine. Having this perspective makes coping with tragedy and untimely demise, I don't know that I would say easier, but better. We mortals who remain to pick up the pieces still miss people terribly, but we have hope and faith that we'll be reunited again, and that this blip of time on earth isn't all there is.

Your online handle isn't a play on the German word "richtig" (correct), is it? If so, I recommend that you change it to "nicht richtig" (incorrect).

(Just kidding).
RichTigUser is Offline

Posts:0

02/09/2008 10:24 AM Alert 

HA HA

You are  the 1st person to recognize that.  And yes it was an intentional play on the german word and my name.

 

 

 

EEEUser is Offline

Posts:374


02/09/2008 10:45 AM Alert 
Posted By RichTig on 02/09/2008 9:33 AM

  

So, the people killed in the tornados had learned, grown, made progress and proven themselves and they were called back to heaven?


I always feel the best way to know why God does things is using his Bible which  he gave to communicate to us.

I could give my opinions but it's always better to hear from God himself, here is a Biblical example of why God allow tradegies:

 

Luk 13:2  And he(Jesus) answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way?
Luk 13:3  No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4  Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5  No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

God uses tradegies to draw people to him, so that he will be glorified.  It is a reminder to repent of our sins or we will perish and be seperated from God for eternity.

Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/
RichTigUser is Offline

Posts:0

02/09/2008 10:49 AM Alert 

I'll repent as the roof gets pulled off the house and not a minute sooner.

Just in case.

love@hmUser is Offline

Posts:476

02/10/2008 2:54 PM Alert 
LOL!
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 2 of 2 << < 12




ActiveForums 3.6