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| | Author | Messages | |
moinmoin
Posts:394
 | | 01/03/2008 11:06 AM |
 Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 01/03/2008 9:47 AM
Why do you need the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price?
They are necessary to restore the fulness of the gospel.
I thought that the Bible was the complete word of God.
That seems to be a prominent view among many Christians, doesn't it? 
Do Mormons believe He forgot something or that He needed to modernize His word?
No, of course we don't believe He "forgot" something. As I pointed out above, the multiplicity of vastly different approaches, beliefs, practices, emphases, etc. within Christianity should be enough to convince one that the Bible on its own is not sufficiently clear enough to present a unified, monolithic view of "original Christianity." See the above examples of important differences I listed (many more can be added). Latter-day scriptures represent the additional nails in my analogy, nails which clarify and confirm how the Bible should be interpreted. Without these extra "nails," we have the limitless different interpretations of the same Bible that we see in Christianity. I don't have my Bible in front of me at the moment, but I think Ephesians 4 is where Paul writes that apostles, prophets, and other offices are necessary "until we have a unity of the faith" and to ensure that we aren't "tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine." Taking Mormonism off of the table for the sake of argument, do we have a unity of the faith? Do we have prophets and apostles? Are we faced with "every wind of doctrine?" How do we determine what is right? We can't say, "Turn to the Bible," because lots of other people with completely different views use interpret that same Bible very differently.
We were warned in the Bible about false prophets, how do you know for sure that these "modern" prophets are true and not just sent to mislead a great number of people?
A very important question, and one that takes us to Mormonism's great strength. Doesn't the foretold existence of false prophets necessarily imply that there will be true ones? Counterfeits are only effective in comparison to the genuine article. Mormonism teaches, as a central tenet, that we all can ask God directly about vital questions like this, and He will give us answers that are unmistakable, if we ask sincerely and believe that He will give us an answer. We exhort and plead with people to ponder our message and to ask God if it's true or not, not just to take our word for it. Did Joseph Smith really have records on metallic plates, and did God give him the power to translate them? Does He guide and direct His Church today through prophets and apostles? Etc., etc. These are things that we can ask God in prayer and receive answers from Him about, if we sincerely want to know the answers and are open to God's answers whatever those answers are.
Is it possible that Joseph Smith was one of the foretold false prophets? Yes. But wouldn't you like to know for sure that you are not rejecting a true prophet of God, just like countless people throughout the ages who were equally convinced and sure that Elijah, Jeremiah, Moses, Isaiah, and Jesus Christ were imposters or deluded fanatics?
I've already settled this question for myself in my own heart and mind.
---mm | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:476
| | 01/03/2008 11:25 AM |
Alert | Well, my post was lost again. I really hate it when that happens, but in this case, maybe it was better.
Bunny, I’m sorry I used the word “slamming” I felt like I was sticking to a topic, trying to understand and get answers and then the topic was completely changed. My questions relating to angels were so I could better understand your belief on the creation. I wanted to be able to see where our belief is different. I felt I needed better insight in this area to understand.
As I have said, I was able to gain information from a different board and feel more like I understand now – although if you wanted to answer the questions I would still love it, as I know what I was told on the other board were answers from a Methodist Minister’s wife, a Lutheran Minister and a non-denominational member, and different sects have different beliefs.
I have felt like you were trying to change to subject because we are discussing a belief, not where the belief comes from. I know in your 1st post you pointed out the sources were not from the Bible, and I didn’t have a problem with that, because it was just sources, but the original post was about a belief, not about whether or not the scripture is ‘true’. I have been trying to understand and learn what others believe. I did not want to argue. I offered our belief simply to make it easier for you to relate your explanation. I feel like the original discussion should be no different than discussing the belief of creation with a Buddhist, the sources shouldn’t matter, because I don’t expect you to change your belief, and you don’t expect me to either, kwim?
We do not believe that God forgot anything or that He needed to modernize anything. We believe the Book of Mormon to be another Testament of Christ. We believe in modern-day revelation, and in living prophets.
The Book of Mormon and the Bible both warn of false prophets. How do I know these men are prophets of God? Through study, meditation, prayer, and personal revelation. I know they are prophets because I have received that answer. I have had many personal experiences which have testified to this fact. I expect I will have many more. I have peace, I have warmth, I know. When I consider differently I lose that peace and warmth – the spirit. I cannot deny this is the true gospel any more than you can deny what you believe.
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:521
| | 01/03/2008 12:13 PM |
Alert | Moinmoin, Thank you for breaking down my questions and answering them so clearly! I have more now :-)
So you know that Joseph Smith wasn't a false prophet because you have prayed and meditated about it and God has let you know. Why couldn't you read the Word in the Bible and pray to God for wisdom and understanding of the Word? Why do you think that God would send another prophet to do the explaining when you could go directly to to source for enlightenment? Do you not believe that the Bible is the complete Word of God? | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:394
| | 01/03/2008 9:34 PM |
Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 01/03/2008 12:13 PM
So you know that Joseph Smith wasn't a false prophet because you have prayed and meditated about it and God has let you know. Why couldn't you read the Word in the Bible and pray to God for wisdom and understanding of the Word?
Although raised a Mormon, the thought that we might be wrong or deluded absolutely terrified me when I was a teenager, and spurred me to embark on my own personal search. Although I considered the possibility that much/some of what I had been taught and believed as a Mormon was wrong, using the Bible alone was not terribly helpful in looking at alternatives. Look at the vast difference in interpretations and conclusions that other people have already reached over the centuries by reading and praying about the Bible. How would I know what flavor of non-Mormon Christianity is right, based solely on the Bible? How would I know that I wasn’t again deceived with a new interpretation? As it happens, Joseph Smith didn’t set out to found a church, either; he wanted to know which church was really right. As a fourteen year-old youth in the midst of a surge in local religious excitement among the Methodists, Baptist, and Presbyterians, he relates the following (from his history recorded in the Pearl of Great Price):
”In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it? While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.
As he prayed in the woods near his home in 1820, the Father and the Son appeared to him and instructed him not to join any of the churches then available:
”My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." He (Jesus) again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time.”
Over the next decade, Joseph was called as a prophet and apostle, shown where the Book of Mormon plates where buried, and given means by which to translate the record. I think one of the Book of Mormon's most important functions is that it is a tangible, physical evidence of Joseph Smith’s call as a prophet. It’s not only still around, but it’s the chief means of converting people to Christ’s restored church. The last prophet in the Book of Mormon, Moroni, the son of Mormon, includes a promise to all who sincerely read the Book of Mormon and ask God to reveal whether it’s true or not:
“And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you. Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.” (Moroni 10:3-5)
Mormons, both members and those serving as missionaries, encourage people to apply “Moroni’s test” and to ask God, the source of revelation, to confirm whether these things are true or not.
Why do you think that God would send another prophet to do the explaining when you could go directly to the source for enlightenment?
This is a crucial question, and it subconsciously reveals a crucial contribution of Mormonism. Most Christians, as is evident in your question, view the Bible as the source. In contrast, Mormonism views God as the source. In other words, rather than believing in the Bible, Mormons believe in what the Bible is based on and where the Bible comes from: revelation from God. Continuing revelation, even in our day. Far from leading Mormons to reject the Bible, Mormons believe and accept the Bible, but are also open to revelation to other peoples outside of the Bible or revelation in this day and age, if God gives it to us.
The Bible contains quite a bit of support for Mormonism’s claims that God would send “other prophets” to restore things after the first century A.D. In the last two verses of the Old Testament, the Lord tells us
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Mormons proclaim the direct fulfillment of this in Kirtland, Ohio in 1836, when Elijah came as a resurrected being and restored the authority and keys to seal and bind generations in heaven and earth. I am unaware of any other Christian church that looks for any kind of literal fulfillment of this, although Jews traditionally leave an extra place setting at Passover and the front door open in recognition of this tradition.
Peter proclaimed to a crowd in Jerusalem that Jesus would be retained in heaven “until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:20-21). Paul taught the Thessalonians that the 2nd Coming would not happen “except there come a falling away first” (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3). And, John “saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people” (Revelation 14:6). This last one is particularly interesting, because non-Mormon Christians see “the everlasting gospel” as already being fully contained in the Bible; and restoration of authority, ordinances, scripture, and teaching through angels is a prominent feature of Mormonism’s message and claims. Bringing up these and others like them doesn’t convince anyone who’s not open to it, but I find that non-Mormon Christians are baffled by trying to explain them.
Do you not believe that the Bible is the complete Word of God?
No, but we don’t believe that the Book of Mormon and other latter-day scripture are the “complete” Word of God, either. One of the “Articles of Faith” of the Church states that “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.” In other words, we believe that there is yet more to come, according to God’s will and timetable.
Where did this notion of a complete, closed canon of infallible, inerrant scripture come from, anyway? It seems to me that the apparent security of such a belief might be attractive to many, and manifests itself as an infallible Bible, infallible pope, etc. Having something infallible, end of story, absolves people of having to face the sometimes terrifying question of “How do you know — really know?” Having to discern between true and false prophets is relegated safely to the distant past. Today’s Bible inerrantists have safely shielded themselves from any Abrahamic tests that will require them to know through the Holy Ghost independent of scripture. And some non-Mormon Christians are beginning to see the penchant for infallibility as a weakness and a drawback in their faith. From “Christianity Today” about a month ago: “How Evangelicals Became Over-Committed to the Bible and What Can Be Done About It: Fighting ‘Bible-olatry’ at the Evangelical Theological Society:”
http://tinyurl.com/2g775k | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:521
| | 01/03/2008 11:55 PM |
Alert | In talking about Joseph Smith, you wrote "As he prayed in the woods near his home in 1820, the Father and the Son appeared to him and instructed him not to join any of the churches then available"
Exodus 33:20 says "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live"
How did Joseph Smith survive after seeing the Lord?
You said: "Having something infallible, end of story, absolves people of having to face the sometimes terrifying question of “How do you know — really know?”
But isn't that what the 3 books are that you have? They explain everything, lay it all out and answer any question you might have when you ask yourself "how do you really know?" 3 separate books, by 3? separate authors, at least one of which is said to be a prophet. Talk about reassurance if you are looking for it. Having something infallible, end of story leaves it more up to faith. Your reassurance comes from your own personal relationship, not someone else giving it to you.
You said: "some non-Mormon Christians are beginning to see the penchant for infallibility as a weakness and a drawback in their faith"
Is this true? It's sad if it is. Maybe it is the latest popular belief, who knows. I do know one thing though, you can't always believe what you read, many times things like that are written with an agenda. And no matter what the fad is, there will always be lemmings. | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:521
| | 01/04/2008 12:05 AM |
Alert | | One question: Why do you think Elijah was resurected in Kirtland, OH? Did he literally bring keys? I don't know that story. Was there any proof left behind? | | | |
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|  | moinmoin
Posts:394
| | 01/04/2008 10:27 AM |
Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 01/03/2008 11:55 PM
Exodus 33:20 says "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live"
How did Joseph Smith survive after seeing the Lord?
Well, how did Moses survive after seeing the Lord? Nine verses before the one you quoted, it states:
“And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend”
The fact is that the Bible records instances of God appearing to men (Jacob, Genesis 32:30, for instance). The apparent contradiction in Exodus 33 is resolved through Joseph Smith’s inspired revision of the Bible for verse 20, which reads:
“And he said unto Moses, Thou canst not see my face at this time, lest mine anger be kindled against thee also, and I destroy thee, and thy people; for there shall no man among them see me at this time, and live, for they are exceeding sinful. And no sinful man hath at any time, neither shall there be any sinful man at any time, that shall see my face and live.”
Joseph Smith was killed before he could complete his revision of the Bible, so Mormons in English speaking countries use the King James Version as the Bible; what we have of Joseph’s revision is referred to and used as a help. Many confusing passages are cleared up through it.
But isn't that what the 3 books are that you have? They explain everything, lay it all out and answer any question you might have when you ask yourself "how do you really know?" 3 separate books, by 3? separate authors, at least one of which is said to be a prophet.
The Book of Mormon, like the Bible, contains books by different prophets (Alma, Nephi, Helaman, Ether, Enos, Jacob, Mormon, Moroni, etc.) and was translated by Joseph Smith through the gift and power of God. The Doctrine and Covenants contains revelations from Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith (Joseph Smith’s nephew), and Spencer W. Kimball. The Pearl of Great Price contains various revelations through Joseph Smith. Although it may seem hard to believe, given what Mormons claim (angels, personal appearances from Jesus, etc.), we don’t regard our scriptures as infallible or complete. Sections have been added to the Doctrine and Covenants through the years, and will probably receive more, as circumstances warrant.
Is this true? It's sad if it is. Maybe it is the latest popular belief, who knows. I do know one thing though, you can't always believe what you read, many times things like that are written with an agenda. And no matter what the fad is, there will always be lemmings.
I agree; the liberal trend in Christianity towards denying and divesting everything miraculous is tragic. I don’t think this is a majority movement, but it’s there and affects many churches to some extent. If you read the article and the comments that follow, though, this did not involve this type of people; it wasn’t an attack against Bible inerrancy per se. It was just asking the central question of whether inerrantists have painted themselves into a corner by subscribing to ideas that don’t square with reality, and would never have resulted in a Bible had adherents held to them back then.
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| | moinmoin
Posts:394
| | 01/04/2008 10:29 AM |
Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 01/04/2008 12:05 AM
One question: Why do you think Elijah was resurected in Kirtland, OH? Did he literally bring keys? I don't know that story. Was there any proof left behind?
You mean other than Elijah’s ring of keys?  I should have clarified that the term “keys” is a figurative one, similar to Jesus’ use of it in Matthew 16:19, in giving Peter “the keys of the kingdom.” “Keys” refers to specific authority to act on behalf of and for Jesus Christ, and is given by the laying on of hands by those who hold this authority. Just like physical keys can give or prevent access, priesthood “keys” are used to administer the ordinances of the gospel and to govern the church.
The account of Elijah’s appearance in Kirtland, Ohio is found in Doctrine and Covenants 110:
Visions given to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the temple at Kirtland, Ohio, April 3, 1836. History of the Church 2:435-36.
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.
Interestingly, it was Moses and Elijah who appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17). They, and a prophet named Elias from the time of Abraham of which we know very little, transferred the keys of the gathering of Israel, the gospel of Abraham, and sealing authority to bind parents to children throughout the ages. This is the basis for the Mormon doctrine of temple sealing for time and eternity.
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:521
| | 01/04/2008 11:51 AM |
Alert | “And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend”
The Lord was in a cloud. The very verse before the one you quoted said that He was in a cloud, the people saw the cloud. So face to face sort of, God communicated with Moses directly, without visually showing his face.
You said that you don't see your scriptures as infallable. But don't you believe that if they were inspired through God they would be? Why would God inspire anything less? Do you believe that God is infallible?
I am puzzled still about Kirtland, OH. Why there? | | | |
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| | qwerty
Posts:135
| | 01/04/2008 3:36 PM |
Alert | “And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend”
The Lord was in a cloud. The very verse before the one you quoted said that He was in a cloud, the people saw the cloud. So face to face sort of, God communicated with Moses directly, without visually showing his face.
I think this is one good example of how a passage of scripture can be interpreted many different ways. To me, "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend" means that God and Moses were talking "as friends". I think it's interesting that the Bible uses the words "friends". To me that illustrates a much more intimate conversation that would be literally face to face as opposed to God "hiding" in a cloud as they spoke. The people were not able to see God, but I believe that Moses was able to see him "face to face". Just my humble interpretation. | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:521
| | 01/04/2008 4:06 PM |
Alert | qwerty and moinmoin, do you believe that God inspired the scriptures (in the Bible and the 3 books mentioned above)?
If you do, then do you believe that God would inspire any word that was not infallible?
Do you believe that God is infallible? | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:394
| | 01/05/2008 12:57 AM |
Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 01/04/2008 11:51 AM
“And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend”
The Lord was in a cloud. The very verse before the one you quoted said that He was in a cloud, the people saw the cloud. So face to face sort of, God communicated with Moses directly, without visually showing his face.
Well, the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night were what the people saw, but how does a man speak unto his friend? Remember, Moses was alone up in the mount, while the people below could only see the cloud. In chapter 33, the tabernacle was "pitched . . . without the camp, afar off from the camp" (verse 7). Verse 8 tells us that "when Moses went out unto the tabernacle, that all the people rose up, and stood every man at his tent door, and looked after Moses, until he was gone into the tabernacle." Verses 9 and 10 tell us that when "Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses. And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door . . ." It seems clear from this that Moses didn't talk to God in a cloud; it was what the people saw as this took place.
As qwerty pointed out, this particular phrase seems to seek to emphasize face-to-face contact. I have in front of me my "Einheitsübersetzung" (Unity translation; the German Catholic Bible) and my 1890 Luther Bible (I served as a missionary in northern Germany). They read, respectively, for this verse:
Der Herr und Mose redeten miteinander Auge in Auge, wie Menschen miteinander reden. (The Lord and Moses spoke with each other eye to eye, as men speak to each other.)
Der Herr aber redete mit Mose von Angesicht zu Angesicht, wie ein Mann min seinem Freunde redet. (But the Lord spoke with Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend).
I'm certain that most Bible translations carry this same "face-to-face" meaning, and any that don't have to have an agenda behind them. That would be quite a shift in meaning, wouldn't it?
You said that you don't see your scriptures as infallable. But don't you believe that if they were inspired through God they would be? Why would God inspire anything less? Do you believe that God is infallible?
Very good questions. I'll try to post a more complete answer worthy of them at a later time. For now, at nearly 1:00 A.M., God is perfect and infallible, but the people and media through which He gives us scripture are not. And that's OK; because even a fallible Bible or Book of Mormon still enable those who are open to feel the Holy Spirit. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27). Absolute etched-in-stone perfection isn't necessary for one to receive a witness through the Spirit. Is it?
I am puzzled still about Kirtland, OH. Why there?
When the restored church was organized in New York in 1830, it quickly had to flee because of intense persecution. A mass conversion of a large number of Cambellites in northern Ohio to Mormonism caused the church's membership to swell in that area, leading to Kirtland becoming the headquarters of the church for a time. There, Joseph Smith was commanded to build a temple after the manner shown him by God, and this was done at great sacrifice. Later, cornerstones were laid in Independence and Far West, Missouri, and the Nauvoo, Illinois temple was built. After being driven west, the Salt Lake temple was built, and there are now over 130 temples worldwide. I don't know that Kirtland itself had any special significance per se, other than the Lord commanded a temple to be built there and prophesy was fulfilled there through the visits of Elijah and other resurrected prophets. | | | |
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