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| | Author | Messages | |
RichTig
Posts:0
 | | 01/01/2008 11:20 AM |
 Alert | A Tale of Two Sons
On Saturday December 15, Mormon curmudgeon/editorialist, Robert Kirby addressed the issue more honestly than the Church PR department and with a sense of humor: "The question was perceived by some as an opportunity to hold an element of Mormon theology up for ridicule" Kirby writes. "As a Mormon, I wasn't bothered because, well, it's true. It gets weirder. Not only is Satan our brother as well, he looks exactly like KSL meteorologist Kevin Eubank, only redder. OK, I made that part up. But Mormons do believe a lot of things that seem pretty strange, if not downright crazy. So do you." (Robert Kirby, "No one is fair when it comes to religion," Salt Lake Tribune [Dec 15, 2007] C1 [http://www.sltrib.com/ci_7725437]. Kirby makes the point that it is easy to speak of another person's religion in a way that makes it sounds bad.)
What happened according to the Mormon story was this. In the pre-existence, God the Father convened a “Grand Council” in which two of his sons, Jesus and Satan, came forward and presented alternative plans for the salvation of humankind. Here is how that event is described in the LDS Church-published manual Gospel Principles:4
Our Father said, "Whom shall I send?" (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, "Here am I, send me" (Abraham 3:27).
Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give his life for us, and take upon himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father's commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, "Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever" (Moses 4:2).
Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, "Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor" (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation … After hearing both sons speak, Heavenly Father said, "I will send the first" (Abraham 3:27).
Satan was not pleased with having his plan rejected. He rebelled, and a third of our spirit brothers and sisters rebelled with him. There was war in heaven:
Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled. There was war in heaven. Satan and his followers fought against Jesus and his followers.
In this great rebellion, Satan and all the spirits who followed him were sent away from the presence of God and cast down from heaven. One-third of the spirits in heaven were punished for following Satan: they were denied the right to receive mortal bodies. (Gospel Principles, 1997 ed., pp. 17-18)
Indeed, then, the answer to Huckabee’s question should have been yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, actually does teach that Jesus and Satan were brothers. In truth then the media statement issued by the LDS Church was both misleading and evasive. | | | |
| | qwerty
Posts:139
| | 01/01/2008 11:48 AM |
Alert | Indeed, then, the answer to Huckabee’s question should have been yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, actually does teach that Jesus and Satan were brothers. In truth then the media statement issued by the LDS Church was both misleading and evasive.
I guess I'm missing the part of where the statement was misleading and evasive. The statement says "because, well, it's true." I'm glad you quoted the Gospel Principles manual because that really does explain the doctrine well as I think it's very misunderstood.
I'm also really confused why individuals take this doctrine to some how insinuate that it's bad or that it demeans God or Christ. If we have siblings that go astray does that make us bad? What if I make the statement..."Osama Bin Laden was created by God." That statement is true as we are all God's creation, but so what. It doesn't demean God or change the mission or divinity of Christ. I really am curious what the big issue is with this doctrine? | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 01/01/2008 2:32 PM |
Alert | Aren't those who ridicule Mormon teachings and beliefs on the relationship between God, Jesus, Satan, and us duty-bound to explain their own churches' beliefs and teachings on this question? Here are some questions I have for them:
1. Who or what is Satan?
2. Did God create Satan?
3. Is God all-knowing?
4. Is God all-powerful?
5. Did God create everything out of absolutely nothing?
6. Are all human beings "children of God?"
7. What does this mean, exactly? Literally "children of God," or figuratively?
8. Are angels "children of God," or some sort of created entities? What exactly are angels?
I think you can see where I'm going with this. Is it any worse for Satan to be Jesus' brother (and ours as well) than it is for him to be a fallen angel? Especially when insisting that God, in His omniscience and omnipotence, created absolutely everything out of absolutely nothing? According to this view, isn't it the height of blasphemy to say that Satan (or anything else) became or did anything that was in any way different from what God intended or foresaw when He created them? Yet, you have Satan rebelling against God (and one-third of the angels, according to many churches' beliefs).
I don't think that people who ridicule Mormon theology on this have given any thought to the implications or ramifications of this ridicule on their own beliefs. As Jesus told the Sadducees in the New Testament, who likewise came with their "hit-and-run" attacks,
Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. (Matthew 22:29).
--- mm | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:594
| | 01/01/2008 5:06 PM |
Alert | RichTig, the quotes that you have in your post may be confusing to some. There is no book of Abraham or book of Moses in the Christian bible. I believe those quotes came from the Mormon's bible, do you know if that is correct? As a Christian, I believe that the bible that God gave us is IT. There is no "follow up", or exceptions, or books that God forgot the first time. The Bible is the COMPLETE word of God.
Moinmoin, here are my answers to your questions according to my beliefs
Satan is a fallen angel
Yes, God created Satan
Yes, God is all knowing
Yes, God is all powerful
Yes, God created everything out of absolutely nothing
We are all children of God
We are called children of God because He created us and we are His
Angels are not human, they are angels. I don't understand exactly what that means right now, maybe someday God will tell me. But they were created by Him and are different than us.
Is it worse for Satan to be Jesus' brother than a fallen angel? It doesn't matter, because the Bible says nothing about them being brothers so the point is moot.
Don't take my post to be ridicule or attacks, I just don't agree with you.
I would like to know though who it was that wrote those books that were quoted in the original post. | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:594
| | 01/01/2008 8:17 PM |
Alert | | The trinity is Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Jesus is God. If you say that Satan and Jesus are brothers you are saying that Satan is God. Moinmoin, qwerty, how do you explain this? | | | |
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| | qwerty
Posts:139
| | 01/01/2008 8:45 PM |
Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 01/01/2008 8:17 PM
The trinity is Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Jesus is God. If you say that Satan and Jesus are brothers you are saying that Satan is God. Moinmoin, qwerty, how do you explain this?
We do not believe in the Trinity so you are comparing apples to oranges (so to speak). We believe God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Ghost are individual and distinct beings. With that in mind, your statement is not correct in that we would therefore believe Satan to be a God. If you read the original post that quoted our Gospel Principles book, it refers to the doctrine of the pre-existence. We believe we are all brothers and sisters (including Christ) and that God the Father is our Father. While Satan was among God's children, he rebelled and was thus cast out of Heaven and became a fallen angel.
I understand that you do not share this belief and that is fine. But to say our beliefs lead to the definition of Satan being a God is simply not true. | | | |
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|  | Bionicbunny
Posts:594
| | 01/01/2008 11:16 PM |
Alert | I asked you for your explaination on the trinity I did not say you believed that Satan is a God. Well, I guess technically those were the words, but they typed out more harsh sounding then I heard them in my head. (sorry) I don't in any way mean to make you defensive. I don't know much about your faith, and probobly not enough about my own either. My intent is not to prove you wrong but to gain wisdom.
Who wrote the Gospel Principals book that was refered to above? Was it Joseph Smith?
Does it superseed the Bible?
When you say it explains preexistance do you mean before the birth of Jesus on this earth or the preexistance of God?
When you say that God is our father do you mean it literally or figuritively?
I'm sure this has been discussed before on this forum but I usually start out reading the Mormon threads then it heads in too many directions at once and I give up.
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 01/02/2008 1:22 AM |
Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 01/01/2008 5:06 PM
RichTig, the quotes that you have in your post may be confusing to some. There is no book of Abraham or book of Moses in the Christian bible. I believe those quotes came from the Mormon's bible, do you know if that is correct?
Bionicbunny, thank you for your respectful and polite posts!
Don't take my post to be ridicule or attacks, I just don't agree with you.
No problem at all. There is a night-and-day difference between your demeanor, attitude, and spirit and that of those I would classify as “ridiculing” or “attacking.”
Briefly, Mormons accept the following as scripture along with the Bible (the same Bible that Christianity uses): the Book of Mormon (an account of God’s dealings through prophets with people in the New World), Doctrine and Covenants (revelations through prophets in modern times) and the Pearl of Great Price (a collection of various other inspired writings through Joseph Smith). The Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses are two important books in the Pearl of Great Price; they give, respectively, additional insight and understanding through the prophets Abraham and Moses that are not in the Bible (including, in this case, information on our existence before we came to earth). The books of Abraham and Moses are not long; you can browse or read them here:
http://scriptures.lds.org/
Click on “Pearl of Great Price;” navigating it should be self-explanatory. You can click on chapter summaries in lieu of the chapters themselves to give yourself an overview.
Who wrote the Gospel Principles book that was referred to above? Was it Joseph Smith?
Does it supercede the Bible?
When you say it explains pre-existence, do you mean before the birth of Jesus on this earth or the pre-existence of God?
When you say that God is our father, do you mean it literally or figuratively?
The “Gospel Principles” manual was written and approved by committees under the direction of the Church’s general authorities (apostles and other authorities with general jurisdiction over the world-wide church), using the scriptures and accepted authoritative writings and statements by Joseph Smith and other leaders. It is intended to be a valuable reference for investigators, curious non-Mormons, new members, and in fact all members as to fundamental doctrines and principles of the Church. It doesn’t supercede or replace the Bible, Book of Mormon, etc.; it is grounded in them and based upon them. The entire manual is available online:
http://tinyurl.com/36yxyz
For this thread and your above questions, all of Unit One and chapter 47 should be helpful to you. Briefly, the “pre-existence” refers to our existence before coming to earth; we don’t have very much detail on God’s past before we were created as spirit children. We believe God to be our literal Father, and we believe that we have a mother in heaven as well.
Moinmoin, here are my answers to your questions according to my beliefs.
Satan is a fallen angel
Yes, God created Satan
Yes, God is all knowing
Yes, God is all powerful
Yes, God created everything out of absolutely nothing
We are all children of God
We are called children of God because He created us and we are His.
Thank you! I kind of thought these would be your answers! 
Angels are not human, they are angels. I don't understand exactly what that means right now, maybe someday God will tell me. But they were created by Him and are different than us.
On this, I would ask where it says in the Bible that “angels are not humans” or that they “are different than us.” For that matter, where does the Bible clearly define what, exactly, a “spirit” is? These are not “Biblical” beliefs, but rather beliefs through tradition or creeds.
Mormons have modern-day scripture that confirms and clarifies what the Bible says. With the fulness of scripture that is available, angels are not some ineffable and vague concept, but spirit family to us on earth, sent by God, who either haven’t come to earth yet, have died and are awaiting resurrection, or have already been resurrected. But they're God's children, too, the same as we are!
Like a board with several nails has a fixed position in a wall, while a board with only one nail can be placed in an innumerable number of positions within the 360 degrees of a circle, the fulness of scripture steers one past the multiplicity of churches based on the same Bible, but disagreeing on many fundamental things. Should one tithe, or not? Is baptism essential for salvation, or not? Should one abstain from commerce on Sunday, or not? Should the Sabbath be the first or last day of the week? Is sex outside of marriage a sin, or not? Trinity, or not (this was the actual reason for the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches in 1054 A.D.)? Should missionary work or evangelizing be extended only to the heathen or “unchurched,” or to everyone? And on and on, even taking the Mormon Church completely out of the equation; Christianity is all over the map on these and many other questions, yet all are grounded upon essentially the same Bible.
Is it worse for Satan to be Jesus' brother than a fallen angel? It doesn't matter, because the Bible says nothing about them being brothers so the point is moot.
What, exactly, does the Bible say about Satan/Lucifer being an angel, or what an angel is or is not?
The trinity is Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Jesus is God. If you say that Satan and Jesus are brothers you are saying that Satan is God. Moinmoin, qwerty, how do you explain this?
This doesn’t logically follow (If Jesus = God, and Lucifer is Jesus’ brother, then Lucifer = God). While I believe that Jesus is God, I also believe that Jesus is my brother, and I can assure you that I am not God.
Long story short on this issue, bringing this whole issue up at all is nothing more than the ultimate version of “Godwin’s Law”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Godwin’s Law states that the longer an online discussion, the greater the likelihood that somebody will compare somebody or something else to Nazism, Hitler, etc. It’s the ultimate in lame name-calling, and the intent of people who want to “throw this tidbit out there” is to shock people and “poison the well” against Mormons.
(“Psssst — them Marmins believes the devil’s Jesus’s brother!”)
I guess we Mormons could just say that the devil isn’t Jesus’s brother because he left the family long ago. 
Thanks again for your polite and respectful posts, Bionicbunny!
— mm | | | |
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| | CODEBLEU
Posts:202
| | 01/02/2008 3:44 AM |
Alert | Actually, I’m not sure where you are going with this. I have never understood how people could arbitrarily follow religions that man decides to start on his own. I do hope the following helps answer your questions as it is all that I know of from historical records which addresses your questions.
Angels were created by God just as everything else in our world has been created by God including mankind. God created everything in the beginning from nothing. Since he created everything in the beginning from nothing then you would have to include Satan as one of Gods creations. Satan actually is believed to have been an Angel that was created by God but became evil by his own doing along with other spirits that fell from grace. Genesis Chapter 3 addresses Satan in the Bible by reference to a snake.
Angels are merely a truth of faith in Scripture. If you read from St. Augustine’s works he says that “Angel” is the name of their office, not of their nature. If you seek the name of their nature, it is “Spirit”; if you seek the name of their office it is “Angel”. Basically St Augustine is telling us that Angels from what they are would be called ‘Spirits’, and that from what they do would be ‘Angels’. So their whole beings are then servants and messengers of God. As such, Satan is the name of a fallen Angel or Spirit however you prefer to use the nomenclature.
Jesus however is the son of God who was sent to redeem our sins. If the apostles believed in the church which Jesus put Peter in charge of, then why do so many people today want to make it even more confusing for the common man to follow the Word of God?
I personally believe it all comes down to the seven deadly sins which have haunted mankind since eternity. In the end I believe we will all be judged for how we lived our life on earth and if we stayed true to the one church that Jesus started in the name of his father.
With that being said, I will leave this discussion to sip more Cognac and smoke my Cigar as I contemplate the good that God will make of the evil in this world. Like they say, something good comes out of everything. There is a reason to the rhyme.
God Bless us all, we truly need it as we begin 2008!
Commander Codebleu
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| | JasonY
Posts:2581
| | 01/02/2008 8:34 AM |
Alert | | Satan is a fallen angel whose selfish and power hungry greedy motives got him and his cronies a one-way ticket to hell. To say he is the brother of Jesus is nothing short of heresy.......... | |
"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 01/02/2008 9:21 AM |
Alert | This is my non-attacking post I don’t even care who answers it, as long as it is a nice post. I’m betting even a few LDS members could give me insight, because that is how far behind the “mainstream” Christian teachings I am.
What I believe has already been well explained. I believe in spirit children of God . . . one of whom was Satan. I believe he presented a plan to God where Satan would force us all to do what is right, he would take away our agency, he would then seek all the glory for himself – leaving none for God. When the plan was not chosen, there was a war in heaven. Satan ‘fell from grace’ and was kicked out of heaven.
Our belief in angels has also been explained, they are human-formed and our spirit brother and sisters.
All of this I reiterate so you can understand where my questions come from.
You believe that God created angels and agency and that Satan was an angel who chose poorly and fell from grace, of his own will. URGGGGG, I can’t even come up with words to explain where I don’t see a difference in order to ask a question. I look at it, and I see it as the same basic belief – Satan was created by God, made wrong choices and fell. Whether he was an angel (a spirit – human or not) or a spirit child of God I just don’t get it.
As I have mumbled, this is my stab – if I’m totally off, please correct me. The idea of Satan being a spirit child of God and with his agency becoming evil is ‘blasphemous’ because none of us are spirit children of God – rather a creation similar to a molded sculpture, a painting, an architected building (for lack of better examples)?
But I still have a hard time understanding because in my mind, it would be just as horrible for a “creation” to choose as Satan did as for a spirit child. Moinmoin and qwerty have already stated we do not believe Satan to be any type of God – never was, never will be, etc.
I guess I’m asking that you clear up for me the belief you have – that makes it different. Is it simply the idea of Satan being a spirit child of god vs. a creation? In that case, it seems to me the difficulty with our belief is much less the idea of what we believe Satan to be, but instead what we believe all of us to be - spirit children of God. Which in my mind is so sad – the idea of God not being my Heavenly Father, instead being only my creator; still a very wonderful thing, but I’d rather be His child than His sculpture, kwim?
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:594
| | 01/02/2008 10:49 AM |
Alert | Hebrews 1:5-6
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father?" Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"? And again, when God brings his first born into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him"
This talks about Jesus being Gods first born.
Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 01/02/2008 12:12 PM |
Alert | I'm a bit confused, but that is OK.
We believe Jesus is God's firstborn in both spirit and body. We also believe in ministering angels and that they worship Jesus and God as the godhead.
A few things to break out with - just so I can understand - which honestly is my goal - I like to try to understand - simply to understand, because I know I do NOT know much about the other religions. . .
We believe we all have spirits. We believe our spirits are in our form - they look like us.
We believe Christ taught us, through example, to serve each other.
We believe ministering angels to be spirits who have either not come to earth, or more commonly those who HAVE come to earth and have died. They are God's messengers - serving Him (and us) by doing His will.
I understand you do not believe angels are our brothers and sisters (not human in creation) - therefore, not children of God. I think I am catching on that you believe spirits have no form - rather they take on the form which is required of them at the time.
Do "mainstream" Christians believe we individually have spirits? And if so, what is your definition of spirit - so I can relate it better to my own personal understandings.
Yes, I am very confused!
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 01/02/2008 1:15 PM |
Alert | Posted By CODEBLEU on 01/02/2008 3:44 AM
I have never understood how people could arbitrarily follow religions that man decides to start on his own.
The trick, of course, is determining whether or not something is from God or not, and whether or not people who claim to be prophets are or not. Joseph Smith claiming to be a prophet of God doesn't refute this claim in and of titself any more than Peter or John's claims after the Ascension. If God truly has called and authorized a prophet or apostle, then the fact that He is working through mortal men doesn't negate this fact! People don't "arbitrarily" decide to convert to Mormonism, or Catholicism, or Pentacostalism, or anything; they weigh the spiritual and physical evidence and decide.
Angels are merely a truth of faith in Scripture. If you read from St. Augustine’s works he says that “Angel” is the name of their office, not of their nature. If you seek the name of their nature, it is “Spirit”; if you seek the name of their office it is “Angel”. Basically St Augustine is telling us that Angels from what they are would be called ‘Spirits’, and that from what they do would be ‘Angels’. So their whole beings are then servants and messengers of God. As such, Satan is the name of a fallen Angel or Spirit however you prefer to use the nomenclature.
Ah, but what is a "spirit" or an "angel?" Augustine, or the Bible for that matter, don't explain this. Peoples views on this come through tradition and creeds, not the Bible text itself. If it did, wouldn't this point be settled?
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 01/02/2008 1:25 PM |
Alert | Posted By JasonY on 01/02/2008 8:34 AM
Satan is a fallen angel whose selfish and power hungry greedy motives got him and his cronies a one-way ticket to hell. To say he is the brother of Jesus is nothing short of heresy..........
Why a heresy? And didn't God create Satan to be "selfish and power hungry," according to the creatio ex nihilo view? Did God know Lucifer would fall when He created him?
It sounds like everything boils down to resistance to the idea that God is really our Father, not just in a figurative, metaphoric sense. That's the real issue here, not whether Jesus and the rest of us are brothers and sisters (yes, and Satan and his followers in heaven, too).
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| | CODEBLEU
Posts:202
| | 01/02/2008 9:56 PM |
Alert |
I believe a good start would begin with a review of Chapter 1 in Genesis, and then follow that up by turning to the last page in Revelation and read the Epilogue. This may help you understand some of the issues your having with the subject matter discussed between above referenced material.
Hope this helps. | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:594
| | 01/03/2008 9:47 AM |
Alert | | Why do you need the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price? I thought that the Bible was the complete word of God. Do mormons believe He forgot something or that He needed to modernize His word? We were warned in the Bible about false prophets, how do you know for sure that these "modern" prophets are true and not just sent to mislead a great number of people? | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 01/03/2008 10:04 AM |
Alert | That is a complete change in venue. I thought we were nicely discussing our differing beliefs w/o worrying about the rest. Can't we just do that? I was trying to learn what others believe and then instead of answers I get slammed with how wrong it is to believe in my scripture?
So sad to say, I figured it would happen, so I went to a different source, received answers and at least can say I understand better where you are coming from in your belief of angels - which is what I thought we were discussing.
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:594
| | 01/03/2008 10:10 AM |
Alert | | So you figured that the topic would go back to where it started? Because it started out as me commenting on how the writing in the first post was misleading and why. You changed the topic to angels and then said how confused you were. And last I checked, my questions were not "slamming" anyone. Why do you take offense to somone asking about the books that describe your beliefs? | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 01/03/2008 10:31 AM |
Alert | Posted By CODEBLEU on 01/02/2008 9:56 PM
I believe a good start would begin with a review of Chapter 1 in Genesis, and then follow that up by turning to the last page in Revelation and read the Epilogue. This may help you understand some of the issues your having with the subject matter discussed between above referenced material.
Hope this helps.
Would you please spell out what you're getting at in more detail, CODEBLEU? I'm completely at a loss as to the bearing Genesis 1 has here; as for the end of Revelation 22, I think you're saying that John's proscription against adding to or taking away from "the words of this book" present a difficulty for Mormonism's claim to modern-day prophets and scripture in addition to the Bible.
Is this correct?
Thanks! | | | |
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