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| | Author | Messages | |
moinmoin
Posts:413
 | | 01/03/2008 2:54 PM |
 Alert | Thanks, Joe! I hope you had a good Christmas as well. No need to apologize for any delays --- it's a given that we all have lives away from 85239.com, right? 
Can you be specific about what you find from LDS scriptures that doesn't coincide with what I explained?
Thanks! | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 01/03/2008 2:55 PM |
Alert | Thanks, Joe! I hope you had a good Christmas as well. No need to apologize for any delays --- it's a given that we all have lives away from 85239.com, right?
Can you be specific about what you find from LDS scriptures that doesn't coincide with what I explained?
Thanks! | | | |
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 01/08/2008 10:24 AM |
Alert | Moinmoin,or Love@hm,
Did Jesus die for your sins, (and mine), or for Adam's. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 01/08/2008 1:19 PM |
Alert | Hi, Joe!
All of the above. His atonement is eternal, reaching us in the future and everybody prior to the atonement, retroactively (including Adam and Eve).
Animal sacrifice, practiced by Adam and Eve and their posterity after the Fall, and codified in the Law of Moses, was commanded by God as a frontward-looking symbol of Christ's atoning sacrifice. It was discontinued after Christ's atonement.
What questions did you have from my comments on this thread that seemed to you to conflict with your understanding of Mormon doctrine and scriptures? | | | |
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 01/15/2008 6:53 AM |
Alert | Moinmoin and love@hm,
The Biblical definition of repentance is "to change your mind". To no longer think as you did, and turn away from evil things toward Jesus.
You said that you repent daily. What is your definition of repentance? | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 01/15/2008 8:34 AM |
Alert | When I read the definition of repentance to be “To change your mind . . .” I thought, “That’s right, to change your mind and no longer participate in the sin, but instead to follow God.”
I believe this. In fact, I tried to say it (with different words) in my other post when I said,
“It requires a change in action and a change in attitude”. Truly, I felt my 1st post explained it, but maybe it just made sense to me
But we are not perfect. Nor can we be w/o the atonement Christ made for us. We are sinners. Daily, we will sin.
I think maybe Franklin S. Gonzalez says it a bit better than me. Here is what he says:
Repentance: A Daily Pattern
Repentance is not an incidental or casual thing: wise King Benjamin spoke to his people of “retaining a remission of your sins from day to day.” (Mosiah 4:26; italics added.) I have long been impressed with the “day to day” aspect of being spiritually clean. It seems that, like many commonplace things in life, repentance and forgiveness need to occur in a regular pattern of daily orderliness.
The house we live in sits on a normal block in an average American community. Every blade of grass, every shrub, and every tree on the lot was planted by different members of the family during the years we’ve lived there. During that time, we’ve found through trial and error that the grass looks best when it’s mowed every fifth day. Cutting it after three days is a waste of energy; there’s not enough there to cut. If we wait eight or nine days, it’s too long and thatches into an ugly yellow layer. Yes, five days is just about right.
But some things can’t be done properly at five-day intervals.
Recently, I’d just parked my car in downtown Lubbock, Texas, when a colleague came by, looked at it and said, “Just had it washed, huh?”
Said I, “As a matter of fact, it hasn’t been washed for several weeks.”
He looked at its glittering red surface and then, suspiciously, at me. But it was true.
A few days later, I drove into a service station and the attendant asked where I’d had it waxed. “The truth of the matter is,” I said, “it hasn’t been waxed since I bought it sixteen months ago.”
“You don’t say,” he muttered, somewhat confused.
My car does shine, but not because I wash or wax it frequently. Instead, I take a few minutes and go over it with a damp chamois every morning. Because it’s clean, the paint doesn’t oxidize so fast and it’s actually shinier than it was when I bought it. The right time for preserving paint jobs on cars seems to be every day.
Now, what is the “right” time for repentance? Fortunately, we don’t have to experiment to discover the answer. The Lord has revealed through King Benjamin—and other prophets as well—that the right time to be spiritually concerned about our sins is every day. Once a week is not enough. Once a month or once a year could prove spiritually fatal. (Of course, repeated repentance of the same sin is not repentance at all.)
An essential aspect of true repentance is daily prayer. And it must be meaningful as well as regular. No man genuinely repents if he nonchalantly asks his Father to overlook his shortcomings just before he heads out the door to work. The right way to repent of sins is by going before our Maker in secret prayer, identifying the specific transgression, confessing it, forsaking it, and continuing in the Lord’s Spirit. As the Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph: “I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your minds in solemnity and the spirit of prayer.” (D&C 84:61.)
When our oldest boy went away to school, we instructed him to write home every week and to call at specified intervals. His doing so made the relationship between us even closer and more secure. When he needed to call on us in emergencies, we were happy and grateful to respond. In much the same way, I imagine, our Heavenly Father appreciates regular communication from us.
A few years ago my father needed to drive to Chihuahua City, Mexico, with some other businessmen, none of them members of the Church. When the business had been completed and they were packing the car to return, my father said that he had “forgotten some things upstairs” and went back to the bedroom for his daily prayers. One item of that prayer was a plea for protection on the return journey. His prayer was answered. Their car was involved in a terrible accident that killed the man next to my father instantly and injured the other men critically. My father was barely scratched, and to his expression of grief for the death of his associates was added a great outpouring of gratitude to our Heavenly Father for that protection in answer to his prayers, those daily prayers.
Yes, five days may be right for mowing the lawn, but repentance in the “spirit of prayer” works best when, it happens every day.
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=50aafc3157a6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
Notice he says, “Repeated repentance of the same sin is not repentance at all.” True repentance requires us to promise to never commit the sin again and then NEVER commit the sin again. We “change our mind” and decide instead to follow God.
Does that mean praying, pondering and working at giving up our sin is not a part of the repentance process? Casually saying the words, “please forgive me for yelling at my children” with no intent to change is not repentance, whereas saying with the intent to change, “Forgive me for yelling at my children, give me strength and ability to make changes in my life, that I may be perfected in thee” may be a stepping stone to making the change in our lives. We may not change immediately, we have to make an effort; we have to really work at making that change. If we work at it long enough and hard enough and we rely on the Lord, we can make the change and have full repentance of this particular sin . . . Often our daily repentance is part of the repentance PROCESS (at least that is how I look at it).
There are times when we are able to repent of a sin completely. Our minds are changed and we no longer have a desire to commit the sin.
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|  | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 01/15/2008 9:11 AM |
Alert | Posted By joe_2007 on 01/15/2008 6:53 AM
Moinmoin and love@hm,
The Biblical definition of repentance is "to change your mind". To no longer think as you did, and turn away from evil things toward Jesus.
You said that you repent daily. What is your definition of repentance?
1. Recognize that you have committed a sin and feel genuine remorse for it.
2. Ask God in prayer, in the name of Jesus Christ, to forgive you for that sin. This is not a one-time prayer; rather, one repents until one receives a confirmation through the Holy Ghost that the sin has been forgiven. I have a number of mistakes and imperfections I need to repent of and work on on a daily basis, and the undeniable, unmistakeable feeling of forgiveness I feel as I repent is one of the greatest gifts I have in my life.
3. Commit and recommit to fully live the gospel. As you indicated, Joe, repentance requires a change of heart and mind. When one experiences this, one wants to be more Christ-like in all aspects of one's life. If one truly has repented, one commits to God not to commit that sin again, and earnestly strives to do so. Through continual repentance and the grace of the Lord, we are able to both obtain forgiveness for our sins and overcome our weaknesses and shortcomings.
4. Inasmuch as possible, rectify damage or harm we have inflicted upon others. This is more clear-cut in some instances (stealing; return the item or pay for it or otherwise make amends) than in others (gossip; we can try to repair the damage to someone's reputation, but we ourselves won't be able to fully do this.). Some sins, such as sex outside of marriage or murder, are very serious in the eyes of God precisely because we cannot restore virtue or life.
Serious sins require the involvement of priesthood authority (bishops and stake presidents) in the repentance process. Sometimes, consequences such as excommunication or disfellowshipping are necessary to enable the sinner to fully repent (because of the violation of covenants). Bishops meet with people who have been excommunicated or disfellowshipped regularly to counsel, study, and pray (as long as the member is interested in working through the repentance process).
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 02/15/2008 6:47 AM |
Alert | Finally a couple of minutes to sit down and respond and it only took a month. Allow me to tell you what I have learned about Mormon salvation. Everything in this post is not what I believe, but what I have learned of the LDS teachings. Please clarify anything that you feel I have gotten incorrect.
Mormon salvation is a "works based" salvation. Lets define the terms here again. The Biblical definition of salvation is being forgiven of sin and given eternal life in heaven with God. Hell is defined as a separation from God.
In Mormonism, this is defined as the Spiritual Death. For the LDS church, there are two kinds of salvation: unconditional and conditional. "Through the atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Salvation is twofold: General-that which comes to all men irrespective of a believe in Christ, and Individual-that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, volume 1, Joseph Fielding Smith, pp133-134) General or unconditional salvation gets you immortality and access to the lowest level of heaven. Individual, or Conditional, salvation which is earned is the only way to get to the top level of heaven to be with God. Moroni 10:32 (emphasis is mine)
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. So if you do not "deny yourself of all ungodliness", then His grace is not sufficient for you. So what does it take to "deny yourself of all ungodliness"? Well, that would be to not sin. At all. Right? Can humans do that? Biblical Christians would so 'no'. Mormonism teaches 'Yes'. 2 Nephi 25:23
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. What is "All we can do"? Well, now you're back to "deny yourself of all ungodliness". So can Jesus help Mormons with this? Can he pull them up or do they have to overcome their sins and addictions on their own? | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 02/15/2008 9:52 AM |
Alert | Posted By joe_2007 on 02/15/2008 6:47 AM Everything in this post is not what I believe, but what I have learned of the LDS teachings. Please clarify anything that you feel I have gotten incorrect.
Mormon salvation is a "works based" salvation. Lets define the terms here again. The Biblical definition of salvation is being forgiven of sin and given eternal life in heaven with God. Hell is defined as a separation from God.
In Mormonism, this is defined as the Spiritual Death. In the main correct, but we bristle at being labeled at believing in "works-based salvation." We don't discount or downplay the importance of works, but we don't believe our salvation is "works-based;" we believe it's "Christ-based." As the scriptures you quote show, even after "all we can do," we still need Christ and cannot be saved without Him and His Atonement. Not even the best person with the best track record and least amount of sin can save himself through works. For the LDS church, there are two kinds of salvation: unconditional and conditional . . . General or unconditional salvation gets you immortality and access to the lowest level of heaven. Individual, or Conditional, salvation which is earned is the only way to get to the top level of heaven to be with God. True. All who live on the earth will be resurrected and live again in a kingdom of glory. This is unconditional through the Atonement, whether one believes in it or accepts it or not. Exaltation, or living with God (what you refer to as salvation), depends on us accepting the Atonement in the prescribed manner and being forgiven of God through Christ and sanctified by the Spirit. So if you do not "deny yourself of all ungodliness", then His grace is not sufficient for you. So what does it take to "deny yourself of all ungodliness"? Well, that would be to not sin. At all. Right? Can humans do that? Biblical Christians would say 'no'. Mormonism teaches 'Yes'. This is a misrepresentation. Mormonism does not, and never has, taught that "humans are capable of not sinning at all." You are doing the common tactic here of "making a man an offender for a word" and fixating on the word "all." We are to "deny ourselves of all ungodliness," and "do all that we can do," but the scriptures (Bible and Latter-day) are clear that all people sin and fall short and need a Savior. To repeat: the scriptures you have cited do not denote a belief in Mormonism that perfection on earth is possible, and no Mormon who is at all active and believing in the faith would tell you that. What is "All we can do"? Well, now you're back to "deny yourself of all ungodliness". So can Jesus help Mormons with this? Can he pull them up or do they have to overcome their sins and addictions on their own? All we can do. But, nobody is able to do "all we can do," and we need the Atonement and laws and ordinances of the gospel. We absolutely need Jesus' help in overcoming our weaknesses, sins, addictions, etc. | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 02/15/2008 9:55 AM |
Alert | Joe, I believe you have just hit one the largest misconceptions concerning our belief. You also ask some very good questions. I found myself thinking about this recently and realized I sincerely did not completely understand the concept of being saved by grace alone. Why? Because, every Christian – of any sect, seems to believe in repentance following baptism. Every Christian wants to be a good person: doing what is right, and following Christ’s example. But why, if they believe they are saved at baptism? I could not wrap my head around it. After asking some questions of some friends, I came to realize it is because other Christian churches believe once we believe in Christ we will WANT to be good people, but even if we do not ever make and effort to follow Christ (other than baptism) the desires of our hearts will show what we are and we will be judged according to our hearts. Meaning, if we believe in Christ wholly, we will follow the commandments to show our love, but if we don’t try to follow the commandments, God will know our hearts and will judge us according to what we truly feel, even if we didn’t show it. Now, this is my understanding. Feel free to correct me if I have misunderstood . . . although, I’ll be honest, it will likely confuse me more. You have touched a bit on our definition of salvation. Let me go into a little more detail, and introduce another word. Eternal Life – this is what is gained when we do all we can, and Christ “picks up the tab”. This is when we are perfected in Christ. This is what we desire: to live with God and be like Him. Salvation is granted to those who do not commit the most heinous of sins (murder, false prophet, etc). Eternal Life is given to those who do everything in their power to show faith in God and Christ and to attempt to sin no more. When we do these things, Christ’s atonement for our sins has provided a way for us to become perfect. However, as you stated, men cannot become perfect on their own. We are sinners. Without Christ we are nothing! So, when we deny ourselves of all ungodliness it is that we do all we can to sin no more in this life! It does not mean that we never sin. No. Mormonism does not teach we can become perfect in this life. We instead strive to “love God with all our [your] might, mind and strength”. How do we do this? How do we show God our love? Through our works. We follow His commandments, which includes more than just the 10 commandments, but also commandments to: love one another (service), read scriptures, pray always, etc. Will we be perfect? No. This is where we do “all we can do” and we do it, similar to other Christian belief – because we love God and we want to. I find the more I do the things I have been taught, the more I read my scriptures, the more I pray, the more I serve those around me, the more I say kind words, take care of my kids, the list goes on and on - the more I LOVE GOD! However, when I am not doing these things, my love for God is there, but it doesn’t seem as strong, and I don’t have that closeness that I desire. I do works in order to feel closer to God as I follow His commandments and show Him my love. Now, I do believe it is our faith in God that starts us doing works, but it is the following of commandments that allows us to love God completely, to realize our imperfections, and to desire to fall at His feet in thankful adoration for the sacrifice which has been made on our behalf. Being commanded to do works, is a blessing to us, because it provides a way to feel closer to God. To answer you last question: So can Jesus help Mormons with this? Can he pull them up or do they have to overcome their sins and addictions on their own? Jesus absolutely, without a doubt helps us to reach perfection! He walks next to us to keep us company, he helps us to recover when we stumble, he lifts us when we fall, and he carries us the rest of the way. Without Christ none of us are saved, and none of us can reach eternal life – no matter how hard we try, it cannot be done without the atonement. I believe we truly are not as different on this as many conceive we are. This is shown when you say: Well, that would be to not sin. At all. Right? Can humans do that? Biblical Christians would so 'no'. Mormonism teaches 'Yes'. The misconception is that we believe we can save ourselves, and we do not in any way believe this! We believe we should show our love to God and through faith and works we may have eternal life (where we dwell with God). We believe, without works it is as if our faith does not exist. There are those circumstances when we desire to do what God would have us do and it simply cannot be done. In these times, we do believe we will be judged according to our hearts. Along those lines, when we have the desire to do what is right, but we are simply men and we mess up, God knows our hearts, He knows what we desire and our honest desires, and when we do all we can, our desire becomes “denying [ourselves] of all ungodliness” Because, we WILL still sin, and we WILL make mistakes, but our desires are there, and God knows this. And as Moroni 10:32 says: “if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind, and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ. . .” Clear as mud? | | | |
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 02/20/2008 8:27 PM |
Alert | Creating response offline to get the formats right. I will put it here when I am done. | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 02/21/2008 2:54 PM |
Alert | I'm sorry to bud back in when you have already started your response, but I have been giving some thought to this, and over and over the impression that I should say this has come. . .
While we do believe our works plays a part in our exaltation, it is something we believe in doing piously. We shouldn't go around stating how wonderful we are or how so-n-so should do more and be like us. We serve others and do works (scriptures, prayers, honoring our parents, etc, etc, etc) for Heavenly Father - when we start spouting off or even entertaining ideas of grandeur in our own minds, it is as if we have not done the Lords work at all. Humility plays a large part in how we serve. We believe in serving others we are serving God, doing His work.
I think it is important to note we do not wear our righteousness on our foreheads (so to speak). And when we do, it is not done in righteousness - and I'm certain most of us have been in need of repenting for claiming granduer when it is God who is glorious. This is not to say we can't feel good about doing right - that feel-good feeling is part of the blessing of following the commandments, but we should not be showy, and we should not do things simply to show how good we are. Otherwise, we are hypocrites.
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