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| | Author | Messages | |
joe_2007
Posts:83
 | | 12/19/2007 12:48 PM |
 Alert |
## I respectfully request that Non-LDS members please refrain from posting to this thread. ## If you need to complain about this disclaimer, please do so on the Compalints about Joe's Disclamer thread.
I do not want to exclude anyone and I certainly do not want to offend anyone. I just want to keep the thread as readable so that the information is accessable to those who truely need it. I see a lot of you have good information to provide.If you have any questions or comments, please send them to me by Personal Message (PM). I welcome all input, and I will post any constructive questions or comments to the public thread. Please contact me and I will explain this disclaimer in full.
LDS members please send me a PM with any questions that you may feel that you cannot ask in a public forum.
I will respect your need for annonimity and any questions that I think are constructive for the group to hear will be added to the public thread anonimously.
I will start with two simple questions to avoid the "Shotgun approach".
1) Does the LDS Church teach salvation by works?
Now let me give a quick definition. The Biblical definition of salvation is being forgiven of sin and given eternal life in heaven with God. Hell is defined as a separation from God.
2) Do you know for certain that you will have eternal life with the Heavenly Father?
I am hoping for answers from moinmoin and any other LDS members out there.
Thank you,
Joe | | | |
| | moinmoin
Posts:394
| | 12/19/2007 2:39 PM |
Alert | Posted By joe_2007 on 12/19/2007 12:48 PM
1) Does the LDS Church teach salvation by works?
Glad to, Joe! Thanks for the shift in tone from the latest Mormon/non-Mormon happenings on this forum . . . 
1. I would say, no, the LDS Church does not teach salvation by works. The LDS Church teaches salvation through Jesus Christ. Beginning with faith, repentance, baptism, reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost (the first principles and ordinances of the gospel), one has entered the gate leading back into God's presence. From that point, one must strive to keep the laws and commandments, repenting and relying on the grace and mercy of the Savior when we fall short and sin (as we all do).
Jesus requires good works (obedience) of us, but we aren't saved by the works. We regard faith and works as two oars to the same boat. When one tries to row with just one oar, one goes in a circle and gets nowhere. Both are necessary.
“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works . . . faith without works is dead.” (James 2:18, 20).
2) Do you know for certain that you will have eternal life with the Heavenly Father?
2. At this point, yes, but we don’t regard salvation as a one-time event. No matter what you've done or accomplished in the past, one can always fall from grace and separate oneself from God through one's actions and choices. We don’t give the day and time when we found Jesus (“I was saved at a revival in Texas four years ago”); for us, salvation is something that has to do with our daily lives; we are, as Paul says, to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” day in and day out (Philipians 2:12). Just as Paul wasn’t saying that we “earn” our salvation by obedience and good works, we likewise don’t claim to either. Yet, this does not negate the clear New Testament requirements (from Paul, too) of obedience and keeping the commandments.
An analogy I use in discussing this with people who want to know if I’m “saved” is my mortgage. Notice that both of us talk about being “saved” as if it has already occurred (past tense). Similarly, I say (rightly) that I “bought” my house five years ago in Maricopa. In reality, my wife and I contracted to buy our home. If we faithfully pay or required payments for the next 25 years, we will indeed own our home. However, in the meantime, we can rightly speak of being home owners. We also relied upon the “grace” of the lender in order to “buy” our house, as we did not have $104,000 in cash. Similarly, we cannot return to God on our own, and depend upon Jesus’ grace. Through His atonement, he paid the price for our sins and purchased us, but we have to fulfill the requirements He lays down for us (the gospel, or plan of salvation).
Similarly, when we covenant through faith in Jesus Christ and baptism by those who are authorized to perform it, we contract to be saved. Our actual salvation will depend upon us keeping our end of the covenant (which does not entail perfection; we have constant need of the grace and atonement of Christ).
Another useful analogy for both questions is a group of boys swimming in a river. One of them gets pulled away by a current and cries for help. A quick-thinking boy grabs a nearby long branch and reaches it out to the drowning comrade. He grabs hold of the branch, and his friend pulls him in to safety. The other boys crowd around the two and rightly exclaim that the friend “saved” the drowning boy. Yet, although the branch was reached out to him, the drowning boy still had to reach out and grab the branch. Both external grace and works were necessary. As we “drown” in the seas of life, there are people from both extremes. Some claim that all we have to do is look at Jesus on the shore; others claim that we have to swim the whole way to Him on the shore. In reality, He offers us salvation, and we have to accept it and do what He asks us to do.
Hope that’s helpful!
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| | AZ Dreaming
Posts:286
| | 12/19/2007 9:16 PM |
Alert | This is a public forum for anyone to post their thoughts to any thread on it. If you want to answer religious questions for a particular faith, go to your church and setup a discussion group for people with questons. As far as I can see this is just a way for you to expose your religious beliefs to others, hoping that someone will like what they read and try out your church. Almost as bad as having Jehovah Witnesses coming and ringing your doorbell.
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Senior Member
Joined July, 2005 | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:477
| | 12/19/2007 10:18 PM |
Alert | | . | | | |
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| | bizybeth
Posts:569
| | 12/20/2007 4:04 PM |
Alert | | Input should still come from all avenues, whether LDS or Non-LDS. It is an open forum, and if joe is not LDS, then there are many reference materials available on both sides of the coin, all opinions etc. Shouldn't one consider all the info on LDS, not just what the church puts out? | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:477
| | 12/20/2007 5:24 PM |
Alert | | . | | | |
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|  | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 12/21/2007 6:28 AM |
Alert | Moinmoin,
Those are very good answers. At least you include works in your definition. You are the first person on here that I have seen state that.
I like your mortgage analogy although I think that it has some faults. I like the river analogy even better though.
On the LDS Discussion Intro. thread, nn the topic of salvation, love@hm wrote:
Posted By love@hm on 09/12/2007 11:24 PM
W/O the Savior we cannot reach eternal salvation (what the general Christian population would call heaven). It is only through the Savior that we can be forgiven our sins and return to live with HF. Jesus Christ is the #1 main focus of our religion.
This emphasizes that Jesus is holding out the branch to save us, but it neglects to also say that you have to swim for it.
Posted By moinmoin on 12/19/2007 2:39 PM
1. I would say, no, the LDS Church does not teach salvation by works. The LDS Church teaches salvation through Jesus Christ. Beginning with faith, repentance, baptism, reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost (the first principles and ordinances of the gospel), one has entered the gate leading back into God's presence. From that point, one must strive to keep the laws and commandments, repenting and relying on the grace and mercy of the Savior when we fall short and sin (as we all do).
So do you repent of sins everyday the same way that other Christians do? | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:477
| | 12/21/2007 8:59 AM |
Alert | Joe, forgive me, but I feel a bit taken out of context. You see, if someone asked me if I could get to heaven by saying, "I believe in Jesus Christ" and then doing nothing to show I believe in Christ, I would have to get into a long discussion about kingdoms, heaven, hell - etc. Conversations I have had before - but am not the best at describing past the basics. If someone says
"I was married to a man raised LDS. He had never heard of having to have Jesus as our Savior and that the ONLY way to heaven is through Him."
If seems appropriate to say what you quoted me saying.
So do you repent of sins everyday the same way that other Christians do?
I am not versed in the way other Christians repent, but we are taught to repent of our daily sins - daily. Sometimes it isn't that easy though, is it. Repentance requires more than a simple, "I'm sorry". It requires a change in action and a change in attitude. A few examples:
If I take a candy bar from a store, eat it, enjoy it, get caught and am forced to say, "sorry". But then continue to brag to my friends about stealing that candy bar, or thinking about how good it tasted and wishing for the opportunity to do it again, but then go on to never steal another candy bar - I am not truly repentant.
If I take a candy bar, get caught, see the wrongs of my ways, feel bad, say "I'm sorry" and promise to never do it again - to BOTH the store AND the Lord, then continue on my way and remember to never take another candy bar - because it is wrong (not because you are a bad thief), I'd say I was repentant.
Repenting to never steal a candy bar again, it doesn't have to take much. It is possible to become repantant in one sitting. . . of course - if we are truly repentant we are not promising to never steal another candy bar again, but to never steal anything again. . .
However, many times we are working on repenting human nature. We are working on:
not making rude comments,
not yelling at our kids,
not coveting things which are not ours.
jealousy
hate
pride
and various other sins which we may have committed or struggle with committing regularly.
This repentance takes longer, through prayer, study, and meditation, we may be able to find ourselves truly sorry for our actions. In many of the instances listed above, repentance is an ongoing process throughout an entire life - for all of us. Where one may conquer making rude comments, the same may continue to struggle with pride. . . however, just because we may struggle with pride our entire life, does not mean we don't continue to pray for forgiveness and ask to find humility, in fact, we should be doing so - daily.
Hoping that is a bit clearer than mud - not very eloquent, and probably missing a LOT of detail and good info.
(please forgive any spelling errors - I should start cutting and pasting from word!)
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 12/21/2007 11:16 AM |
Alert | | Thank you, love@hm. I did not mean to take you out of context, but that was all that you had written at the time. Thank you for joining in to clarify. I'll add somemore to this soon. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:394
| | 12/21/2007 11:42 AM |
Alert | Posted By joe_2007 on 12/21/2007 6:28 AM
So do you repent of sins everyday the same way that other Christians do?
Yes. As love@hm indicated, repentance is an ongoing and central part of our daily life in the gospel. I can only speak for myself, of course; I do repent of things on a daily basis. I have felt through the Holy Ghost when my sins have been forgiven, and the burden of sin lifted from my shoulders, and I teach others that they are entitled to this witness themselves. We can know with surety where we stand with God.
In addition to frequent and consistent repentance, Christ also instituted the sacrament (also called communion or the Eucharist in other churces). We teach that worthily partaking of the emblems of Christ's body and blood (bread and water) renews our covenants with God and retains remission of our sins. We don't therefore, seek baptism every time we sin; the sacrament fills this role as an ordinance. If one faces unrepented and unresolved sin during the ordinance of the sacrament, one is instructed not to partake of it until these sins are resolved. I have withheld myself from partaking of the sacrament on occasion, and this occurs weekly on an individual basis in our congregations.
If anyone has any other questions along these lines, or if I need to clarify anything, post away! 
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 12/21/2007 11:54 AM |
Alert | Side Question.
Love@hm and Moinmoin, how long have you each been members of the LDS church? | | | |
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| | right_on_time
Posts:0
| | 12/21/2007 1:59 PM |
Alert | | I have been following these Mormon discussions. I like to read what Moinmoin says. As an LDS member myself, he very clearly has laid forth what I have learned at church my entire life. I have been a member for 29 years. I would say that if you are looking for information about what the LDS church teaches or what they believe, Moinmoin is doing an excellent job of explaining it! | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:477
| | 12/21/2007 2:18 PM |
Alert | | I've been an active member since my baptism - before that, I attended regularly with my family from the time of birth | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:394
| | 12/21/2007 2:27 PM |
Alert | | I'm a sixth-generation Mormon who's been an active member his whole life. I'm from the Chicago area and served as a missionary in northern Germany. | | | |
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| | poobaa
Posts:154
| | 12/22/2007 8:32 PM |
Alert | I personally can not suspend dis-believe. I wish when I die to be in a state of blissful nothingness, Nirvana. I hope to get there through works, in the 8th fold way.
What will happen if I fail?
"Nirvāṇa ( Sanskrit: निर्वाण; Pali: निब्बान Nibbāna; Prakrit: णिव्वाण Nivvāṇa; Vietnamese: Niết bàn; Chinese: 涅槃; Mandarin Pinyin: nièpán, Cantonese: nihppùhn; Japanese: nehan (涅槃?); Korean: 열반, yeolban; Thai: nibpan นิพพาน); Tibetan mya-ngan-las-'das-pa; Mongolian ɣasalang-aca nögcigsen);Burmese: nate ban edAmef); is a Sanskrit word that literally means "to cease blowing" (as when a candle flame ceases to flicker) and/or extinguishing (that is, of the passions). It is a sramana philosophical concept, used by the Jains and the Buddhists, to describe the enlightenment and liberation of their respective teachers.
Nibbāna is a word used by the Buddha to describe the perfect peace of the mind that is free from craving, anger and other afflictive states (kilesa). This peace, which is in reality the fundamental nature of the mind, is revealed when the root causes of the afflictive states are dissolved. The causes themselves (see sankhara) lie deep within the mind (that part of the mind that Western psychology calls the unconscious) but their undoing is gradually achieved by living a disciplined life (see eightfold path). In Nibbana the root causes of craving and aversion have been extinguished such that one is no longer subject to human suffering (dukkha) or further states of rebirths in samsara. The Buddha in the Dhammapada says of Nirvāṇa that it is "the highest happiness". This is not the sense-based happiness of everyday life, nor the concept of happiness as interpreted by Western culture, but rather an enduring, transcendental happiness integral to the calmness attained through enlightenment or bodhi. The knowledge accompanying nirvana is expressed through the word bodhi. In Jainism, it means final release from the karmic bondage. When an enlightened human, such as, an Arhat or a Tirthankara extinguishes his remaining aghatiya karmas and thus ends his worldly existence, it is called nirvāṇa. Technically, the death of an Arhat is called nirvāṇa of Arhat, as he has ended his wordly existence and attained liberation. Moksa, that is to say, liberation follows nirvāṇa. An Arhat becomes a siddha, the liberated one, after attaining nirvana."
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"What me worry"
If you don't know where you are going, it matters less what road you take | |
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| | missPolitick
Posts:631
| | 12/23/2007 8:27 AM |
Alert | | poobaa, I also hope that when I die, I can be in a blissful state of nothingness. We are taught to strive for the highest kindom of heaven so we can be happy for eternity, but I don't want to live for an eternity. It sounds like an awful long time! | |
Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:394
| | 12/27/2007 1:05 PM |
Alert | joe_2007:
You might find this, from today's Christianity Today, interesting in light of this thread's topic. It's a discussion on the divide in Christianity over when a person is saved, and what evidence, both internal and external, should be apparent to oneself and to others.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/december/29.56.html
Thanks!
--mm | | | |
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| | darin45
Posts:145
| | 01/02/2008 12:41 PM |
Alert | Well, being a Christian...I can tell you that alot of LDS concepts do coincide with the Christian faith. Salvation is pretty much the same. You must ask Jesus Christ into your heart and confess your sins. Also you must believe in salvation through the cross at Calvary. Good measures alone are not good enough to get ya in!
I've been facinated with the LDS faith and its large growth in the world. I think the thing that troubles me is talk of planets, different levels of heaven, etc... | |
"...you knew that before you came here"- The 85239.com's stupid answer to every comment" | |
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 01/03/2008 12:31 PM |
Alert | | . | | | |
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 01/03/2008 12:31 PM |
Alert | Moinmoin,
Sorry for the delay. I hope that you had a nice Christmas.
For Mormons, is there more than one form of salvation? What you have described does not seem to coincide with what I have found in the LDS Scriptures.
Maybe we are talking about two different things.  | | | |
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