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| | Author | Messages | |
Nothingtodo
Posts:285
 | | 07/19/2007 8:39 AM |
 Alert | I don't believe for a second that religion is the cause of wars. It has always been about power and money. Take away the cloak of religion and power-hungry people will find another cloak.
Religion has been a scapegoat, in my opinion, for many things.
Pros - I won't have to listen to fundamentalists blather about on the news anymore.
Cons - Many people would lose what keeps them going and would be very afraid.
And EEE? Aren't you even a little bit tired of your accusation that not having God means not having a conscience? | |
I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven’t got the guts to bite people themselves. ~Sir Geoffrey Streatfield | |
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| | NEZ
Posts:515
| | 07/19/2007 8:52 AM |
Alert | Posted By Jesus on 07/1/2007 2:49 AM
Positive: People will stop sniveling to me to fix every little problem.
Negative: No more laughing at Evangelicalsdiv>
Interesting take, Lord.
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AmyG steals lil' nick nacks from your home.
Don't let AmyG in your house. | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 07/19/2007 9:48 AM |
Alert |
And EEE? Aren't you even a little bit tired of your accusation that not having God means not having a conscience?
I believe everybody has a conscience, both Theist and Atheist. Many Atheist argue they have morals because it helps preserve the human race.
However, God gives ever person a conscience, by writing the laws on their heart. Man can't do good on their own.
Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness...
For context read:
Rom 2:11-16
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Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/19/2007 9:58 AM |
Alert | Posted By Trogdor! on 07/19/2007 8:17 AM Correct me if I'm wrong but you believe that religion is simply a man-made construction, right? So how is it that you can come to the conclusion that those things wouldn't exist without religion? This argument doesn't make any sense. Yes, I believe religion is man-made, but that has no bearing on the outcome of eliminating it. Religion is a cause, get rid of the cause and you get rid of the effect.
It does make sense and you just proved why. You're after getting rid of those individual items, which as I stated before are the real reasons people go to war. Absent those ideas, religion could exist without wars, but absent religion, those ideas would still exist. To put it another way, in your world some people a long time ago made up a religion. They put their ideas, hate, etc. into the religion (which is a false premise in the first place). Now you seem to think getting rid of the religion would get rid of the reasons to go to wars. It doesn't work this way! People still buy into the hate because they like it and they would still be just as willing to go to war.
As for the "atrocities" committed in the Bible, people always forget that the people who were wiped out were given ample warning to correct their ways. It would be like you or I complaining about a murderer being locked up in prison. Ample warning or not, I would still consider it genocide. What if Hitler gave "ample warning" to the Jews. Would you consider that to be okay too, or is it just "God" that gets a free pass?
Hitler is not capable of accurate judgment. If there were a God that created everyone, He would be capable of judgment. Or is it that people should get to do what they want with no consequences?
Furthermore, would you agree if the Maricopa Police caught a murderer, that they should answer for their crime? What if they caught five? 100? What if they caught the entire city? Suddenly it's acceptable if they catch the entire city?
It would explain a lot of things if we knew how and why we got here. People could then be more sure in accepting or rejecting what they believe. It is extremely foolish to overlook where we came from. So now you're calling me a fool? I agree that it would be nice if we knew how and why we got here, but I'm willing to admit that we may never know. Human history, on the other hand, would be foolish to overlook. Studying the past, after all, gives us further insight on the human condition.
I did not say you were a fool. I said it would be foolish to overlook where we came from. Being "willing to admit we may never know" is a cop-out and the very sort of thing people accuse religion of: an excuse to not even try to know. Were we came from is human history and would give us immense insight on the human condition. If you were completely secure in your belief that no higher power created the universe and man-kind, you shouldn't have any trouble pushing just as hard to understand why we got here. It's not as if we don't have the resources to try to find out. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Michelle
Posts:102
| | 07/19/2007 10:48 AM |
Alert | Admitting that we may never know is not a cop-out. It's honest, and humble in a way that Christians are supposed to be humble but seldom are. Inventing your own answer and naming it "God" is the cop-out, especially when that answer is neither evidence- nor logic- based. In my opinion, the notion of a personal god or god trivializes our existence.
Theists have attempted to portray atheism as a "doctrine of despair." Setting semantics aside (because it isn't a "doctrine" at all), the statement is still patently untrue: even in the absence of a god or gods, the universe possesses in all of its inexplicable intricacy its own inherent beauty. I find true joy in this, because it makes me feel connected to something much larger than myself that does not need to be defined within the context of the human experience. Is this feeling — two parts awe and one part humility — akin to spirituality? Perhaps.
I realize I'm treading more towards pantheism than atheism with this line of thinking, but the point remains: while science does not diminish this inherent beauty by seeking to explain it, religion diminishes it by seeking to explain it away.
"I have a bible. Its letters are stars and its punctuation, planets. It’s written across the night sky in a language that anyone can decipher if they take the time to look up. It’s printed on leaves and in the pattern of stones on a river bottom. All the creatures of the Universe murmur its words in unending chant, keeping the hours holy. It fills me with recognition that what is within me and what is without me are the same. When everything is exquisite abundance there is no void to be filled." - Janet Snowhill
"The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly: this is religiousness. In this sense, and in this sense only, I am a devoutly religious man." - Albert Einstein | |
I used to be Chelle.
"Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 07/19/2007 11:04 AM |
Alert | Posted By Michelle on 07/19/2007 10:48 AM
Admitting that we may never know is not a cop-out. It's honest, and humble in a way that Christians are supposed to be humble but seldom are. Inventing your own answer and naming it "God" is the cop-out, especially when that answer is neither evidence- nor logic- based. In my opinion, the notion of a personal god or god trivializes our existence.
Theists have attempted to portray atheism as a "dotrine of despair." Setting semantics aside (because it isn't a "doctrine" at all), the statement is still patently untrue: even in the absence of a god or gods, the universe possesses in all of its inexplicable intricacy its own inherent beauty. I find true joy in this, because it makes me feel connected to something much larger than myself that does not need to be defined within the context of the human experience. Is this feeling — two parts awe and one part humility — akin to spirituality? Perhaps.
I realize I'm treading more towards pantheism than atheism with this line of thinking, but the point remains: while science does not diminish this inherent beauty by seeking to explain it, religion diminishes it by seeking to explain it away.
"I have a bible. Its letters are stars and its punctuation, planets. It’s written across the night sky in a language that anyone can decipher if they take the time to look up. It’s printed on leaves and in the pattern of stones on a river bottom. All the creatures of the Universe murmur its words in unending chant, keeping the hours holy. It fills me with recognition that what is within me and what is without me are the same. When everything is exquisite abundance there is no void to be filled." - Janet Snowhill
"The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly: this is religiousness. In this sense, and in this sense only, I am a devoutly religious man." - Albert Einstein
Worshiping what is created, rather than the Creator.
..they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator...(Rom 1:25)
I love how the Bible addresses Man's foolish attempt to replace him and we see how it's relevant even today. There is truly nothing new under then sun. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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|  | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/19/2007 11:22 AM |
Alert | Posted By Michelle on 07/19/2007 10:48 AM
Admitting that we may never know is not a cop-out. It's honest, and humble in a way that Christians are supposed to be humble but seldom are. Inventing your own answer and naming it "God" is the cop-out, especially when that answer is neither evidence- nor logic- based. In my opinion, the notion of a personal god or god trivializes our existence.
It is being resigned to the fact that we may never know that is the cop-out. Trogdor's posts carry a tone of resignation and acceptance of the fact that we may never know. That most certainly is a cop-out. It is not sufficient to simply appreciate what we have, but it is the very definition of who we are to seek how we came to be.
I realize I'm treading more towards pantheism than atheism with this line of thinking, but the point remains: while science does not diminish this inherent beauty by seeking to explain it, religion diminishes it by seeking to explain it away.
There you go again with the "seeking to explain it away." The Bible does no such thing.
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Joseph Goebbels.
This is no more evident than in the opinions stated in this thread. So far we have seen the following false claims of religion and men:
- Wars will stop or be significantly reduced if religion didn't exist.
- Religion seeks to mask the truth and replace it with a fairy tale.
- It's OK for man to judge a handful of people in it's justice system but not OK for a higher being to make judgments.
- We may never know how we got here so we might as well not try to find out. Just appreciate what we have.
- There is absolutely no proof for religion whatsoever.
The casual reader might read the eloquence of what Trodgor and Michelle have to say, but does that make the statements any more true? Not with a simple examination of the claims. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/19/2007 11:25 AM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 07/19/2007 11:04 AM
Worshiping what is created, rather than the Creator.
..they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator...(Rom 1:25)
I love how the Bible addresses Man's foolish attempt to replace him and we see how it's relevant even today. There is truly nothing new under then sun.
You've got to love the audacity of those that simply ignore the prophecy in the Bible.  | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | NEZ
Posts:515
| | 07/19/2007 11:33 AM |
Alert | You two are going to hell. | |
AmyG steals lil' nick nacks from your home.
Don't let AmyG in your house. | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 07/19/2007 11:37 AM |
Alert | Posted By NEZ on 07/19/2007 11:33 AM You two are going to hell.
define Hell | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | NEZ
Posts:515
| | 07/19/2007 11:49 AM |
Alert | | A place devoid of God. A place you'll be going since I'm pretty sure Jesus doesn't like you. | |
AmyG steals lil' nick nacks from your home.
Don't let AmyG in your house. | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | | Michelle
Posts:102
| | 07/19/2007 12:14 PM |
Alert | Jason,
I actually agree with you, insofar that religion is often the excuse rather than the reason for violence. Do I think that all atrocities currently committed in the name of religion would cease if religion itself did? No, of course not. I do think that some people who condone or even perpetrate these atrocities do so not because they are "evil," but because they have been brainwashed to believe that their faith requires it of them and that it is not only justifiable but also necessary and righteous in the eyes of their god. With religion or without it, there will always be bad people. Unfortunately, religion has a habit of making good people do bad things because they no longer perceive them as bad. | |
I used to be Chelle.
"Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich | |
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| | Phantom78
Posts:232
| | 07/19/2007 2:24 PM |
Alert | Posted By Michelle on 07/19/2007 12:14 PM
Jason,
I actually agree with you, insofar that religion is often the excuse rather than the reason for violence. Do I think that all atrocities currently committed in the name of religion would cease if religion itself did? No, of course not. I do think that some people who condone or even perpetrate these atrocities do so not because they are "evil," but because they have been brainwashed to believe that their faith requires it of them and that it is not only justifiable but also necessary and righteous in the eyes of their god. With religion or without it, there will always be bad people. Unfortunately, religion has a habit of making good people do bad things because they no longer perceive them as bad.
Is it religion that makes them do bad things?
Could there be other reasons for doing bad things?
Religion is blamed if the person professes the religious ties...What if they aren't attached to a religion, then they're just labeled a bad person.
It is in our nature not to take the blame for our own actions but blame someone or something first!
All of us know the difference between right and wrong we choose what path we take. | |
It’s not a glass half full (optimism) or a glass half empty (pessimism)—it’s half of a glass of water (reality). Expend your energy and mental capacity on something worthwhile!
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| | TheBoymaker
Posts:787
| | 07/19/2007 2:54 PM |
Alert | Positive: there would be one less pretext for hating and judging millions of strangers. You'd have to find something else to hate them for.
Negative: there would be one less source of comfort, joy, positive moral guidance and community in the world.
I love my faith, and I know a relationship is going downhill when people let their intolerances slip. It's the first line of attack for vicious people. They know that it hits hard because it is such a personal thing. | |
Poster formerly known as Sassafrass. | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/19/2007 4:04 PM |
Alert | Posted By Phantom78 on 07/19/2007 2:24 PM Posted By Michelle on 07/19/2007 12:14 PM
Jason,
I actually agree with you, insofar that religion is often the excuse rather than the reason for violence. Do I think that all atrocities currently committed in the name of religion would cease if religion itself did? No, of course not. I do think that some people who condone or even perpetrate these atrocities do so not because they are "evil," but because they have been brainwashed to believe that their faith requires it of them and that it is not only justifiable but also necessary and righteous in the eyes of their god. With religion or without it, there will always be bad people. Unfortunately, religion has a habit of making good people do bad things because they no longer perceive them as bad. Could there be other reasons for doing bad things?
I think that's what I've been saying and Michelle just agreed with. But I could be wrong. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Trogdor!
Posts:294
| | 07/19/2007 4:32 PM |
Alert | It is being resigned to the fact that we may never know that is the cop-out. Trogdor's posts carry a tone of resignation and acceptance of the fact that we may never know. That most certainly is a cop-out. It is not sufficient to simply appreciate what we have, but it is the very definition of who we are to seek how we came to be.
That was certainly not my intended tone, but I can understand that interpretation. I still maintain the opinion that religion is that cop-out. I accept that I may never know, but don't feel the need to fill that gap with religion. I would never suggest that we stop looking for answers, but I will say that I firmly believe the answers will not come due to religion. | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/19/2007 5:44 PM |
Alert | | I take the explanation in the Bible as the "why" things happened and not the specifics. No cop out there, but I know what you're saying, some people treat it as a cop-out. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | cvangilder
Posts:16
| | 07/19/2007 8:18 PM |
Alert | The Flying Spaghetti Monster is more reliable. | | | |
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| | cvangilder
Posts:16
| | 07/19/2007 8:21 PM |
Alert | | I actually agree with you Trogdor ... "religion" does not have "the answers" that I think you're talking about. I'm not into religion because it has "the answers". | | | |
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