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| | Author | Messages | |
singinsunqueen
Posts:37
 | | 11/21/2007 12:37 PM |
 Alert | I know i will be bashed for this but i have been attending city council meetings (I have attended them in other cities and other states) and never before have I seen a prayer as part of the agenda. I just wanted to say I think it is very inappropriate and very disrespectful to have a prayer (which mentions jesus btw) at a council meeting where there are people of different religions, some atheist, etc. I know that Christianity is the majority in this town (and I totally respect that religion and all others) however, it is still not the place to have prayer. Save it for the church.
If there are any others that feel the same way, take some action as well.
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| | DesertDweller
Posts:2549
| | 11/21/2007 2:41 PM |
Alert | There was a time when our council meetings were held in a church.
I agree with you. The prayer isn't there to solicit the support and guidance of some deity. It's there to make the citizens think that the council members are upstanding Christian god-fearing individuals just like the majority of those who vote.
You see these in other government functions as well and for the same reason. It's to appease the evangelical voting sector. Tom Foley was a regular at the Senate prayer breakfast. So was Larry Craig.
In a word, hypocrisy. People who need to pray can do so quietly, individually, silently. When they make a public ritual of it, it's not for the reason that it was intended.
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Stupid should hurt!
Desert Dweller - Senior Member - Posts: 2982 - Joined: Feb 2006 | |
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| | Cactus Rob
Posts:923
| | 11/21/2007 5:36 PM |
Alert | I've said it in this forum and I've said it to the City Council as part of my response to an opinion survey mailed to me by the City of Maricopa. The practice should be discontinued. We're just asking for trouble if we continue it.
If you disagree with me that's fine, but before you flame me, simply enter "prayer at city council meetings" in your Google search box. Or copy and paste this into your Internet browser search box:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=prayer+at+city+council+meetings&btnG=Search | | | |
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| | RatPack
Posts:9
| | 11/22/2007 10:03 AM |
Alert | The Supreme Court of the United States has upheld the right of school boards and city councils to have prayer before their meetings. They are praying for wisdom and knowledge to make decisions and I for one believe that they need it.
You guys would have been very uncomfortable at the beginning of our nation when George Washington put his hand on the Holy Bible and took the oath of office and then led out in a two hour worship service giving God praise and thanksgiving for all HE had done.
I will tell you one thing "Get a grip" and get over it. | | | |
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| | CliffinAZ
Posts:405
| | 11/22/2007 11:45 AM |
Alert | Posted By RatPack on 11/22/2007 10:03 AM
The Supreme Court of the United States has upheld the right of school boards and city councils to have prayer before their meetings. They are praying for wisdom and knowledge to make decisions and I for one believe that they need it.
You guys would have been very uncomfortable at the beginning of our nation when George Washington put his hand on the Holy Bible and took the oath of office and then led out in a two hour worship service giving God praise and thanksgiving for all HE had done.
I will tell you one thing "Get a grip" and get over it.
So, I suppose that if you lived in a town where the majority of the town board was--let's say--Muslim, you'd be ok with them praying to the wisdom of Allah and the particular tenets of a Muslim religion, and requiring you to stand in support of it. I guess you'd just 'get a grip' and stand in support/compliance with a religion different from your own.
The point being that it is 2007, not 1776, and unlike those days, there are now many different religions in this country besides Christianity--in case you are so incredibly unobservant as to have missed that fact. Workship of a single, particular denomination has no place whatsoever in a city council meeting, where the purpose of the meeting is to discuss public events affecting EVERYONE--not just Christians. The only place prayer belongs, particularly that worshipping a single form of religion, is in a church that exists for the purpose of worshipping that particular religion.
As someone who is a member of a religion other than Christianity, and who wants to take part in my city's development, I ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT have to stand for respectful observance of Jesus Christ every time my town's business is about to be discussed. That is just immoral--showing contempt and intolerance toward everyone whose religion is different from your own by requiring them to stand in observance of your particular religion (or be pointed out like a sore thumb by being the only folks not standing). The same would hold true for anyone else who isn't Christian--whether they are a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, or atheist, or any other religion/non-religion. This is 2007, an age where any forward-thinking town/city recognizes religious diversity, where folks shouldn't be forced to observe the particular religion of the majority every time there is a public meeting, with a "mob rules" mentality. Sorry, but we're no longer in the dark ages--the whole point of 'freedom of religion' is respect for the diversity of religions in this country, and I should not have to have anyone's particular brand forced down my throat anytime I want to attend a meeting discussing the business and future of my city--a city which is every bit as much mine as yours.
And just so that anyone doesn't misinterpret what I'm saying, I have no disrespect for Christianity or any other religion--but when that religion is shoved down my throat in order for me to attend a meeting that's there for the purpose of determining what happens in the city I belong to and NOT for religious purposes, that's showing an amazing disrespect for MY OWN religion (or anyone else who happens to belong to a religion other than Christianity). | | | |
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| | singinsunqueen
Posts:37
| | 11/22/2007 12:11 PM |
Alert | Cliffinaz,
Well said!!! I couldn't have said it better myself!!!!! | | | |
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|  | DesertDweller
Posts:2549
| | 11/22/2007 1:20 PM |
Alert | I agree, Cliffinaz said EXACTLY what's on my mind much better than I could have said it.
Channel 5 news would be out here to film the first city councilman who decided to toss a prayer rug on the floor, face the east, and start chanting, "Allah Akbar!" The whole media circus would be here the first time some Pagan wanted to sacrifice a goat on the table in the Global Water conference room prior to a meeting. Those folks are entitled every bit as much to their religion and their rituals as Christians or any other faith, including those who chose no religion at all.
In order to represent the all of the people, public meetings must be inclusive rather than exclusive. Prayer is fine for those who want it. It shold be done on their own prior to the meeting, not as an organized public event.
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Stupid should hurt!
Desert Dweller - Senior Member - Posts: 2982 - Joined: Feb 2006 | |
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| | RatPack
Posts:9
| | 11/22/2007 5:24 PM |
Alert | I have lived in countries that are not Christian have attended other religious gatherings in which people of other faiths have prayed to their God. I have listened in respect and prayed silently to my God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Actually Muslims have as much right to pray at the council meetings as anyone. If someone of another faith becomes a council member or requests that they be allowed to pray at a meeting then they should be agiven that right.
If you as an avowed any kind of God don't want paryer then stay outside the meeting until the prayer is over then come in. Or sit in respect and hope that the council members act in wisdom no matter where it comes from. I for one pray that God would provide all our council members wisdom beyond themselves.
Stupid does hurt, so is there anyway that I can pray for your hurt?
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| | CliffinAZ
Posts:405
| | 11/22/2007 7:36 PM |
Alert | Posted By RatPack on 11/22/2007 5:24 PM
I have lived in countries that are not Christian have attended other religious gatherings in which people of other faiths have prayed to their God.
Key phrase--"other religious gatherings." The whole point is that this is NOT a religious gathering. It is a meeting for the sole purpose of planning our city's future. As such, it is not a place of worship or an event in which worship is appropriate. Particularly when the worship is based on a particular religion, and the entire purpose of the meeting is to represent ALL of those in the city, and the decisions made in the meeting impact the future of ALL of those in the city--no matter their religion--and every one of us non-Christians has every bit as much of a stake in these matters as every Christian. Worship to a particular religion in this context is purely inappropriate.
The example you cite above is completely irrelevant, given that you were attending an event for a 'religious gathering' intended for worship within a particular religion. Yes, if I go into a Christian church for any event (service, wedding, funeral, baptism..), I expect to hear Christian worship. But the purpose of a city council meeting is not worship of a religion, and worship of a particular religion in a council meeting is clearly in direct opposition of one of the primary and necessary purposes of the meetings, which is to represent EVERYONE in the city, no matter what their religion or lack thereof. In this setting, worship of a particular religion is simply, clearly wrong.
And in terms of the quote about quietly worshipping my own religion--how about if I go to a council meeting and start saying a Muslim or Hebrew prayer out loud when the praying starts? I don't think it would go over so well, and yet that's entirely hypocritical, because I have every bit as much of a stake in my city's future and am entitled to just a strong voice as any Christian. So MY religion has every bit as much right to be vocally, loudly worshipped at those meetings as much as your Christianity does. This is NOT a Christian city, it is a city for everyone who moves here, where everyone is entitled to the same rights. | | | |
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| | DesertDweller
Posts:2549
| | 11/22/2007 9:04 PM |
Alert | Posted By RatPack on 11/22/2007 5:24 PM
Stupid does hurt, so is there anyway that I can pray for your hurt?
You can if you want, but please not at a city council meeting.
I too have lived in other countries, particularly in Eastern Europe during a time when professing to be any religion could easily get you shot as a subversive instigator. I was there representing our government so that Americans would have the right to believe (or not believe) what they wanted.
What I have seen is a trend in the United States for some to promote their faith while denying others the opportunity to practice theirs. Anyone can pray any time they want and I am fine with that. What I am not fine with is someone forcing me to participate in their religious ritual by virtue of attending a public meeting to which I am entitled and have a vested interest. | |
Stupid should hurt!
Desert Dweller - Senior Member - Posts: 2982 - Joined: Feb 2006 | |
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| | RatPack
Posts:9
| | 11/22/2007 10:33 PM |
Alert | Must have hit a nerve.
I do know that you better not attend a session of Congress or the Supreme Court as both of those government entities open their sessions with prayer. Most state governments oepn their sessions with prayer and most are Christian based.
I have attended other meetings in ourther countries that were not religious in nature and have seen prayer offered. Maylayasia businesses open their business meetings with prayer and they are muslim prayers. I would never tell them in their country they don't have the right to do that.
My point is that if you want to pray a council meeting let your request be made known and the council has no choice but to allow you the same right as any Christian and I would stand right beside you defending your right to say it. I have served in the military to make that right stay alive in this country and even if I don't agree with your belief I will defend your right to express it. In this country we allow all to have the opportunity to pray.
I will look forward to seeing you at a future council meeting, which I attend regularly, and having you pray to whatever God you or no God that you desire. If they deny you that right just ask and I will defend your right to the hilt. But don't take my right to pray in Jesus name away.
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| | drummer72
Posts:3153
| | 11/22/2007 11:54 PM |
Alert | | I find it more offensive when people fart at these meetings and walk away, like they didn't do it. Then I get all the dirty looks because they all think I farted. Where is God when you need him? | |
I'd rather live one day as a lion, than my whole life as a lamb. | |
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| | bendover
Posts:54
| | 11/23/2007 7:59 AM |
Alert | | ....one nation under God...? Where does that fit in? Some people think it should not be recited by our kids in school. Hummmmm | | | |
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| | Cactus Rob
Posts:923
| | 11/23/2007 8:12 AM |
Alert | | As far as I'm concerned, TOO much taxpayer money has already been wasted by government entities trying to defend a practice that is controversial and just plain unnecessary! | | | |
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| | Holy Roller
Posts:24
| | 11/23/2007 12:48 PM |
Alert | Those prayers are nothing more than a request to God that the speaker believes in to provide protection, guidance, and even blessings on a event that is about to take place.
Even if you don't believe in that God how can that offend you? No one is trying to baptize you or convert you to their belief.
If you don't believe in God, or as I suspect the reference to Jesus Christ, simply count the ceiling tiles or even pray to anyone you might choose to believe in during the prayer.
You can most certainly find something else to do during the few minutes the prayer is taking place.
Eph.4: 5-7
Γ] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Δ] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ε] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
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| | Cactus Rob
Posts:923
| | 11/23/2007 1:45 PM |
Alert | Matthew 6:5-8 (NIV)
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
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| | singinsunqueen
Posts:37
| | 11/24/2007 1:05 PM |
Alert | Holyroller:
2 things to say:
1) "one god, one faith".... this is 2007 and my friend, there are many different faiths and gods so don't quote something that is highly offensive to people of other faiths and is ancient IMO.
2) If the speaker is asking god for guidance in helping run this city, sorry... god is not listening!!!! We might have to go even higher up! LOL | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 11/24/2007 5:26 PM |
Alert | 1) "one god, one faith".... this is 2007 and my friend, there are many different faiths and gods so don't quote something that is highly offensive to people of other faiths and is ancient IMO.
This statement is very hypocritical. You ask for someone to be respective of other faiths and then in the same breath tell them they can't believe in what their faith says? Your added "this is 2007" makes your statement reek of new age babble that says we should toss out older ways of doing things just because they are old. Give me a break. If you "totally respect that religion" then you shouldn't make statements like this.
I do not agree with freedom from religion. That was never, ever intended in the founding of this nation and I do not feel that it is a direction we should go in. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Holy Roller
Posts:24
| | 11/26/2007 8:59 AM |
Alert | Singinsunqueen – the scripture I gave was straight from the KJV Bible and again it says One Faith, One Baptism and, One God.
God is the same today in 2007 as He was the day he spoke life in this world. If you do not like that take it up with Him, He is the author not I.
Any one today can come up with their own religion or own god and call themselves anything they want.
However there is only One True God that wrapped himself in flesh and walked among us and died and rose on the third day and His name is Jesus.
Whether you believe it here on earth or when it’s all said and done, God says every Knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!!
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| | ChimneyDuck
Posts:191
| | 11/26/2007 10:27 AM |
Alert | | I, for one, would welcome a prayer before government meetings. There are few things more divisive than politics, so it would be good to start something more divisive to contrast with the relative unity the rest of the meeting would have. | |
http://www.maricopabikeclub.com - Join us for a bicycle ride. | |
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