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| | Author | Messages | |
love@hm
Posts:476
 | | 10/25/2007 9:25 PM |
 Alert | Jason, you take a statement made about a 2-day period and make it sound as if it is about a life-time. Do you believe me such a fool that I would not search for answers and believe on my own? - I do not believe because I have never questioned. I believe because I have received that confirmation.
James 1:5-7 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
We are not taught to follow blindly, we are taught to question all things. To ask God with a sincere heart - That said, once you have determined something to be true, something to be the word of God, someone to be a Prophet. Believing is not difficult; a prophet of the Lord will not teach and cannot teach false doctrine.
tajh, we are constantly having people try to pin-hole us. This is not a new experience. We are not taught to have 'come backs' and are actually told to discuss but not to 'bible bash' - this is about as close as I dare come to "bible bashing" I want to share what we believe, but I have no desire to prove it right or others wrong - only to share my belief. For all I have said, and all I have referenced I have had to do a lot of research, or have been taught the scriptures because of their special meaning - it has never been in order to derail another's beliefs. I share what I have shared because I love my God, and my religion. My testimony is what I shared above.
I mean no disrespect, with what I have read and what you and others have told me, it just seems a little bizarre. When you're born into it and it's all you know, that I can understand. I can't understand a Christian buying any of it. Other worlds, men turning into god like, different levels of heaven, etc. If you really sort it out that way it seems a bit strange.
Hey, now you know how I feel when I try to understand the trinity  holy crud does that NOT make sense in my tiny little brain!
I understand that you may not consider us Christain. However, we believe we are. We believe in God the Eternal Father, in His son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. We believe it is through Jesus Christ and His atonement that we may gain salvation. I don't consider this topic a debate topic because it obviously other Christain sects have different definitions of Christian. Our definition is: a church with a belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior.
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/25/2007 9:33 PM |
Alert | We are not taught to follow blindly, we are taught to question all things. To ask God with a sincere heart - That said, once you have determined something to be true, something to be the word of God, someone to be a Prophet. Believing is not difficult; a prophet of the Lord will not teach and cannot teach false doctrine.
Is there an echo in the room? I said this, but you were the one who said you did not question anything. What Joseph Smith has done is absolutely saying that what came before was false doctrine. God would not issue false doctrine.
I'm not trying to derail anyone's beliefs, they're free to worship what they want. But it makes no sense to call yourself a Christian when you're religion is so clearly trying to co-opt and change the meaning of Christian! | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:476
| | 10/25/2007 9:52 PM |
Alert | Actually, we believe we have the JST because MAN changed the word of God - causing the Bible to contain mis-information. We do not believe that God issued false doctrine, but that after the 12 apostles were no longer on the Earth, that the priesthood was also not on the earth (because the 12 were gone). W/O the priesthood (ie power of God) the translations were not all correct because the priesthood was not available.
I do not believe you are trying to derail us, but I DO think the 'text is getting in the way' again 
Chris·tian –adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
You mentioned you do not believe we teach of the SAME Jesus - I see why you would think we are not Christian. I hope you can also see why we believe we are.
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/26/2007 12:16 AM |
Alert | I can see why you believe that but there's still more flaws and it has everything to do with words, what the Bible says. Even if you're saying that the Bible is merely mistranslated, that still runs afoul of what the Bible says:
2 Timothy 3:16
Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work.
Notice, it says every scripture. If any mistranslation, let alone the significant ones Joseph Smith says happened, were allowed by God, then the whole work falls apart. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | photogirl
Posts:18
| | 10/26/2007 1:27 AM |
Alert | When I looked up the scripture you just quoted, 2 Timothy 3:16 I almost laughed because that scripture ties directly to this discussion in a way I did not expect. A point that I know you will disagree with, but wanted to share for what it is worth to me. The scripture as it is in the King James Version states:
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
In an earlier post it was explained that we have the JST in the footnotes of the LDS copy of the King James Bible. The JST clarifies that the scripture should read, And all scripture given by inspiration of God, is profitable....
This scripture is an example of why we feel that there are mistranslations in the bible that have changed its meaning. Now I know that your point of view on this will most likely sound something like..."convenient to change scripture to match your doctrine..." which I understand you would think coming from where you have stood on these discussions so far. I understand that because I feel the same way about the doctrine of the trinity and its origins... that truths have been conveniently changed throughout history to fit men's view of what they think things should be, or what would be a compromise between different beliefs. The LDS call this the Apostacy, where the full truths of the Gospel were lost. Love@hm mentioned our belief of the Apostacy and Restoration just a few posts earlier. This is what is at the heart of all these discussions and disagreements- whether there was ever an apostacy or need for Restoration. As I read 2 Timothy 3:16, with the translation by Joseph Smith, ALL scripture given by inspiration of God (which would include the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price) is good. If men change the translation of scripture without God's consent, then I see nothing wrong with a prophet, being inspired and called upon by God, correcting that scripture to bring back the original meaning that was lost. If God, as it seems that you are stating, would not allow anyone to mistranslate the bible, then it seems that he would also not allow there to be so many interpretations of the same scripture. Yet, as I have tried to research what it is that “mainstream” Christianity believes, I find so many different interpretations and arguments over scripture passages that I can’t get a good grasp on what is believed. And that strengthens my belief in the gospel even more, and in the need for the restoration of the fullness of the truth.
It boils down to whether Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and had the authority from God to restore the full truth to the earth. Every argument here has been to that effect. I can see why you all are exasperated that we wouldn't even take a second thought at our beliefs when you bring something up that in your mind discredits them. But it seems to me (and I am not trying to be rude, just making an observation) that you all have this assumption that we do not study scripture, do not question what we are taught or try to find out if what we are being taught is true, or that we are coersed into believing something against our will, or tricked to believe the gospel teaches one thing when our leaders really believe another. I can't speak for every member in the entire church, but I can speak for myself that I have studied the scriptures, I have been to other churches, I have had MANY discussions with people of other faiths, including ministers of other faiths, I have read much of the literature that preaches against Mormonism, and I have tried to gain an understanding for myself of what is true. Everything I have done has led me back to the same point- that I DO BELIEVE WITH EVERYTHING IN ME that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon is truly another testament of Jesus Christ, that God still speaks to us today through personal revelation and through Prophets and Apostles. I read their words every month in the Ensign (a church magazine, for those not familiar with it), and listen to them speak at every General Conference (every 6 months in April and October the church holds meetings that are broadcast to members throughout the world), and then I study what they have said, and pray about it. I don't take a second thought because every day of my life is spent trying to learn and understand the Gospel better in some way.
I am sure you all have the highest intentions of bringing us to a knowledge of what you believe is true, but we also have an abiding knowledge of what we believe is true. That is why these discussions seem to get so heated. That is why we respond when you bring these points up. We study the questions you raise and then come back with what we have found. You feel that each thing you say is a silver bullet and will bring down everything that we felt we knew. But with every question you ask, I study for the answers, and find that my belief in the truthfulness of the Gospel only deepens.
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/26/2007 2:11 AM |
Alert | Why would God lead people astray?
Why, after all those years would God say, "hey, all that worship was nice, but now you might like to know who I really am." Why would He prevent the people between Jesus and Joseph Smith from knowing who he truly was and leaving them in a kind of twilight zone of faith?
Simply claiming mistranslation is not enough, as the questions I have repeatedly asked, like the one above, go unanswered. Another one: God is immutable, so how could He have been man at one time? Any less in any way, shape or form would mean He is not immutable. I've presented clear and plain logical fallacies and those go unanswered. It's always, "we believe..." as if that is the silver bullet to these arguments. You cannot just wish away such blatant logical contradictions. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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|  | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/26/2007 2:38 AM |
Alert | | A mention was made earlier about Ezekiel and sticks. That is completely misunderstood if you're reading it as proof that the Mormon text is foretold by the Bible. That passage, the specific words selected mean that there will be a joining of two tribes, nothing else. There is no explicit authorization anywhere in the Bible for future "revelations" because the Word is God and vice-versa. To say the Word is incorrect is to say God is incorrect. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/26/2007 2:47 AM |
Alert | A Marvelous Work and A Wonder states that the Mormon text is a "familiar spirit". Yet...
Leviticus 19:31
Do not turn to the spirits of the dead and do not seek familiar spirits to become unclean by them. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | tajh
Posts:32
| | 10/26/2007 6:55 AM |
Alert | Posted By love@hm on 10/25/2007 9:25 PM Jason, you take a statement made about a 2-day period and make it sound as if it is about a life-time. Do you believe me such a fool that I would not search for answers and believe on my own? - I do not believe because I have never questioned. I believe because I have received that confirmation. James 1:5-7 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. We are not taught to follow blindly, we are taught to question all things. To ask God with a sincere heart - That said, once you have determined something to be true, something to be the word of God, someone to be a Prophet. Believing is not difficult; a prophet of the Lord will not teach and cannot teach false doctrine. tajh, we are constantly having people try to pin-hole us. This is not a new experience. We are not taught to have 'come backs' and are actually told to discuss but not to 'bible bash' - this is about as close as I dare come to "bible bashing" I want to share what we believe, but I have no desire to prove it right or others wrong - only to share my belief. For all I have said, and all I have referenced I have had to do a lot of research, or have been taught the scriptures because of their special meaning - it has never been in order to derail another's beliefs. I share what I have shared because I love my God, and my religion. My testimony is what I shared above. I mean no disrespect, with what I have read and what you and others have told me, it just seems a little bizarre. When you're born into it and it's all you know, that I can understand. I can't understand a Christian buying any of it. Other worlds, men turning into god like, different levels of heaven, etc. If you really sort it out that way it seems a bit strange. Hey, now you know how I feel when I try to understand the trinity holy crud does that NOT make sense in my tiny little brain! I understand that you may not consider us Christain. However, we believe we are. We believe in God the Eternal Father, in His son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. We believe it is through Jesus Christ and His atonement that we may gain salvation. I don't consider this topic a debate topic because it obviously other Christain sects have different definitions of Christian. Our definition is: a church with a belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior.
Love- I apologize for referring to you as a non-Christian. I must have let my typing get away from me. I was always raised that a Christian is one who accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. What I was referring to is non denominational Christians.
I respect your beliefs and hope in no way I have offended you. I seek answers because I am intrigued, I don't expect you to try to convert me nor do I expect anyone to convert you. I don't want to 'prove you wrong', although yes, I have my opinions, but I think it may be sad if, just say for instance, you started to doubt your faith (I know you won't, but just say...).
Religion is such a tricky thing. I guess we'll find out in the end which is right and which is wrong. Reading all this stuff kind of bumms me out... it really makes me consider what Christians' in general have gone through.
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Whether your riches greater than mine,
your mind wiser than mine;
you are not above nor below
I am your neighbor, I am equal.
-Me | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:521
| | 10/26/2007 8:58 AM |
Alert | Wow I have to say, this is the nicest LDS thread ever. The information is wonderful coming from every side. And it has remained friendly!
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| | moinmoin
Posts:394
| | 10/27/2007 10:24 AM |
Alert | Wow! Lots to discuss, explain, and respond to from the last few days. Some of us have to work for a living (just kidding)!
I will respond to what I can, time and opportunity allowing. Family, church, work, and spotty dial-up internet all prevent me from posting as often as I’d like. Because my internet connection has been really unreliable lately (it cuts out after a few minutes, and reconnecting takes many attempts, only to cut out again), I have read through the thread and written down responses, questions, and points that I need to respond to. I will probably respond to most posts individually, but I may need to post a big “omnibus” post to cover several things as well. If I do this, I hope it doesn’t seem like the preacher and the farmer:
A preacher had prepared an epic sermon, but was bitterly disappointed when the only one to show up on Sunday was an old farmer. Determined to give his discourse anyway, he asked the farmer if he was willing to sit through the sermon, even though there was no one else to hear it. The farmer looked thoughtful for a few minutes, and then said, “If I went to feed my herd, and only one showed up, why, I’d feed him!” Delighted, the preacher launched forth and delivered the full two hour version of his prepared sermon, although he noticed that the farmer became glassy-eyed after about half-way through the sermon. After concluding his remarks, he rushed to find out what the farmer thought about the sermon. “ ‘Course,” replied the farmer after some thought, “if I was feeding only one cow, I wouldn’t give him the whole load of hay!”
And I hope that it doesn’t seem like I’m dumping the whole load on you, either . . .
‘Til later! | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:394
| | 10/27/2007 3:56 PM |
Alert | Mormon curriculum content and scheduling is uniform worldwide. That is, a congregation in Mongolia has the same course of study as any of Maricopa’s six congregations on any given Sunday. There are now more Mormons outside of North America than in North America, so maintaining purity of doctrine is just as much a concern to the Mormon Church as it was to Paul with the growth of the church among the Gentiles (as expressed in his epistles).
The discussion in this thread could give someone who doesn’t know much about Mormonism the impression that these deep, esoteric discussions are typical of normal, everyday talks from the pulpit and Sunday School classes, or that the Bible takes a back seat to the uniquely Mormon scripture. As others have posted on this thread, they are not. Members of the congregation are invited to prepare talks on a broad range of gospel topics; Sunday School manuals rotate coverage among the Old Testament/Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, New Testament, and the Book of Mormon. The congregations have just received their manuals for next year (Book of Mormon), and are finishing with the New Testament this year.
Mormons also don’t act differently when they think they are being observed by non-Mormon Christian critics (“quick, the Christians are coming, put everything away and make sure there’s lots of Jesus talk!”). We would love for any one of you to “come and see” for yourselves (John 1:38-39) what our meetings are like and how they are conducted.
All manuals are online; here are links to the English language Sunday School manuals, rotated yearly. If you’re curious as to what’s in a real, live Mormon manual, please look through them.
Old Testament: http://tinyurl.com/3xokwq
Doctrine and Covenants: http://tinyurl.com/2oq6rk
New Testament: http://tinyurl.com/3755sp (Tomorrow’s lesson is Lesson #40, “I Can Do All Things Through Christ.”)
Book of Mormon: http://tinyurl.com/3afjm4 | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:394
| | 10/27/2007 3:59 PM |
Alert | There are some considerations that should be pointed out in this and all other discussions between Mormons and interested non-Mormons (whether that interest stems from an openness to Mormonism, concern that Mormonism leads people away from God, or simply interest and intrigue in general).
How many distinct Christian churches/sects are there today? Despite sharing belief in the Bible, regardless of accepted translations, how many doctrinal differences are there (great and small) between and among sects? Within Christianity, there are three main divisions:
1. Catholicism — Claims an unbroken line of authority from Jesus Christ to the present.
2. Protestantism — Claims that God inspired men to reform extant Christianity.
3. Mormonism — Claims that God’s church and the authority to act in God’s name had to be completely restored by revelation and angelic ministry. A reformation or protest against current Christianity was not enough.
With the many differences between Christian sects, theologies, and interpretations, Mormonism claims additional witnesses that authoritatively clarify these differences, *IF* its claims are true. Just as a thin board nailed to a wall with one nail can be turned to any position in a 360 degree circle, the multiplicity of Christian disciplines and sects derive a multiplicity of doctrines and emphases from the same Bible. If one secures the board with a second, or better yet, multiple nails, the board’s position is clear and immovable. Mormonism claims that God did exactly this through companion scripture to the Bible as part of the restoration of His church, authority, and gospel: the Book of Mormon (translation of record of His prophets in the Western Hemisphere), Doctrine and Covenants (revelations to Joseph Smith and successors up through 1978), and Pearl of Great Price (collection of selected large sections of Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible; Joseph Smith’s 1838 history; and the Book of Abraham, a translation of Egyptian papyri acquired by the Church in the 1830s). These four “standard works” and accepted and authoritative utterances by Mormon leaders build the Mormon corpus of “scripture.”
Much of the give-and-take in this and other discussions between Mormons and interested or critical/skeptical non-Mormons depends on a correct understanding of Mormon scripture. Mormon doctrine is determined by the combined picture of *ALL* the data points (i.e., the totality of what Mormons accept as scripture, explained above). Critics (such as joe_2007 on that thread he started a few weeks ago) often try to undermine Mormons’ faith in the Book of Mormon, for example, by pointing out that it doesn’t contain a number of vital doctrines (temple, priesthood, three degrees of glory, etc.) while claiming to contain the “fulness of the gospel.” These critics are then frustrated when Mormons point out that this “fulness of the gospel” doesn’t refer to all aspects of the restored gospel, it refers to the way Jesus Christ wrought for our return back into His presence (faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, the reception of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, atonement and resurrection). The Book of Mormon itself, early on in its translation, foretold the coming forth of “other books” in addition to the Bible and Book of Mormon (both of which are foretold in 1 Nephi 13) “unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true” (1 Nephi 13:39). The next verse states: “These last records [i.e., printed revelation to follow the Book of Mormon]. . . shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved” (1 Nephi 13:40). Later in the translation, the Book of Mormon states that “whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these” (Mormon 8:12). In other words, the Book of Mormon itself foretold that “greater things than” the Book of Mormon were to come forth unto those who would accept it.
As an aside, aren’t critics forced to claim that the young Joseph Smith, years before the Book of Mormon was even published, was already laying plans for other books to follow? Given the background and circumstances, isn’t this a remarkable claim for those who ascribe a human origin for the Book of Mormon, especially since the publishing and disseminating of the Book of Mormon itself was so improbable at the time?
The point to all of the above is that Mormons have a much broader corpus of scripture, so Bible proof-texting is not an effective approach to undermining their belief. In the case of the primary topic of this thread, the fulness of Mormon scripture explains that God’s eternal nature has to do with the eternity of His being, which He shares with all of us as well (as posted already, our intelligences are also eternal, without beginning or end, and not created. If and when any of us attain godhood, we will likewise be “from everlasting to everlasting,” etc.). | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:394
| | 10/27/2007 4:25 PM |
Alert | Jason: "He created them to be perfect and by their own choice they left that perfection. Adam sinned by his own free will. Just because God allows Adam to do that says nothing about God's character. Another false dichotomy, to say that if God allows Adam to sin God is either not all powerful or malevolent."
moinmoin: But if He created them (out of nothing, I might add) to be “perfect,” and they end up not being perfect, doesn’t this call His omniscience or omnipotence into question? Did He know they would do what they did and choose what they chose? Were they predestined to do this? I agree that we have full freedom to choose to obey or disobey God, that we have full moral agency, but my Mormonism provides a theological framework for that. Learning from our own experience to discern good from evil and choosing good (and applying Christ’s atonement when we make mistakes) is essential to our eternal growth and development, and is a primary purpose for God placing us on this earth. I commend you for your belief in the agency of man, but I don’t see how you can given your views on God. Non-Mormon theologians have wrestled with the Problem of Evil for centuries without being any closer to a resolution.
Jason: "But you subscribe to that argument, hence your closing paragraph that says you think Mormonism has the best interpretation. How can you subscribe to a line of thinking with such a fatally flawed premise?"
Mormonism doesn't have to grapple with what you describe as a "false dichotomy," because it rejects creatio ex nihilo. The existence of evil in the universe doesn't create problems for us; for you, there is no getting around the fact that He created it. He had to have, since according to you He created absolutely everything, in His infinite foreknowledge and omnipotence, that was, is, or will be out of nothing. There was nothing before He created it, and He created everything to be exactly what he wanted it to be. Didn't He?
Jason: "It would be contrary to both Christian and Mormon teachings to say He is knowable. Or do you reject Romans 3:11?
"There is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God."
moinmoin: Didn't Jesus say that "this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3)? I agree with you and Paul that full knowledge of God will not be attained until the hereafter, but you have to admit that the convoluted explanations of the trinity, together with their analogies, don't explain God very well to us mortals on earth. Proponents of the trinity inevitably fall back on the "it's a great mystery that we can't really explain" answer. I don't think this type of explanation is what Paul or Jesus were getting at. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/29/2007 2:23 PM |
Alert | moinmoin: But if He created them (out of nothing, I might add) to be “perfect,” and they end up not being perfect, doesn’t this call His omniscience or omnipotence into question?
Not at all. He created them with the free will to love Him without being forced to. Do parents stop having kids, even though they know that their children will have preventable accidents?
The existence of evil in the universe doesn't create problems for us; for you, there is no getting around the fact that He created it.
In Genesis, God declared everything good. The fall happened when man, out of his free will, disobeyed God. God did not decide to introduce evil, man did.
Again we go back to the fact that your conclusion relies on the false dichotomy that either God didn't create evil or God is not omnipotent. God is omnipotent and didn't create evil in the Calvinist view. It is a perfectly logical viewpoint. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/31/2007 12:41 AM |
Alert | | The book of Job was brought up in another thread, which got me thinking. Moinmoin's explanation is that because of the way Mormon's explain things, they don't have to deal with the problem of evil. But in their explanation God is still omnipotent even though He didn't create everything. So how is God not directly responsible for the evil that came upon Job? He had the power to stop it but did not, so by the reasoning posted by Moinmoin, he is not omnipotent or he is evil, right? Is there something I overlooked? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:394
| | 10/31/2007 1:41 PM |
Alert | Thanks for your responses, Jason!
The difference would be in the one instance, God created evil (because He created everything out of nothing, including the devil and those who followed him. Didn't He know what they were or would become when He created them? Or, were they anything but what He created them to be?). In the Book of Job, God allows Satan to afflict Job to the point of losing his family, wealth, and health. Everyone (who believes in God) agrees that God allows bad things to happen in life, and no one argues that God would have to prevent any kind of affliction, temptation, etc. or He is a big sham.
Saying that God is directly responsible for the existence of evil is much different than saying that God allows intelligences (including Satan) to exercise their agency, from whence evil emerges in life.
The "either . . . or" form of the Epicurean Dilemma did not fully lay out either the Problem of Evil or my views; hence, my explanation(s) that followed.
For those who believe in Calvinistic predestination, did God predestine our choices in life? Am I predestined to be a Mormon? | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 10/31/2007 6:19 PM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 10/31/2007 1:41 PM For those who believe in Calvinistic predestination, did God predestine our choices in life? Am I predestined to be a Mormon?
Good question!
What your future holds, I don't know, but if you are Mormon until your death, I will say....Yes, because:
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
We see in verse 21, God is the one who makes the creatures to worship him(vessel unto honor) and God is the one who makes creatures fitted for destruction(vs 21 and 22) to make his power known.
A question I would ask you is, is there anybody believing in something that is outside of God's authority? What I mean is this, Does God say, "man I sure wish I had more control over so and so, so they would believe in me"? If you could, please answer with scripture so I can understand where you are coming from.
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Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/31/2007 7:10 PM |
Alert | | I don't necessarily think that is saying that God makes every single choice in your life. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 10/31/2007 7:17 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/31/2007 7:10 PM
I don't necessarily think that is saying that God makes every single choice in your life.
No, that was more in reference to him/her being Mormon until death.
However, there are other verses that shows God's complete sovereignty:
Even the roll of the dice is decided by God:
Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
Our Good works are from God before the world began:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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