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| | Author | Messages | |
Jason
Posts:3378
 | | 10/24/2007 10:04 PM |
 Alert | | Would Mormons characterize God as immutable? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | qwerty
Posts:135
| | 10/25/2007 6:37 AM |
Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 10/24/2007 2:50 PM Posted By love@hm on 10/24/2007 2:38 PM
D&C 132:19- 20 - And again, verily I say unto you, if a many marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them - Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths - then shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood,and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
(20)Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are suject unto them. then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
Obviously, there is a source to show we believe we can become gods. . .
Whoa!
I like to think of it in terms of how God has setup the Family unit. We know that we are created in the image of God and believe that He is our literal Father (created our spirits and a body for Adam and Eve). Because we are created in the image of God, that alone, in a way, makes us God-like or like-God. As our Father, why wouldn't God provide a way (Christ's atonement and resurrection) for us to become like Him. Much like our children can grow up to become Fathers and Mothers. God will ALWAYS be our Father (and our God), much like I will always be the Father of my children. But my children can still become like my wife and I, Fathers and Mothers. That's how I look at it anyway. | | | |
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| | tajh
Posts:32
| | 10/25/2007 7:58 AM |
Alert |
EEE - thank you for quoting scripture, that makes it easier to put in place!
Qwerty, I understand where you're coming from, but I have taken the following quote that is posted on this thread from the BOM:
20)Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are suject unto them. then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
So, it does seem to me, being a layman (sp?) that the BOM is in fact stating that Mormons believe that man can become a god - maybe not the God, but none the less - a god.
How can that be if God himself says that he is the one, the only, there are NO other Gods and never will be?
I guess these are probably questions that people have been asking Mormons to clarify for a long time... | |
Whether your riches greater than mine,
your mind wiser than mine;
you are not above nor below
I am your neighbor, I am equal.
-Me | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:394
| | 10/25/2007 8:13 AM |
Alert | tajh:
I tried to explain this in my post opening this thread. Do the explanations from Orson Pratt (nineteenth century Mormon apostle) help clarify this? | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/25/2007 9:22 AM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 10/25/2007 8:13 AM
tajh:
I tried to explain this in my post opening this thread. Do the explanations from Orson Pratt (nineteenth century Mormon apostle) help clarify this?
So Mormons would not characterize God as immutable? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | tajh
Posts:32
| | 10/25/2007 9:42 AM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 10/25/2007 8:13 AM
tajh:
I tried to explain this in my post opening this thread. Do the explanations from Orson Pratt (nineteenth century Mormon apostle) help clarify this?
ok, ok, you caught me. I have a slight problem with ADD (that's my excuse anyway) and I skimmed much of it. Mostly because it would have taken me too much time to go through word for word. Anyway, in respect to your post and the discussion - I read through it. I think I understand what it says, but I think it makes the argument worse.
Other worlds? WHAT?
This is how I read it:
-there is one God, known also as Christ and the Holy Spirit.
- However, there will be a lesser god of each world whom everyone in that world will worship, but yet still worship God Almighty - as their #1.
-But, they are not necessarily gods as they are 'god like'... ???
Did I get it right? If not, please correct me. I'm not trying to be a snot. I am really trying to understand. | |
Whether your riches greater than mine,
your mind wiser than mine;
you are not above nor below
I am your neighbor, I am equal.
-Me | |
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|  | tajh
Posts:32
| | 10/25/2007 9:44 AM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/24/2007 10:04 PM
Would Mormons characterize God as immutable?
jason, I don't know what that word means. lol. I tried my handy dictionary.com and it can't find a match... what does it mean? | |
Whether your riches greater than mine,
your mind wiser than mine;
you are not above nor below
I am your neighbor, I am equal.
-Me | |
|
| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/25/2007 10:12 AM |
Alert | Posted By tajh on 10/25/2007 9:44 AM Posted By Jason on 10/24/2007 10:04 PM
Would Mormons characterize God as immutable? jason, I don't know what that word means. lol. I tried my handy dictionary.com and it can't find a match... what does it mean?
im·mu·ta·ble
adj.
Not subject or susceptible to change.
I'm going somewhere with this, but I need to know moinmoin's answer before my direction will be clear...  | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:477
| | 10/25/2007 10:27 AM |
Alert | tajh - I will leave most of what you said to others - I would make mud thicker.
However, I wanted to point out. We believe God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost to make up the godhead. They are one in mind (thought), and one in purpose, (they want the same, they feel the same, etc) We do not believe they are the SAME PERSON. We believe Jesus Christ to be the literal son of God the Father. Who we also believe has body of flesh and bone. They are seperate entities. The Holy Spirit, has no body, as he is a comforter to the world -
Jason, I think you already know the answer to this. We believe God to be unchangeable in purpose. His plan for His children does not change. The promises to His children do not change. However, we have modern-day prophets who receive revelation which is meant specifically for us now. We are children of God, who progress in our spiritual needs and desires. There are times when the law of God is 'updated' so to speak. That is to say, we are ready for a higher law, or need a lesser law. The law of Moses required sacrafice of live lambs. . . now we believe in the sacrafice of 10% of our increase - which is NOT an unblemished lamb.
As LDS, we believe we are living our day to day life with a lesser law of sacrafice, which is a law of tithing. However, we believe the higher law to be called the Law of Consecration - we live this to an extent, in that we promise to give to the Lord all that he asks of us - time, tithes, etc. If the bishop came and asked me to give the Lord my furniture for use in the Lord's kingdom - I have promised to do so. . . Bishops do not ask for peoples furniture, but it is an example. In time, when we are ready (probably the next life if I had to guess) we will realize, all things are given of God and all things are to be used to uplift and exemplify His Kingdom - We will not have our selfish desires, and will be truly humble before the Lord, at this time we will be ready to live what *I* consider to be the FULL Law of Consecration.
Basically, the purpose of God does not change, but what is expected - has, and can change.
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 10/25/2007 10:35 AM |
Alert | Posted By love@hm on 10/25/2007 10:27 AM
The law of Moses required sacrafice of live lambs. . . now we believe in the sacrafice of 10% of our increase - which is NOT an unblemished lamb.
Where does the sacrifice of Christ come into play? What does propitiation mean to a Mormon? What does Justified mean to a Mormon? Why do you need to sacrifice 10% of anything when Christ paid the debt on the Cross?
According to scriptures, we don't have to sacrifice animals any more because Christ was the Ultimate Sacrifice. Thus Christ words on the cross "It is Finished"
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Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | tajh
Posts:32
| | 10/25/2007 10:36 AM |
Alert | Posted By love@hm on 10/25/2007 10:27 AM
tajh - I will leave most of what you said to others - I would make mud thicker.
However, I wanted to point out. We believe God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost to make up the godhead. They are one in mind (thought), and one in purpose, (they want the same, they feel the same, etc) We do not believe they are the SAME PERSON. We believe Jesus Christ to be the literal son of God the Father. Who we also believe has body of flesh and bone. They are seperate entities. The Holy Spirit, has no body, as he is a comforter to the world -
Jason, I think you already know the answer to this. We believe God to be unchangeable in purpose. His plan for His children does not change. The promises to His children do not change. However, we have modern-day prophets who receive revelation which is meant specifically for us now. We are children of God, who progress in our spiritual needs and desires. There are times when the law of God is 'updated' so to speak. That is to say, we are ready for a higher law, or need a lesser law. The law of Moses required sacrafice of live lambs. . . now we believe in the sacrafice of 10% of our increase - which is NOT an unblemished lamb.
As LDS, we believe we are living our day to day life with a lesser law of sacrafice, which is a law of tithing. However, we believe the higher law to be called the Law of Consecration - we live this to an extent, in that we promise to give to the Lord all that he asks of us - time, tithes, etc. If the bishop came and asked me to give the Lord my furniture for use in the Lord's kingdom - I have promised to do so. . . Bishops do not ask for peoples furniture, but it is an example. In time, when we are ready (probably the next life if I had to guess) we will realize, all things are given of God and all things are to be used to uplift and exemplify His Kingdom - We will not have our selfish desires, and will be truly humble before the Lord, at this time we will be ready to live what *I* consider to be the FULL Law of Consecration.
Basically, the purpose of God does not change, but what is expected - has, and can change.
totally off the subject - what if you can't afford to give 10% tithings? I know a lot of non-mormon Christians who do this, but it is because they want to. From what I understand it's required?
| |
Whether your riches greater than mine,
your mind wiser than mine;
you are not above nor below
I am your neighbor, I am equal.
-Me | |
|
| | tajh
Posts:32
| | 10/25/2007 10:38 AM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 10/25/2007 10:35 AM Posted By love@hm on 10/25/2007 10:27 AM
The law of Moses required sacrafice of live lambs. . . now we believe in the sacrafice of 10% of our increase - which is NOT an unblemished lamb.
Where does the sacrifice of Christ come into play? What does propitiation mean to a Mormon? What does Justified mean to a Mormon? Why do you need to sacrifice 10% of anything when Christ paid the debt on the Cross? According to scriptures, we don't have to sacrifice animals any more because Christ was the Ultimate Sacrifice. Thus Christ words on the cross "It is Finished"
Man, I just have to commend your wisdom.
| |
Whether your riches greater than mine,
your mind wiser than mine;
you are not above nor below
I am your neighbor, I am equal.
-Me | |
|
| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/25/2007 11:31 AM |
Alert | Jason, I think you already know the answer to this. We believe God to be unchangeable in purpose. His plan for His children does not change. The promises to His children do not change. However, we have modern-day prophets who receive revelation which is meant specifically for us now. We are children of God, who progress in our spiritual needs and desires. There are times when the law of God is 'updated' so to speak. That is to say, we are ready for a higher law, or need a lesser law. The law of Moses required sacrafice of live lambs. . . now we believe in the sacrafice of 10% of our increase - which is NOT an unblemished lamb.
That wasn't what I asked for. Is God Himself immutable? That's what I was asking for.
But now that you bring it up...If Christ is perfect and what He said and did is perfect, why do you feel it is OK to alter that? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | photogirl
Posts:18
| | 10/25/2007 11:39 AM |
Alert | Here is a passage I found in my studies. If you would like to read the entire talk in which this was given, here is the link, http://lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=a35c94bf3938b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
The Apostle Paul testified that Christ was the “end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” (Rom. 10:4.) Lehi echoed that doctrine, explaining that the Savior’s sacrifice answers the end of the law for “those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.” (2 Ne. 2:7.)
Likewise, the Apostle John spoke of Jesus as the “propitiation for our sins.” (1 Jn. 4:10.) Alma’s witness explains this propitiation, using the synonym appease: “And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.” (Alma 42:15.)
Amulek amplified the concept by teaching that Jesus’ sacrifice initiated a plan of mercy that would overpower justice and enable us to have faith to repent. In this way, mercy can satisfy justice for the repentant, while those who exercise no faith unto repentance are exposed to all the demands of justice. (See Alma 34:14–16.)
Paul recorded that death and sin entered the world through Adam, and life entered the world through Christ. Lehi confirmed that doctrine by discussing the conditions before and after the Fall, the necessity of opposition, the wisdom of Adam’s fall, our freedom to choose between two enticing forces, the role of Satan, and Jesus’ role as the great mediator. (See 2 Ne. 2.)
Lehi, Jacob, Abinadi, Alma, Benjamin, Aaron, Amulek, Ammon—all spoke of the Fall and the Atonement. Their masterful discourses are invaluable, tying the doctrines of salvation together into what Amulek terms “the great plan of the Eternal God.” (Alma 34:9.)
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| | love@hm
Posts:477
| | 10/25/2007 12:42 PM |
Alert | Holy craziness - was posting and was kicked OFF - so not right, when I have so many other things I should be doing!
Well, other answers will come - I have to go!
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| | tajh
Posts:32
| | 10/25/2007 2:51 PM |
Alert | I just, I don't know about all this. I commend you guys' (LDS) and your faith, or rather I should say your strong belief in your faith. Would it be too much to ask to say 'we've heard you, now hear us?' Meaning that you have a rebuttle for every comment or question (which is great) yet has none of this made you think twice? I don't mean to be a jerk (that should just be my disclaimer in all of these) and I'm not trying to insult you in anyway. I just want to know "do you not see the stark differences in what the Bible says is true and the contradictions in your faith?" I almost see it as someone saying 'well, we didn't really like that part of the Bible, it doesn't exactly fit our needs, so we think this is what it's saying"
It seems that maybe it's a little egotistical to say "the Bible wasn't good enough so we'll recreate one, and in that create our own religion"
Why do no other Christian religions have a separate doctrine to follow? I think it's because there was only supposed to be ONE.
-Again, I am not trying to offend, so if you read this in a negative tone, that's not how I meant it. | |
Whether your riches greater than mine,
your mind wiser than mine;
you are not above nor below
I am your neighbor, I am equal.
-Me | |
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| | Java Lover
Posts:0
| | 10/25/2007 4:00 PM |
Alert | Posted By tajh on 10/25/2007 2:51 PM
I just want to know "do you not see the stark differences in what the Bible says is true and the contradictions in your faith?" I almost see it as someone saying 'well, we didn't really like that part of the Bible, it doesn't exactly fit our needs, so we think this is what it's saying"
Seams like we were just talking about this...  | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:477
| | 10/25/2007 6:14 PM |
Alert | I just posted a big long thing on the God having a body on the other thread, so don't have time here again, but I wanted to respond to tajh.
I cannot begin to tell you the strengthening of my testimony in my OWN faith and my religion as I have studied and read both the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. I have felt so much peace, so much joy, so much gratefulness and love for the Savior I cannot begin to write the words to explain. The Spirit has accompanied me throughout this discussion - truly lending itself and testifying to the truthfulness of what I believe.
On the other thread I read every reference that was given directly to me concerning the trinity. In every single scripture I found testimony of Christ the Savior and God the Eternal Father being physical beings with bodies. I received testimony of the atonement and the seperateness of their personages. In reading these scriptures, I read one item from the JST. It was the only footnote which took me from the KJ Bible.
Our rebuttles are meant as explanations - not arguements. Every sect of Christianity employs different meanings to different scriptures. We are not the only ones to interpret things differently - although, I suppose we are MORE different in a lot of how we interpret. We are excited about our religion. We love it. It is more than a belief for us, it is a way of life.
Have you thought twice? If you are sincerely happy in your religion, if you believe it with all your heart, mind and spirit, if you KNOW with all your being that your church is true - If the spirit has testified to you that what you believe is completely true - with no question, with no wabbling then I sincerely hope you have not thought twice, but that your testimony has been strengthened.
Honestly no, I have not even once thought twice. I have thought, I should research that, or I need more clarification. But not once have I questioned whether what I believe is true. I have had very personal experiences which have given me a strong testimony that The Church of Jesus Christ is right, that it is the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I have listened as Joseph Smith has been slandered, I have researched with questions about him personally when information I was not aware of came to my knowledge. I have cried because so many people seem to believe I have lost my way, when I know I haven't. I have been saddened when I have been considered weird, crazy, uneducated, racist. I have cried for those who hate my religion. Not because of their actions toward me, but because of the hate they show MY God!
I have not thought twice because with all my heart I believe in the gospel taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I KNOW there is a living prophet on the earth today, that God speaks to him, that there is modern-day revelation. I know Joseph Smith saw God the Eternal Father and His son Jesus Christ in a grove of trees when he was only 14 yrs old. I know through the atonement of Jesus Christ I can gain exaltation. The spirit testifies this to me, and I cannot deny it.
If you believe in your religion in the same way I believe in mine, can you blame me for not thinking twice? I cannot blame you.
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/25/2007 6:21 PM |
Alert | But not once have I questioned whether what I believe is true.
You absolutely should:
1 Thessalonians 5:21
But examine all things; hold fast to what is good.
I do not believe anyone should believe in a religion without examining and testing everything about it.
I know Joseph Smith saw God the Eternal Father and His son Jesus Christ in a grove of trees when he was only 14 yrs old.
It's not the same Jesus Christ though. Why, why would God wait all those years to say, "you know, we ought to tell those humans that Bible, it's not quite correct..." | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | tajh
Posts:32
| | 10/25/2007 8:38 PM |
Alert | Posted By love@hm on 10/25/2007 6:14 PM
I just posted a big long thing on the God having a body on the other thread, so don't have time here again, but I wanted to respond to tajh.
I cannot begin to tell you the strengthening of my testimony in my OWN faith and my religion as I have studied and read both the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. I have felt so much peace, so much joy, so much gratefulness and love for the Savior I cannot begin to write the words to explain. The Spirit has accompanied me throughout this discussion - truly lending itself and testifying to the truthfulness of what I believe.
On the other thread I read every reference that was given directly to me concerning the trinity. In every single scripture I found testimony of Christ the Savior and God the Eternal Father being physical beings with bodies. I received testimony of the atonement and the seperateness of their personages. In reading these scriptures, I read one item from the JST. It was the only footnote which took me from the KJ Bible.
Our rebuttles are meant as explanations - not arguements. Every sect of Christianity employs different meanings to different scriptures. We are not the only ones to interpret things differently - although, I suppose we are MORE different in a lot of how we interpret. We are excited about our religion. We love it. It is more than a belief for us, it is a way of life.
Have you thought twice? If you are sincerely happy in your religion, if you believe it with all your heart, mind and spirit, if you KNOW with all your being that your church is true - If the spirit has testified to you that what you believe is completely true - with no question, with no wabbling then I sincerely hope you have not thought twice, but that your testimony has been strengthened.
Honestly no, I have not even once thought twice. I have thought, I should research that, or I need more clarification. But not once have I questioned whether what I believe is true. I have had very personal experiences which have given me a strong testimony that The Church of Jesus Christ is right, that it is the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I have listened as Joseph Smith has been slandered, I have researched with questions about him personally when information I was not aware of came to my knowledge. I have cried because so many people seem to believe I have lost my way, when I know I haven't. I have been saddened when I have been considered weird, crazy, uneducated, racist. I have cried for those who hate my religion. Not because of their actions toward me, but because of the hate they show MY God!
I have not thought twice because with all my heart I believe in the gospel taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I KNOW there is a living prophet on the earth today, that God speaks to him, that there is modern-day revelation. I know Joseph Smith saw God the Eternal Father and His son Jesus Christ in a grove of trees when he was only 14 yrs old. I know through the atonement of Jesus Christ I can gain exaltation. The spirit testifies this to me, and I cannot deny it.
If you believe in your religion in the same way I believe in mine, can you blame me for not thinking twice? I cannot blame you.
I have total respect of that, and of what you say and I guess more importantly HOW you say it. There are people on here (not specifically this thread) that are trying to pin hole you into saying something.
This is what I know for sure. The Holy Bible is my life, it is all I need. I am just as sure that the mormon doctrine is false as you are that it is correct. But, none the less, I will not judge or ridicule you. I ask questions of you only because I really want to understand the faith that I feel has grown like wildfires.
I guess and I mean no disrespect, with what I have read and what you and others have told me, it just seems a little bizarre. When you're born into it and it's all you know, that I can understand. I can't understand a Christian buying any of it. Other worlds, men turning into god like, different levels of heaven, etc. If you really sort it out that way it seems a bit strange. | |
Whether your riches greater than mine,
your mind wiser than mine;
you are not above nor below
I am your neighbor, I am equal.
-Me | |
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