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| | Author | Messages | |
moinmoin
Posts:414
 | | 10/23/2007 11:20 PM |
 Alert | I’m moving this particular discussion over from the “bipolar” thread, where it was asserted that:
“[There is] dead silence [among Mormons] every time I bring up Psalms 90:2 and quote Joseph Smith.
Psalms 90:2 is a well-worn proof-text held out as a silver bullet against Mormonism, since it declares that God is God “even from everlasting to everlasting.” Critics often use Isaiah 43:10 as a companion proof-text in claiming that Mormonism’s beliefs about God are unbiblical: “. . . before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” Since Mormonism teaches that God had a father and lived on an earth, critics think these passages are a slam-dunk, and regard Mormons as being in denial about them.
Before getting into an explanation of these particular passages, it is very important to point out that Mormonism uniquely rejects the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo, or “creation from nothing.” This is believed, as far as I know, by every other Christian sect outside of Mormonism. This doctrine holds that God, absolutely all-knowing and all-powerful, is the only eternally existing entity, and that He created absolutely everything from nothing.
Mormonism, on the other hand, teaches that all matter, both physical and spirit, is eternal and not created. Spirit and physical matter combined with “intelligence” comprise everything in the universe, and “intelligence” is likewise eternal and not created.
“Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth . . . Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence” (Doctrine and Covenants 93:23, 29-30)
Mormonism’s rejection of creatio ex nihilo gives it a tremendous advantage over the rest of Christianity in dealing with the “Problem of Evil,” or the “Epicurean Dilemma.” Given creation of absolutely everything out of nothing and a fully all-knowing, all-powerful God, the Epicurean Dilemma asks:
1. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent.
2. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
3. Is he both able and willing? Then how and why does evil exist?
But this doesn’t fully lay out the problem. The God insisted upon by those who insist that Psalms 90:2 is devastating to Mormonism created absolutely everybody, every man, woman, and child AND the devil and fallen angels. Wouldn’t it be the height of blasphemy to state that He created anybody to be anything less than He wanted them and foresaw them to be? Had He wanted them to be anything different from how He made them, He would have made them that way and not how He did. How then can God not be held directly responsible for every evil in life and the world?
Calvinistic predestination is the logical extension of this line of thinking, and the only possible response by those who wish to retain the “all-knowing + all-powerful + creatio ex nihilo” God. True free will cannot exist, since this would place volition outside of God’s purview. Every evil and good work, thought, and feeling was thus foreseen and predetermined by God, else He could not be all-powerful and all-knowing. But this still places the responsibility for evil squarely on God’s shoulders . . .
Mormonism’s doctrines of uncreated matter and intelligences make God’s acts of creation acts of divine organization rather than creation out of nothing. As there can be no good without evil (“For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so . . . righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad” 2 Nephi 2:11). Intelligence, eternal and uncreated, and spirit and physical matter form “things to act and things to be acted upon” (2 Nephi 2:13, 14), intelligences acting out their will. God reaches out to his offspring, man, but will never force or compel, as this would destroy the law of justice by which the intelligences honor and sustain Him and He “would cease to be God” (Alma 42:13). The ability of man to make his own choices and suffer the consequences, both good and bad, for those choices allows man to learn from his mistakes and choose to accept God’s plan. Many will knowingly and willfully reject this plan, but God is not responsible for the existence of evil.
With this as necessary background to the implications and ramifications of those who gleefully fling Psalms 90:2 and other passages at Mormons, how do Mormons respond to these charges? Mormon apostle Orson Pratt explained that the concept of “God” refers to a state of divinity that has always existed; hence, in that sense, there has always been God, since all Gods are unified:
“In one sense of the word, there are more Gods than one; and in another sense there is but one God. The Scriptures speak of more Gods than one . . . All these beings of course are one, the same as the Father and the Son are one. The Son is called God, and so is the Father, and in some places the Holy Ghost is called God. They are one in power, in wisdom, in knowledge, and in the inheritance of celestial glory; they are one in their works; they possess all things, and all things are subject to them; they act in unison; and if one has power to become the Father of spirits, so has another; if one God can propagate his species, and raise up spirits after his own image and likeness, and call them his sons and daughters, so can all other Gods that become like him, do the same thing; consequently, there will be many Fathers, and there will be many families, and many sons and daughters; and they will be the children of those glorified, celestial beings that are counted worthy to be Gods” (Journal of Discourses 1:56-57).
Elsewhere, Elder Pratt, commenting on criticisms about this, noted that there can be many Gods and at the same time one God:
“For instance, the world reads in the revelations we have received, that there are more Gods than one. This is something that does not immediately concern us; but yet opposers get up and contend against us, and prejudice the minds of congregations against the people of God, because they profess to believe . . . in a plurality of Gods . . . I [have] endeavored to . . . show [critics] wherein we believe in the plurality of Gods, and yet acknowledge only one God. I believe both of these principles with all my heart. I believe there is one only wise God, and I believe there is an immense number of Gods” (Journal of Discourses 2:58-59).
Surely, a trinitarian wouldn’t scoff at such reasoning; this forms the bulk of their attempts to explain the mystery of the trinity to confused non-initiates! ;-)
On Isaiah 43:10, Elder Pratt explained:
"But" inquires one, "how are you going to get along with the passage, in Isaiah, where the Lord declared that, 'There is no God before me, nor shall there be any after me?'" How can we believe this, when we believe in the revelation given through Joseph Smith, which says there are many Gods, and that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are Gods . . . Paul also speaks of the only wise God. Perhaps some may suppose that it is translated improperly. But you will find the same thing in the Book of Mormon, translated by the Urim and Thummim; the same things are also contained in the new translation of the book of Genesis, given to Moses, where the Lord declares that, "There is no God besides me." In these expressions, God has reference to the great principles of light and truth, or knowledge, and not to the tabernacles in which this knowledge may dwell; the tabernacles are many and without number, but the truth or knowledge which is often personified and called God, is one, being the same in all; God is one, being a unity, when represented by light, truth, wisdom, or knowledge; but when reference is made to the temples in which this knowledge dwells, the number of Gods is infinite. This explains the mystery . . . the attributes of Deity are one; and they constitute the one God that the Prophets speak of, and that the children of men in all worlds worship. One world has a personal God or Father, and the inhabitants thereof worship the attributes of that God, another world has another, and they worship His attributes, and besides Him there is no other; and when they worship Him they are at the same time worshipping the same attributes that dwell in all the personal Gods who fill immensity . . . And when we find the Father of Jesus Christ, we will worship Him, not the flesh and bones, but the attributes (Journal of Discourses 2:345-346).
Parallels from everyday life abound. Think of the chain of command in the military. While a soldier is aware of commanders that outrank his immediate commanding officer, as far as he’s concerned, his commanding officer is the one with whom he has to do (the lower a soldier’s rank, the more true this is!). While being aware of the existence, somewhere, of four star generals, a lowly soldier is only concerned with the commands of his commanding officer.
Joseph Smith reiterated this in the Sermon in the Grove shortly before his murder. Despite the doctrine of a plurality of gods that critics take issue with, “to us there is but one God:”
“Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many. I want to set it forth in a plain and simple manner; but to us there is but one God—that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all” ( History of the Church, 6:474)
As far as any difficulties presented to the Mormons by Psalms 90:2, I would say that the Mormons’ explanation and view of eternity and Godhood are in far better shape than sectarian Christianity's, especially in light of the Problem of Evil. | | | |
| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 10/24/2007 8:01 AM |
Alert | Calvinistic predestination is the logical extension of this line of thinking, and the only possible response by those who wish to retain the “all-knowing + all-powerful + creatio ex nihilo” God. True free will cannot exist, since this would place volition outside of God’s purview. Every evil and good work, thought, and feeling was thus foreseen and predetermined by God, else He could not be all-powerful and all-knowing. But this still places the responsibility for evil squarely on God’s shoulders . . .
You're correct the Calvinistic view is the most logical view possible. More importantly it is the most biblical. Since I am a Calvinist, your whole post becomes pointless, and you need to prove with scripture why the Calvinistic view is wrong. Your Mormon logic doesn't work:
It just can't be "A" so it must be "B"
So people won't get the wrong idea, I wanted to point out your description is a little off on what Calvinist believe, but I won't get to deep into that, unless it calls for it later on. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/24/2007 12:29 PM |
Alert | But this doesn’t fully lay out the problem. The God insisted upon by those who insist that Psalms 90:2 is devastating to Mormonism created absolutely everybody, every man, woman, and child AND the devil and fallen angels.
True, but He did not create them that way. By their choice they fell from their perfection. So you're going to say that...
2. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
False dichotomy. God is God and He is not malevolent no matter what He does. Human standards do not apply to God. Your whole argument falls apart from there...
“Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many.
It truly is the little things that can lead people astray. God has no chain of command, it is clearly stated that any other "gods" (notice, little 'g') are false idols and followers are to take orders directly from God and nowhere else, for He is "I am". | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/24/2007 12:38 PM |
Alert | Quote from Joseph Smith:
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute the idea..
This is in direct opposition to Psalm 90:2 (as well as countless other verses)! Forget the whole "ex niliho" argument, please dispel this directly. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | tajh
Posts:32
| | 10/24/2007 12:43 PM |
Alert | Forgive me if I am interrupting, but a thought occured to me while reading...
and this is an innocent question, I'm not trying to be sarcastic or make you eat your words later on...
but if God were once man, then does that mean according to Mormon beliefs that more men could become gods? | |
Whether your riches greater than mine,
your mind wiser than mine;
you are not above nor below
I am your neighbor, I am equal.
-Me | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
|
| 10/24/2007 12:50 PM |
Alert | but if God were once man, then does that mean according to Mormon beliefs that more men could become gods?
That seems to be what they're saying. Even when there is direct scripture to say otherwise, they seem to evoke the "mistranslation" or "future revelation" arguments as if they were valid extensions to the faith. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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|  | tajh
Posts:32
| | 10/24/2007 1:05 PM |
Alert | | Hm. I don't know much about the LDS faith, I think the most I know is from what I read on here. lol. Interesting. | |
Whether your riches greater than mine,
your mind wiser than mine;
you are not above nor below
I am your neighbor, I am equal.
-Me | |
|
| | Bionicbunny
Posts:596
| | 10/24/2007 1:31 PM |
Alert | Posted By tajh on 10/24/2007 12:43 PM
Forgive me if I am interrupting, but a thought occured to me while reading...
and this is an innocent question, I'm not trying to be sarcastic or make you eat your words later on...
but if God were once man, then does that mean according to Mormon beliefs that more men could become gods?
I have heard the same tajh. Once a man dies, he takes "a" wife (not necessarily the one he is married to on earth), gets his own planet and becomes god of that planet. Now if he decides not to take the wife he is married to on earth, she goes to "hell".
Anyone, correct me if I am wrong please. | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 10/24/2007 1:36 PM |
Alert | tajh, much of the information you will receive here is ABOVE and BEYOND what most people with curiosities need. Also, much of it is skewed by people with misunderstandings concerning what the teachings are. Many know the words, but they do not understand the gospel.
If you want better info - www.mormon.org is a great source. It deals with the basics not the deep doctrine that many members have to study and dive into in order to gain a full knowledge of the teachings. Honestly, this discussion is touched on for about 3 minutes a year in our mtgs, because it simply is NOT the focus of our religion - that would be Christ.
As for Mormons believing we will become gods. The doctrine I am aware of states as we become perfected in Christ, and reach the Highest Degree of Glory - which is not just the Celestial Kingdom - but the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom that we may become LIKE GOD. God will always be the supreme being. The ONE god. We will always worship Him, we strive to live with Him. Because we believe there are other worlds which have been created, it is not difficult to see where the line is that members would believe the possiblity of creating our own worlds. I'm certain others will be able to provide quotes,etc.
Me. I do not focus on this. I see it as a possiblity, but do not worry about attaining the creating powers, or how many gods there may or may not be. As it has been previously stated, we worship ONE God. Whether there are others makes no difference, as we are to concern ourselves only with the ONE -
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| | moinmoin
Posts:414
| | 10/24/2007 1:39 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/24/2007 12:29 PM But this doesn’t fully lay out the problem. The God insisted upon by those who insist that Psalms 90:2 is devastating to Mormonism created absolutely everybody, every man, woman, and child AND the devil and fallen angels. True, but He did not create them that way. By their choice they fell from their perfection. So you're going to say that... 2. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. False dichotomy. God is God and He is not malevolent no matter what He does. Human standards do not apply to God. Your whole argument falls apart from there... “Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many. It truly is the little things that can lead people astray. God has no chain of command, it is clearly stated that any other "gods" (notice, little 'g') are false idols and followers are to take orders directly from God and nowhere else, for He is "I am".
How can you say He didn't create them "that way?" According to your view, He created them out of nothing, and in His omniscience and omnipotence, how can you say that He created anything or anybody to be anything less than exactly what He wanted and foresaw them to be?
The "false dichotomy" isn't my words; I was summing up the basic argument as the Problem of Evil has been wrestled with over the years. But if He's all-powerful and all-knowing and created everything out of nothing, then I don't see how one can simply play the "human rules don't apply to God" card. On this board, Mormons have been castigated for perceived reticence in dealing with tough questions. Well, that's a two-edged sword, isn't it? You can't just throw up your hands and say, "It's a great mystery; god is in essence unknowable."
I don't think your exegesis of Paul speaking of Lords many and gods many is accurate. While I have heard sectarian critics insist that he's talking of heathen lords and gods (as they must), I don't know that this is borne out by either the context or the text itself.
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| | tajh
Posts:32
| | 10/24/2007 1:44 PM |
Alert | Posted By love@hm on 10/24/2007 1:36 PM
tajh, much of the information you will receive here is ABOVE and BEYOND what most people with curiosities need. Also, much of it is skewed by people with misunderstandings concerning what the teachings are. Many know the words, but they do not understand the gospel.
If you want better info - www.mormon.org is a great source. It deals with the basics not the deep doctrine that many members have to study and dive into in order to gain a full knowledge of the teachings. Honestly, this discussion is touched on for about 3 minutes a year in our mtgs, because it simply is NOT the focus of our religion - that would be Christ.
As for Mormons believing we will become gods. The doctrine I am aware of states as we become perfected in Christ, and reach the Highest Degree of Glory - which is not just the Celestial Kingdom - but the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom that we may become LIKE GOD. God will always be the supreme being. The ONE god. We will always worship Him, we strive to live with Him. Because we believe there are other worlds which have been created, it is not difficult to see where the line is that members would believe the possiblity of creating our own worlds. I'm certain others will be able to provide quotes,etc.
Me. I do not focus on this. I see it as a possiblity, but do not worry about attaining the creating powers, or how many gods there may or may not be. As it has been previously stated, we worship ONE God. Whether there are others makes no difference, as we are to concern ourselves only with the ONE -
Hmmm. Thanks for the info. I guess I do know more about it than I thought. What you wrote kind of sparked my memory. The last company I worked for was about 80% LDS, so I got some info from them, but not much as it's not appropriate at work. I know LDS isn't for me, but thank you for sharing.
| |
Whether your riches greater than mine,
your mind wiser than mine;
you are not above nor below
I am your neighbor, I am equal.
-Me | |
|
| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 10/24/2007 1:51 PM |
Alert | Bionicbunny - you are wrong.
We believe through the covenants we make in the temple we can be eternal families. We are sealed together as a family at marriage, so can be together in the Celestial Kingdom. Being sealed gives us the opportunity to have this blessing, however, we still have to follows God's commandments, work and strive to become perfected in order to have this blessing.
Our progression is eternal - which means, we can continue to work on becoming perfect after we die. We believe in an outer-darkness (hell) which is meant for murders and false prophets and those who HAVE KNOWN the Savior and have turned away from Him, this is more than the person who has been a member or read the scriptures and believed and then decide they don't really believe and leave. This is talking about the person who has been as a prophet - someone who HAS KNOWN the Savior in a more personal (not in person, necessarily) way.
The general population will continue to some degree of heaven.
In theory, a couple can end up in different degrees of glory (heaven) - however, it is generally believed a couple has similar enough spiritual levels that they would be in the same kingdom. If we are not in the Celestial Kingdom - which we are told will actually be very few people, we will be able to continue to work, but will not be 'together' - I put quotes, because I do believe families work with each other to help with progression in the after-life. I don't just believe it, but I have personal experiences which are very sacred and not to be shared, which TELLS me this is true. However, I do not know 'living arrangements' so to speak.
If a one or the other spouse reaches the Celestial Kingdom w/o the other, they still have the right to those blessings. They have made those covenants, and kept their promises, and they can have those blessings. It is my understanding God has not revealed the ins and outs of what happens when the wife reaches the Celestial Kingdom w/o her husband.
. HOWEVER, I can guarantee the husband's original wife would never be sent to hell, but instead - would continue to work and strive to gain Celestial Glory - where she would join her husband.
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| | tajh
Posts:32
| | 10/24/2007 1:56 PM |
Alert | Posted By love@hm on 10/24/2007 1:51 PM
Bionicbunny - you are wrong.
We believe through the covenants we make in the temple we can be eternal families. We are sealed together as a family at marriage, so can be together in the Celestial Kingdom. Being sealed gives us the opportunity to have this blessing, however, we still have to follows God's commandments, work and strive to become perfected in order to have this blessing.
Our progression is eternal - which means, we can continue to work on becoming perfect after we die. We believe in an outer-darkness (hell) which is meant for murders and false prophets and those who HAVE KNOWN the Savior and have turned away from Him, this is more than the person who has been a member or read the scriptures and believed and then decide they don't really believe and leave. This is talking about the person who has been as a prophet - someone who HAS KNOWN the Savior in a more personal (not in person, necessarily) way.
The general population will continue to some degree of heaven.
In theory, a couple can end up in different degrees of glory (heaven) - however, it is generally believed a couple has similar enough spiritual levels that they would be in the same kingdom. If we are not in the Celestial Kingdom - which we are told will actually be very few people, we will be able to continue to work, but will not be 'together' - I put quotes, because I do believe families work with each other to help with progression in the after-life. I don't just believe it, but I have personal experiences which are very scared and not to be shared, which TELLS me this is true. However, I do not know 'living arrangements' so to speak.
If a one or the other spouse reaches the Celestial Kingdom w/o the other, they still have the right to those blessings. They have made those covenants, and kept their promises, and they can have those blessings. It is my understanding God has not revealed the ins and outs of what happens when the wife reaches the Celestial Kingdom w/o her husband.
. HOWEVER, I can guarantee the husband's original wife would never be sent to hell, but instead - would continue to work and strive to gain Celestial Glory - where she would join her husband.
wow. That really blows my mind. That made me kind of sad... so in your religion, if hubbie is sent to a higher level of heaven, then the wife can work her way up to his level? Not sure if I understand it correctly
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Whether your riches greater than mine,
your mind wiser than mine;
you are not above nor below
I am your neighbor, I am equal.
-Me | |
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| | Java Lover
Posts:0
| | 10/24/2007 2:06 PM |
Alert | Question, so do all LDS 'churches' focus on different doctrines?
I know when the missionaries came to my door they told me all about the levels of the celestial kingdom, praying dead people into heaven and becoming a god, not LIKE God, but A god.
If it's true that all focus on different things, then how can the LDS church be unified?
Just confused here I guess, but then again I suppose it's not really a big deal.  | | | |
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| | tajh
Posts:32
| | 10/24/2007 2:10 PM |
Alert | Posted By Java Lover on 10/24/2007 2:06 PM Question, so do all LDS 'churches' focus on different doctrines? I know when the missionaries came to my door they told me all about the levels of the celestial kingdom, praying dead people into heaven and becoming a god, not LIKE God, but A god. If it's true that all focus on different things, then how can the LDS church be unified? Just confused here I guess, but then again I suppose it's not really a big deal.
I am absolutely fascinated by this. Again, I know it's not right for me, but I find it really interesting. I think I will check out the web site, just for knowledge... besides, it's good to be open to learning about other religions, or so I think anyway. | |
Whether your riches greater than mine,
your mind wiser than mine;
you are not above nor below
I am your neighbor, I am equal.
-Me | |
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| | Java Lover
Posts:0
| | 10/24/2007 2:22 PM |
Alert | I'm not so much fascinated as trying to understand individual people. That is why I asked what I did because I think there are a lot of LDS people out there that either don't know/believe what the LDS really is and the other people are trying to 'smoke and mirror' people into seeing only what they want people to see.
I have done my research on the doctrine and LDS history. I know what info is out there, but again I think there are a lot of LDS people that are not really LDS. That really makes no sense but I'll not confuse the issue further. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/24/2007 2:23 PM |
Alert | How can you say He didn't create them "that way?" According to your view, He created them out of nothing, and in His omniscience and omnipotence, how can you say that He created anything or anybody to be anything less than exactly what He wanted and foresaw them to be?
He created them to be perfect and by their own choice they left that perfection. Adam sinned by his own free will. Just because God allows Adam to do that says nothing about God's character. Another false dichotomy, to say that if God allows Adam to sin God is either not all powerful or malevolent.
The "false dichotomy" isn't my words; I was summing up the basic argument as the Problem of Evil has been wrestled with over the years.
But you subscribe to that argument, hence your closing paragraph that says you think Mormonism has the best interpretation. How can you subscribe to a line of thinking with such a fatally flawed premise?
But if He's all-powerful and all-knowing and created everything out of nothing, then I don't see how one can simply play the "human rules don't apply to God" card. On this board, Mormons have been castigated for perceived reticence in dealing with tough questions. Well, that's a two-edged sword, isn't it? You can't just throw up your hands and say, "It's a great mystery; god is in essence unknowable."
It would be contrary to both Christian and Mormon teachings to say He is knowable. Or do you reject Romans 3:11?
"There is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God." | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Java Lover
Posts:0
| | 10/24/2007 2:24 PM |
Alert | Another good website to check out is www.carm.org
If you like to read check out 'Under the Banner of Heaven'. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/24/2007 2:28 PM |
Alert | tajh, much of the information you will receive here is ABOVE and BEYOND what most people with curiosities need. Also, much of it is skewed by people with misunderstandings concerning what the teachings are. Many know the words, but they do not understand the gospel.
The doctrine must be 100% correct on the basics. Discussing God's history is a basic concept. First Thessalonians 5:21:
"But examine all things; hold fast to what is good. Stay away from every form of evil." | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | tajh
Posts:32
| | 10/24/2007 2:30 PM |
Alert | Posted By Java Lover on 10/24/2007 2:22 PM
I'm not so much fascinated as trying to understand individual people. That is why I asked what I did because I think there are a lot of LDS people out there that either don't know/believe what the LDS really is and the other people are trying to 'smoke and mirror' people into seeing only what they want people to see.
I have done my research on the doctrine and LDS history. I know what info is out there, but again I think there are a lot of LDS people that are not really LDS. That really makes no sense but I'll not confuse the issue further.
I think I know what you mean - same as a person saying they're Christian, but don't know 'the word'?? | |
Whether your riches greater than mine,
your mind wiser than mine;
you are not above nor below
I am your neighbor, I am equal.
-Me | |
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