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| | Author | Messages | |
joe_2007
Posts:83
 | | 10/23/2007 12:13 PM |
 Alert | Posted By photogirl on 10/23/2007 10:42 AM
All this intellectual foder is fine, but for me, it all boils down to this. I have read the Book of Mormon, prayed to God with a sincere desire to know if it is true, and received a confirmation by the Spirit of the Holy Ghost that it is completely true. I have also done the same as I read the bible, and through the same process I believe the bible to be true.
Photogirl, if you don't mind me asking, how did the Holy Ghost confirm this to you? How do you know when something is true and from God?
Out there many may despise me for that and spit out all the "fact" and "wisdom" that they would like, but nothing will change my testimony that God has restored the fullness of his truth on the earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith; that the Book of Mormon is another Testament of Jesus Christ and that through reading and studying the teachings of the Book of Mormon, along with the Bible I have come closer to my Savior; that there is a prophet on the earth today and that I can and will be with my family for eternity.
What if you end up in different levels of heaven?
Those truths are precious to me because I asked God if they were true, in prayer, and he confirmed that they were, through the spirit.
This leads back to my first question.
I have lived the teachings and I have had even further confirmation through the spirit that the principles I have been taught are true. I have been to many other churches and spoken to leaders of many different faiths and I respect those beliefs, but I have never felt the spirit from them as I have when I read and study and worship in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I know it is true because I have tested it and lived it, and I will continue to test it and live it through study, prayer and application of its principles.
I commend you for testing it, but what test do you do?
Thank you,
Joe
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 10/23/2007 3:01 PM |
Alert | Posted By qwerty on 10/23/2007 7:00 AM Posted By EEE on 10/22/2007 8:35 PM Posted By moinmoin on 10/22/2007 8:22 PM
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Can you name one contradiction between the Book of Mormon and the New Testament? I would be very interested to see any contradictions you think you can find between the New Testament and the Book of Mormon.
 New Testament huh? This explains the dead silence every time I bring up Psalms 90:2 and quote Joseph Smith. I love how God's Word even warns us early about the Mormon religion and the made up angel Moroni's: Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. Please don't mistake silence in regards to "God was once a man" doctrine as an admission of "defeat". It's mostly because this doctrine is very difficult to have a discussion around in a forum setting. Also, I don't think we can fully understand the doctrine at this point nor is it essential to this life. You won't find that doctrine in the BOM and it's not frequently discussed in Church. Again, please don't mistake that for us believing that the doctrine is incorrect. I do believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and therefore anything he taught under the direction of God must be true regardless of whether I can fully comprehend it or not. If Moses would have taught it, I'm sure we wouldn't be having this discussion because you would take it as truth because you believe Moses was a prophet. There are many things we don't understand in relation to God. Even doctrine within the Bible can be difficult to understand. For example, the idea of God being without beginning and without end...eternal. Can you really fathom and explain how that works? Probably not, and it doesn't matter for us now. I guarantee there is so many more wonderful things that we will learn after this life. But right now we need to focus on beleiving in Christ and following his teachings. God will reveal more as we need it. This debate could go on forever and honestly, my work is really busy right now so I don't have the time to come up with elaborate responses.  So again, please don't take the lack of my postings as an admission of "defeat". I respect you guys for what you believe in even though we disagree on many things. That's what makes life interesting.
What's so difficult to understand with what the Bible has already revealed about God? Do you not want to talk about it in a forum setting, because you want to say something along the lines that you can't trust everything in the bible and that would turn people off to the Mormon relgion?  Please explain Psalms 90:2 to us laymen. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 10/23/2007 3:02 PM |
Alert | Posted By joe_2007 on 10/23/2007 12:13 PM
What if you end up in different levels of heaven?
Good question!
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Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 10/23/2007 3:38 PM |
Alert | Posted By leefamily on 10/23/2007 11:10 AM
I must say that through all my 'debates' with atheists, I never really understood why they couldn't grasp the concept of Christians believing so wholy in the word of God and why they thought us crazy - until now.
Mormons are nuts. There is absolutely no proof that any of the stories, the land, or anything existed. You can find evidence of Christ, but you can't find evidence of anything related to the LDS church except some whacko's who founded a religion based on one man's IMAGINATION. NICE!!!
If it were to come out that Jesus himself never existed, there was no proof in anything that The Bible said, I think most Christians would have to scratch their heads and perhaps rethink some things. WHY DON'T MORMONS DO THAT??????
oh, wait, it's called 'only hearing what you want to...' That's the basis of the Mormon Cult
leefamily ... GO AWAY! Your insults are not helpful. Even if Mormonism is totally false, calling Mormons "nuts" is just rude and not part of what a good debate contains. I know too many Mormons who are actually quite sane and remarkably more articulate than you. | | | |
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| | AuntieEm
Posts:159
| | 10/23/2007 4:53 PM |
Alert | Posted By qwerty on 10/23/2007 7:00 AM
There are many things we don't understand in relation to God. Even doctrine within the Bible can be difficult to understand. For example, the idea of God being without beginning and without end...eternal. Can you really fathom and explain how that works? Probably not, and it doesn't matter for us now. I guarantee there is so many more wonderful things that we will learn after this life. But right now we need to focus on beleiving in Christ and following his teachings. God will reveal more as we need it.
I don't have to explain it, for the BOM already explains how God is eternal.
"I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity" (Moroni 8:18).
"For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing? And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles" (Mormon 9:9-10).
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I'm walking 60 miles over three days in the Arizona Breast Cancer 3-Day because everyone deserves a lifetime! http://08.the3day.org/goto/emma | |
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 10/23/2007 5:00 PM |
Alert | Posted By AuntieEm on 10/23/2007 4:53 PM Posted By qwerty on 10/23/2007 7:00 AM
There are many things we don't understand in relation to God. Even doctrine within the Bible can be difficult to understand. For example, the idea of God being without beginning and without end...eternal. Can you really fathom and explain how that works? Probably not, and it doesn't matter for us now. I guarantee there is so many more wonderful things that we will learn after this life. But right now we need to focus on beleiving in Christ and following his teachings. God will reveal more as we need it. I don't have to explain it, for the BOM already explains how God is eternal. "I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity" (Moroni 8:18). "For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing? And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles" (Mormon 9:9-10).
Then how does that fit with the Mormon philosophy of "As man is, God was. As God is, man will be"? How about the idea of eternal progression? How many gods are there, and how many gods were there before Elohim was born?
(I am talking in completely Mormon terms here. ) (sorry for the mispell earlier) | | | |
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|  | AuntieEm
Posts:159
| | 10/23/2007 6:34 PM |
Alert | Posted By joe_2007 on 10/23/2007 5:00 PM Posted By AuntieEm on 10/23/2007 4:53 PM Posted By qwerty on 10/23/2007 7:00 AM
There are many things we don't understand in relation to God. Even doctrine within the Bible can be difficult to understand. For example, the idea of God being without beginning and without end...eternal. Can you really fathom and explain how that works? Probably not, and it doesn't matter for us now. I guarantee there is so many more wonderful things that we will learn after this life. But right now we need to focus on beleiving in Christ and following his teachings. God will reveal more as we need it. I don't have to explain it, for the BOM already explains how God is eternal. "I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity" (Moroni 8:18). "For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing? And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles" (Mormon 9:9-10). Then how does that fit with the Mormon philosophy of "As mna is, God was. As God is, man will be"? How about the idea of eternal progression? How many gods are there, and how many gods were there before Elohim was born? (I am talking in completely Moron term s here. )
That's my point, it totally contradicts it. | |
I'm walking 60 miles over three days in the Arizona Breast Cancer 3-Day because everyone deserves a lifetime! http://08.the3day.org/goto/emma | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 10/23/2007 9:36 PM |
Alert | "I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity" (Moroni 8:18).
"For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing? And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles" (Mormon 9:9-10).
These scriptures are talking about the LAWS of God and the blessings which he bestows upon us. They are discussing the fact that there are prophets and miracles, and gifts of the spirit. That these things will be on the earth because God does not change His teachings, he does not take away blessings, etc. It has nothing to do with eternal progression or the state of God as man.
Go back to vs 7: And again I speak unto you who deny the revelations of God, and say their are no revelations of God, and say that they are done awaym that there are no revelations, nor prophets, nor gifts, nor healing, nor speaking with tongues, and the interpretation of tongues; (vs8) Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.
And on to vs 11: But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all the things that in them are.
I do not have a lot of knowledge concerning HOW God received His body. I do not concern myself with it. It is not important to my progression. I do not strive to be a god - I strive to BE LIKE GOD. He is MY God. The only god to worship, to love and to pray to. If there are other gods - they are unimportant. They are nothing to me. They may exist - I do not know, but THERE is NO god above the god of the Bible. There is no savior above the savior of the Bible. They are THE SAME god and savior written about in the Book of Mormon.
Here are two talks given at our recent General Conference which you may enjoy:
http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,49-1-775-15,00.html
http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,49-1-775-16,00.html
Back to my hole, I have barely been following this discussion. I really don't like debates of religion - they chase the spirit away - leaving me with an empty feeling of sadness. However, being able to read the above scriptures and talks have buoyed me - The spirit is a wonderful thing. It speaks truth to my heart. A truth that I know because I do not have a stupor of thought - or question it when I am by myself in contemplation. It is how I know what HF would have me do and believe.
Also, if I may remind others of this talk (Faith, Family, Facts, and Fruits, by Elder Ballard) - which may apply:
http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,49-1-775-9,00.html
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 10/23/2007 9:44 PM |
Alert | Sorry, didn't completely notice the reference to Moroni 8:18 "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity."
If you study farther, you will find a footnote on 'unchangeable' which takes you not only to Mormon 9:9 (previously quoted), but also to Alma 7:20 - which is very clear:
"I perceive that it has been made known unto you, by the testimony of his word, that he cannot walk in crooked paths; NEITHER DOTH HE VARY FROM THAT WHICH HE HATH SAID; neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left, or from that which is right to that which is wrong; therefore, his course is one eternal round." | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/23/2007 9:48 PM |
Alert | | Having debates about your faith should not leave you feeling empty and sad. You should either leave with a better understanding of what you believe or a prompting by the Holy Spirit to learn more so you are better able to explain your faith to those who do not understand. When someone points out a contradiction in your faith, you should be eager to dispel the misunderstanding, you should not feel empty, as if your faith was hollow. That's part of what tells me that the Mormon faith is not the right one, because hard questions cause believers to feel empty or gloss over the question. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 10/23/2007 9:58 PM |
Alert | You misunderstand. I do not mind explaining my faith to those who are honestly seeking to learn - or to try to understand with an open mind what I believe. I am not a person out to try to convert the world to Mormonism. I figure HF will help me find those who are interested w/o having to annoy those who are not interested. However, I find it very unfulfilling to try to explain my beliefs to those who would do nothing by try to tell me I am wrong. I love to answer questions that are asked as a way to understand my belief better - whether or not it is accepted as true by the other person, but when people set out to prove I am wrong (which I do not do to those I DO discuss with - everyone is entitled to their belief) I feel saddened that they are looking only to disprove - vs understand.
In a discussion where I can share with an open heart and have thought-provoking questions asked in a way that is NOT a debate fashion - I learn more, feel the spirit stronger, and find myself even more strong in my belief.
So you see, it is the way the discussion takes place, not the subject matter which bothers me.
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/23/2007 10:05 PM |
Alert | | I think text distorts things somewhat. I'm honestly interested in why LDS derives their teachings from the Bible and yet has such large discrepancies. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 10/23/2007 10:30 PM |
Alert | As I said, I haven't really been following the discussion here very much - I kinda got the feeling of being "hit over the head" early on - simply because of the debate which has been going. I kind of glance over a few things. I really don't like the quoting feature - drives me a little crazy - makes it hard for me to follow who is saying what - LOL!
In terms of the descrepancies - 1st you have to realize, much of what you are talking about in terms of descrepancies are likely differences in interpretation. One of the features we have in the printed KJ bible are footnotes which will show the corresponding scriptures in the Book of Mormon. The TEXT in the PRINTED KJ BIBLE has not been changed from the text any other printed KJ bible would have. Our translation differences are found elsewhere in the Pearl of Great Price.
One of the things I have noticed often is the scriptures which are often quoted to me from the Bible are taken to have a different meaning from the person quoting it than how I understand it when I read it and/or study it. Because I believe the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price to be scriptures of God, I use them as such, which often times gives me an insight into a vs from the bible, that I may not fully understand by itself.
I truly am no scriptorian. I usually have to put a lot of good research in to come up with a decent answer. Most of the time someone else has a better answer than I do - one that makes me go, "Yeah, that's what I meant."
I know a lot of people want outside proof of the Book of Mormon and the Restoration of Christ's church. I DO think about it. I would not want to be that person who was foolishly believing the world was flat because that was what I was taught as a child. However, when I think about it I come to a couple of conclusions: 1. I DO believe there is a god. 2. I cannot fathom a god with three personalities or a god who prays to himself - so God and Christ must be seperate beings. 3. I simply BELIEVE! I KNOW in my heart what I'm being taught is true. It is not something I can deny, it is not something I can prove. It simply IS!
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 10/23/2007 10:58 PM |
Alert | I was interested in the references to darkness for three days, vs darkness for three hrs. This is my understanding. The darkness for 3 hrs happened BEFORE Christs death. It is not refuted or disagreed with by the Book of Mormon. Helaman Chapter 14 is discussing the happening AFTER Christ's death. I did notice the Bible did not mention darkness after Christ's death. HOWEVER, we believe the Book of Mormon to be another testiment of Christ, there is additional info and explanations there - that is WHY it is such important scripture. The Book of Mormon is not saying it wasn't dark for 3 hrs before Christ's death - this is already recorded in the Bible -- it was saying it was ALSO dark for 3 days!
Now, I'm tired, and I haven't had dinner, and I have kids to get ready for school - good night all.
Perhaps I will REALLY return to my hole!  | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 10/23/2007 11:23 PM |
Alert | Posted By AuntieEm on 10/23/2007 6:34 PM Posted By joe_2007 on 10/23/2007 5:00 PM Posted By AuntieEm on 10/23/2007 4:53 PM Posted By qwerty on 10/23/2007 7:00 AM
There are many things we don't understand in relation to God. Even doctrine within the Bible can be difficult to understand. For example, the idea of God being without beginning and without end...eternal. Can you really fathom and explain how that works? Probably not, and it doesn't matter for us now. I guarantee there is so many more wonderful things that we will learn after this life. But right now we need to focus on beleiving in Christ and following his teachings. God will reveal more as we need it. I don't have to explain it, for the BOM already explains how God is eternal. "I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity" (Moroni 8:18). "For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing? And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles" (Mormon 9:9-10). Then how does that fit with the Mormon philosophy of "As mna is, God was. As God is, man will be"? How about the idea of eternal progression? How many gods are there, and how many gods were there before Elohim was born? (I am talking in completely Moron term s here. ) That's my point, it totally contradicts it.
The new thread on Psalms 90:2 addresses this. There is no contradiction.
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| | photogirl
Posts:18
| | 10/25/2007 1:10 AM |
Alert | Joe_2007, I know this thread has moved elsewhere, but I wanted to respond to the questions you asked me. First, how did the Holy Ghost confirm it to me:
First, I have to say that as a Christian who studies the bible, you should know how the Spirit works, and should know the answer to your question; which makes me think you are trying to bait me as many here like to do. But, since you asked, and I believe there are those out there who may truly want to know how I received the answer through the spirit, I will give an explanation.
As I have studied the Gospel of Jesus Christ, some of what I have learned about the Holy Ghost is this; that (John 14:26) The Comforter is sent to teach me all things and bring all things to my remembrance, as well as bring me peace. I have been taught that the fruits of the spirit are (Galatians 5:22)love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. And also (Doctrine and Covenants 9: 8 ) that as I study something out and ask God if it is true, I will feel a “burning in my bosom” if it is true, or receive a “stupor of thought” if it is not. I have felt in my heart that what I have been taught it true, I have gained a greater understanding and felt as though I were remembering truths I had known before, I have felt the fruits of the spirit, and I have felt that “burning in the bosom” that the scriptures have talked about. If there is doctrine I don’t understand, I study it and pray about it, and to this day I have never found a doctrine that the church teaches that I do not believe. I have had subtle impressions, and strong impressions that things are true. I said that I have been to other churches, and each time, I have felt a distinct difference- at times the Stupor of thought, at times turmoil in trying to reconcile what they are saying to what I have been taught -and at those times I have gone back and studied that particular issue, and have always received the feelings of the spirit described above, which has led me to the personal knowledge that what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches is true.
Second- What if you end up in different levels of heaven?
I live with the hope and the faith that as my family and I strive to live righteous lives, and continue to come closer to the Savior and rely on and apply the Atonement of Jesus Christ that we will receive that blessing. I believe in that promise. I don’t dwell on the “What if’s”. It isn’t a lottery system where I do what is right, buy the ticket, so to say, and then hope that my ticket is the winner. The Lord made a promise, and if I keep up my end of the promise, he’ll keep his. I am so thankful for the Atonement, because it allows me to live with Hope, Faith and Peace.
Third- “this leads back to my first question”
….Which would lead me to refer you to my first answer.
It is now very late, and I need to go to bed. This week is pretty busy for me, so if you post a response and see no reply, I just haven’t been able to get back onto the forums. Thanks for your questions, and I hope that you asked out of sincerity, rather than other ulterior motives. Responding to your question, regardless of your motive, strengthened my testimony, and reinforced the foundation of my beliefs, so for that I thank you!
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| | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 10/25/2007 9:33 AM |
Alert | Posted By love@hm on 10/23/2007 10:30 PM
2. I cannot fathom a god with three personalities or a god who prays to himself - so God and Christ must be seperate beings.
This is not what the Doctrine of the Trinity teaches, but it is most certainly a difficult concept that everyone has struggled with since its inception long ago.
The Bible is clear first and foremost that God is One. His eternality also demands infinitude and the infinite is necessarily singular and indivisible. This is an axiom that MUST be preserved as we model the internal workings of the Godhead.
When the Bible claims that Jesus is "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the World", it does so because of the fact that God is indivisible. This also implies God's foreknowledge (a claim of scripture). The work of salvation had to be accomplished in the Godhead outside to time so that God is undivided. Had the Lamb been slain wholly in the temporal realm then God would have been divided. [There is more than just one dimension of time ... a being with a second dimension of time (7th dimension in General Relativity) could be everywhere at once. Basically, God can do some amazing and physically non-intuitive things because of His transcendence of the space-time continuum.]
Finally, the claim of scripture that "God is Love" also requires a diversity in the unity, or what we model with the concept of "personalities". This diversity has been revealed as three Persons. Exactly how that works may very well be beyond the grasp of mere mortals, which is why all analogies seem to fall short of the bigger idea. Bottom line, in order for God to be a loving God, there must be at least Two, in the One, since Love requires a relationship. We should never mistake our limited abilities with regard to unity to transfer to a limit on God's ability to be unified in His diversity.
Anyway, I just wanted to offer this so that your reason to disbelieve Christianity could not be based on a faulty understanding of God's nature and/or the Trinity. | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:486
| | 10/25/2007 11:35 AM |
Alert | I don't disbelieve Christianity - by MY definition - I know, different than many - I AM Christian. . . I believe in Jesus Christ, in His atonement and that it is through Him that I can have salvation.
Also, I am completely LOST in your post. I WANT to understand, but I think I need much more simplistic thoughts and explanations. You have to realize, for the past 32 yrs I have thought of the godhead as three seperate beings - 2 of which have bodies of flesh and blood.
So let's start with the very most basic:
1. You believe God does not have a body; I believe He does. OK, so in order for me to understand this, I have to think about the Holy Ghost (the member of the godhead we believe has no body)
2. You believe God can be in more than one place at a time. I deduce this because Christ prays and talks to God. . . what I don't understand is WHY He is praying and talking to 'himself'. He hung on the cross and said, "Father, forgive them; they know not what they do." (Luke 23: 29). and "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: " (Luke 23: 46) or perhaps, as Matthew and Mark said, " My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me." (Matt 27: 46 and Mark 15: 34) I know you have tried to explain, but I still don't get it. . .
In similarity, we also believe the Holy Spirit can be in more than one place, else how would more than one person feel the spirit and be moved by the spirit at the same time?
Forgive me - there was another person a week or so ago on a different message board who tried to explain the Trinity to a group of interested LDS members. Some of them got it - This particular person left the LDS faith and became a Lutheran Minister. So, she has the background to understand where my difficulties understanding lie - I still didn't catch on, but in all fairness, I also did not have a lot of time to invest in that discussion - not like I have managed here. | | | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 10/25/2007 12:11 PM |
Alert | Posted By love@hm on 10/25/2007 11:35 AM
I don't disbelieve Christianity - by MY definition - I know, different than many - I AM Christian. . . I believe in Jesus Christ, in His atonement and that it is through Him that I can have salvation.
Cool. That means you are saved based on Romans 10:9-10, which requires that we (1) believe that Jesus is God and (2) that God raised Him from the dead.
Posted By love@hm on 10/25/2007 11:35 AM
Also, I am completely LOST in your post.
You and countless others ... even the experts scratch their heads when they talk about the Trinity. The person of God is a difficult thing to grasp.
Posted By love@hm on 10/25/2007 11:35 AM
1. You believe God does not have a body; I believe He does. OK, so in order for me to understand this, I have to think about the Holy Ghost (the member of the godhead we believe has no body)
Why do you believe that God has a body when Jesus said in John 4:24, that "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."?
Yes, Jesus took on the "appearance of man" and "humbled Himself" for the sake of the Cross. This would be the only "flesh and bone" appearance of God that Scripture indicates. Where do you get a second person of the Godhead having a body?
Posted By love@hm on 10/25/2007 11:35 AM
2. You believe God can be in more than one place at a time. I deduce this because Christ prays and talks to God. . . what I don't understand is WHY He is praying and talking to 'himself'. He hung on the cross and said, "Father, forgive them; they know not what they do." (Luke 23: 29). and "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: " (Luke 23: 46) or perhaps, as Matthew and Mark said, " My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me." (Matt 27: 46 and Mark 15: 34) I know you have tried to explain, but I still don't get it. . .
It's not so much that God can be in more that one place at a time, but rather that He IS everywhere all of the time.
Jesus prays to God the Father because He had relinquished his deity (Philippians 2) in order to become a man and complete the work of salvation. The book of Ephesians also speaks clearly in chapter 1 of the Father's Will accomplished in and through Christ. Yes, God is One, but God is One Unified Diversity of Persons; namely, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. By the way, Jesus declared in John 15:26 that the Holy Spirit proceeds FROM the Father.
In the context of God's Will, the Father is the origin of that Will. The Godhead is unified in that Will and each Person has a role in the accomplishment of that Will.
I'll stop for now ... there is more to say, but we'll need to jump these hurdles before moving on. | | | |
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 10/25/2007 1:56 PM |
Alert | Posted By love@hm on 10/25/2007 11:35 AM
2. You believe God can be in more than one place at a time. I deduce this because Christ prays and talks to God. . . what I don't understand is WHY He is praying and talking to 'himself'. He hung on the cross and said, "Father, forgive them; they know not what they do." (Luke 23: 29). and "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: " (Luke 23: 46) or perhaps, as Matthew and Mark said, " My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me." (Matt 27: 46 and Mark 15: 34)
I know you have tried to explain, but I still don't get it. . .
Love@hm,
When the Bible says that God made man in his imagine, we believe that was not a physical image, but a spiritual one. Jehovah is Father, Son and Holy Ghost, just as we are body, mind, and soul.
Think for a second. Do you here yourself thinking? Do you get up in the morning and think, "Okay, today I have to do this and this and this."? Why would you do that? Your brain already knows what you have to do, or you would not be able to list it off. So why does one part of "yourself" talk to another part of "yourself".
Here's another one. Do you sometimes talk to yourself? Say yes, and agree with the rest of us in this world. We all say things like, "Now why did I do that?"
Are you crazy? Of course not. We communicate with ourselves because we are formed in the image of the triune God.
I hope this helps.
Joe | | | |
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