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| | Author | Messages | |
JasonY
Posts:1821
 | | 10/17/2007 3:49 PM |
 Alert | | I don't think Veritas has been rude at all. Go look at what some people post. I see all sorts of posts calling believers "delusional", "uneducated", blah blah blah. Most of the bitterness I read is coming from those lacking in any beliefs. | |
"Your village called.........they're missing their idiot" | |
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| | jimbob
Posts:114
| | 10/17/2007 5:19 PM |
Alert | Posted By Veritas on 10/17/2007 10:39 AM
Not true ... this forum is full of people explaining their reasons for unbelief. I do not know any Christians who truly think the way that you say they do, aside from the few in this forum who espouse that notion.
Yes, people are explaining their reasons for believing in something different but that doesn't mean both sides understand each other. I don't think you and I truly understand each other. Of course this is only based on a couple of message board posts but I'd be willing to bet we still wouldn't fully understand each other after a lengthy conversation. That's not saying anything negative about each other but we just have some different ideas and beliefs that may be difficult to comprehend from the other side.
Posted By Veritas on 10/17/2007 10:39 AM
I think that trying to manage terms like this is not fruitful. It's just a hollow argument to be bothered by such a benign prefix as "un". Either you believe or you do not believe and the terms for either are simple and plain.
I agree it's not fruitful. My point was that simply starting a thread and calling everyone "unbelievers" already puts them in the negative position. Likewise I could call everyone else in the world an unbeliever because they don't believe in exactly the same things I do.
Posted By Veritas on 10/17/2007 10:39 AM
Don't be silly. While for some people those sorts of events and acculturation are part of the equation, there are just as many who simply decide for other reasons that there is a God and He should be followed. Even IF everyone came to God that way, who are you to say that those reasons are not "real", "true", "valid" , etc.? Your premise is just as exclusive as what the atheist accuses the theist of.
Yeah, I was just giving a few examples of why some people may be religious and believe in God. Any of those reasons are definitely real, true, valid, etc. Heck, maybe if I go through something really traumatic I'll believe too. I still don't think it's a choice. Something clicks inside your brain and changes the way you feel. It's kind of like how I would consider myself liberal. I didn't really choose to be "a liberal" but everything I believe in puts me in that category and give me that label.
Posted By Veritas on 10/17/2007 10:39 AM
jimbob ... I am sorry for your loss, but with respect to what the theist position is on this matter, you already know what our official position is with regard to orthodoxy if you've read any of these forums. Your question either ignores the bigger idea that theists promote with regard to good and evil or it is unaware of those features of theism, in this case Christianity. I feel "baited" by the question as if you want me to say what you know my answer would be and then somehow use it against me in the forum. Not really a fair question to ask "us theists" so close to the loss of a loved one.
Thanks. And yes I already know what your answer would be. I guess that's more of a question I ask myself. I really truly can't comprehend how someone so good would deny someone else who was so good entry to heaven just because they didn't believe in God. That may sound absurd to some of you but that's just how I feel.
Posted By Veritas on 10/17/2007 10:39 AM
I apologize if this is not a fair characterization of what you meant ... I'm just a little jaded by the kinds of discussions that occur in this forum and never know if someone really wants an honest answer or if they just want to spar. I'm glad to "go there" if your question was an honest one ... only you can tell me that.
I definitely want honest answers and I've been told I'm going to hell plenty of times. And I was told that by people who sin a lot more than I do by the way.
There are lots of people out there who are 100% sure they know what's going to happen to me when I die. And then there are lots of those who are 100% sure about what's going to happen to you when you die (not talking about going to heaven here).
But hey, I guess in the end we'll all find out right? Life is short so we'll know pretty soon!
-j | |
Our website:http://jamesandchanin.com | |
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| | jimbob
Posts:114
| | 10/17/2007 5:23 PM |
Alert | Posted By JasonY on 10/17/2007 3:49 PM
I don't think Veritas has been rude at all. Go look at what some people post. I see all sorts of posts calling believers "delusional", "uneducated", blah blah blah. Most of the bitterness I read is coming from those lacking in any beliefs.
I think you meant to say "coming from those lacking in MY beliefs."
Everyone believes in something but they don't all believe in the same things you believe in.
-j | |
Our website:http://jamesandchanin.com | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:248
| | 10/17/2007 9:09 PM |
Alert | Posted By jimbob on 10/17/2007 5:19 PM
Yes, people are explaining their reasons for believing in something different but that doesn't mean both sides understand each other. I don't think you and I truly understand each other. Of course this is only based on a couple of message board posts but I'd be willing to bet we still wouldn't fully understand each other after a lengthy conversation. That's not saying anything negative about each other but we just have some different ideas and beliefs that may be difficult to comprehend from the other side.
I think that given enough time, we could come to an understanding. I believe this to be true because I perceive that you are an "honest skeptic". When I say "honest", I mean someone who is truly looking for answers as opposed to a fight.
Posted By jimbob on 10/17/2007 5:19 PM
I agree it's not fruitful. My point was that simply starting a thread and calling everyone "unbelievers" already puts them in the negative position. Likewise I could call everyone else in the world an unbeliever because they don't believe in exactly the same things I do.
I did not think to check before posting, but I think that an atheist started this topic ... but I do not remember for sure. I am not an unbeliever ... or that's an non-unbeliever 
Posted By jimbob on 10/17/2007 5:19 PM
Yeah, I was just giving a few examples of why some people may be religious and believe in God. Any of those reasons are definitely real, true, valid, etc. Heck, maybe if I go through something really traumatic I'll believe too. I still don't think it's a choice. Something clicks inside your brain and changes the way you feel. It's kind of like how I would consider myself liberal. I didn't really choose to be "a liberal" but everything I believe in puts me in that category and give me that label.
We are constantly choosing to remain as we are and/or to change the way that we are. At least, everyone that I know is continuously reflective about who/what they are. It's the key to growth on any level.
Posted By jimbob on 10/17/2007 5:19 PM
Thanks. And yes I already know what your answer would be. I guess that's more of a question I ask myself. I really truly can't comprehend how someone so good would deny someone else who was so good entry to heaven just because they didn't believe in God. That may sound absurd to some of you but that's just how I feel.
Define good. Define evil. How would a perfect God judge between them? These are not easy questions to answer.
First, evil has no existence in and of itself ... it is like a hole. Evil is the absence of that which is good. The ultimate good, from a biblical perspective is freedom. That freedom includes the right to choose God or to reject Him. There is only one sin that keeps someone out of heaven and that's the sin of rejecting Jesus as Lord. That was the reason Jesus came, to save sinners and give them eternal life (power over the grave) if they choose God.
Sin is sin. Whether you steal a candy bar or kill half a country, you have sinned against God and it only takes one sin to wipe you out. God accepts those who accept His Son Jesus and sees them as He would His own Son; otherwise, He sees them as they are, dead in sin.
Perfect standards are hard to live up to, but God is gracious in making a way for humans to be justified under His perfect law. There is no other way that a human being could get salvation because there is no way that anyone can live a perfect life unless they are God.
As difficult as what I've just said is, I have oversimplified it for the sake of space. | | | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:248
| | 10/17/2007 9:25 PM |
Alert | Posted By jimbob on 10/17/2007 5:19 PM
I definitely want honest answers and I've been told I'm going to hell plenty of times. And I was told that by people who sin a lot more than I do by the way.
There are lots of people out there who are 100% sure they know what's going to happen to me when I die. And then there are lots of those who are 100% sure about what's going to happen to you when you die (not talking about going to heaven here).
But hey, I guess in the end we'll all find out right? Life is short so we'll know pretty soon!
It is unfortunate that so many Christians convey that message so poorly; that is, that ______ is going to send you to Hell. There is only one sin that "sends" a person to Hell and that is the sin of unbelief, or the rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
Sin is sin and it only takes one sin against a perfect God to "wipe you out", so to speak. Whether having an impure thought or killing half a nation, a sin is sin and it violates God's law. Since no one can live a perfect life with respect to that law, God sent His Son to live that perfect life and overcome death and the grave through the Cross and the Resurrection. Only God could pull that off ... no human is that powerful, smart, good, etc.
EVERYONE on the planet is a sinner, including the Christians. Their only advantage is that they've accepted a gift from God through belief in Him and are saved by His Grace alone, not any good works or behavior. | | | |
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| | parrasplaces
Posts:17
| | 10/22/2007 8:36 AM |
Alert | | OF COURSE YOU WOULD BE FORGIVEN. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT GOD REMEMBERS THAT SIN NO MORE...SIN IS SIN, THERES NO BIG SIN OR LITTLE SIN....ITS STILL THE SAME TO GOD.JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS. OPENING DOORS FOR FORGIVENESS , REGARDLESS OF THE NATURE OF SIN.THE GUY IS STILL HEAVEN BOUND. | | | |
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|  | parrasplaces
Posts:17
| | 10/22/2007 8:37 AM |
Alert | | OF COURSE YOU WOULD BE FORGIVEN. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT GOD REMEMBERS THAT SIN NO MORE...SIN IS SIN, THERES NO BIG SIN OR LITTLE SIN....ITS STILL THE SAME TO GOD.JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS. OPENING DOORS FOR FORGIVENESS , REGARDLESS OF THE NATURE OF SIN.THE GUY IS STILL HEAVEN BOUND. | | | |
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| | parrasplaces
Posts:17
| | 10/22/2007 8:38 AM |
Alert | | OF COURSE YOU WOULD BE FORGIVEN. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT GOD REMEMBERS THAT SIN NO MORE...SIN IS SIN, THERES NO BIG SIN OR LITTLE SIN....ITS STILL THE SAME TO GOD.JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS. OPENING DOORS FOR FORGIVENESS , REGARDLESS OF THE NATURE OF SIN.THE GUY IS STILL HEAVEN BOUND. | | | |
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| | parrasplaces
Posts:17
| | 10/22/2007 8:39 AM |
Alert | | OF COURSE YOU WOULD BE FORGIVEN. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT GOD REMEMBERS THAT SIN NO MORE...SIN IS SIN, THERES NO BIG SIN OR LITTLE SIN....ITS STILL THE SAME TO GOD.JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS. OPENING DOORS FOR FORGIVENESS , REGARDLESS OF THE NATURE OF SIN.THE GUY IS STILL HEAVEN BOUND. | | | |
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