Jason
Posts:3378
 | | 09/28/2007 10:39 AM |
 Alert | | Except the easter bunny never claimed to do anything but deliver baskets to kids on easter morning. Just like the teapot, it's a ludicrous and insulting comparison. | |
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Michelle
Posts:102
| | 09/28/2007 11:57 AM |
Alert | Seriously.
You should apologize to the Easter Bunny. | |
I used to be Chelle.
"Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich | |
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joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 09/28/2007 12:15 PM |
Alert | Posted By Michelle on 09/27/2007 6:57 PM
Is this a trick question? The burden of proof is on the believer.
What are your top five reasons for not believing in the pink and green spotted dragon that lives in my backyard?
I did not say give me five reasons that you do not believe in God.
Well.. Okay, I guess I did in my first post. What I meant is:
List five pieces of evidence that you would give to choose Naturalism.
Why is this so hard for you people? If the best reason that you have for believing that everything is randomly caused is that you think there is no evidence to the contrary, then that is truely sad. Talk about faith.  | | | |
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Copa Conscious
Posts:379
| | 09/28/2007 12:20 PM |
Alert | That you believe a fairy tale about Jesus and his family is sad.
There's a billion people in China that HAVE FAITH that you are wrong.
I think its pretty arrogant of you that you think your FAITH is the RIGHT ONE of the many crazy religions. | | | |
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Michelle
Posts:102
| | 09/28/2007 12:20 PM |
Alert | Posted By joe_2007 on 09/28/2007 10:28 AM
That's what I thought. Atheists have no evidence supporting what they believe. Or maybe they are just not intelligent enough to discuss it rationaly. That's why they come back with answers like "The Easter Bunny".
Joe,
You and Jason are approaching the atheist perspective backwards and upside down, presumably because a belief in "God" is such an integral part of your identity that you can't remove yourself from that belief long enough to evaluate it objectively.
I don't believe in "God" because I do not have sufficient reason to do so. It's that simple. Please try to understand: atheism is not a belief; it is a lack of belief.
You need a reason — even if it is a reason based solely on emotion or faith or your trust in someone else's teaching — to hold a particular belief. You do not need a reason to not hold it; a lack of a reason to the contrary is sufficient.
I stumbled over the double-negatives, but I don't know how else to explain this without resorting to the Easter Bunny analogy .... | |
I used to be Chelle.
"Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich | |
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Copa Conscious
Posts:379
| | 09/28/2007 12:25 PM |
Alert | I have seen ACTUAL EASTER EGGS.
I have yet to see anyone part the Red Sea.
Score 1 for the Easter Bunny.
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Michelle
Posts:102
| | 09/28/2007 12:35 PM |
Alert | Posted By joe_2007 on 09/28/2007 12:15 PM
I did not say give me five reasons that you do not believe in God.
Well.. Okay, I guess I did in my first post. What I meant is:
List five pieces of evidence that you would give to choose Naturalism.
I haven't chosen anything! I have accepted and even embraced the fact that I don't know. I can only reject those "answers" and "explanations" that don't make sense to me — "God" foremost among them. (That's why I call myself an atheist rather than an agnostic, although there are some here who would debate those semantics into the ground.)
I lack the knowledge and the perspective and perhaps even the capability to understand the universe in all of its inexplicable intricacy ... and that's fine. I don't need to settle for a convenient explanation that just doesn't make sense in order to stave off the horror of the unknown, especially since I don't find the unknown horrifying in the first place. | |
I used to be Chelle.
"Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/28/2007 1:35 PM |
Alert | You and Jason are approaching the atheist perspective backwards and upside down, presumably because a belief in "God" is such an integral part of your identity that you can't remove yourself from that belief long enough to evaluate it objectively.
I'm sorry, but there is no other way to put this than bluntly: you're wrong. If you say something can't happen, that statement requires proof.
I have accepted and even embraced the fact that I don't know.
Then, by definition you are not an atheist. It doesn't matter what you call yourself, you can't just go reinventing definitions to make them what you want. Please re-read the title of the post... | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/28/2007 1:40 PM |
Alert | Posted By Copa Conscious on 09/28/2007 12:20 PM
That you believe a fairy tale about Jesus and his family is sad.
No, what's sad is that you reject all kinds of historical evidence proving that it wasn't a fairy tale.
There's a billion people in China that HAVE FAITH that you are wrong.
I think its pretty arrogant of you that you think your FAITH is the RIGHT ONE of the many crazy religions.
Boo-hoo. | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/28/2007 1:44 PM |
Alert | Posted By Copa Conscious on 09/28/2007 12:25 PM
I have seen ACTUAL EASTER EGGS.
I have yet to see anyone part the Red Sea.
Score 1 for the Easter Bunny.
You'd have to be an idiot to think that the easter bunny put those eggs there, when you know that you or a family member did. Miracles happen every day, people just decide reclassify them for their own convenience and comfort.
I guess I need to take the advice:  | |
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Grilladawg
Posts:219
| | 09/28/2007 1:46 PM |
Alert | | Im beginning to wonder....are all atheists liberals? | | | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/28/2007 1:46 PM |
Alert | Posted By Grilladawg on 09/28/2007 1:46 PM
Im beginning to wonder....are all atheists liberals?
They can't be, because then they wouldn't be freethinkers, at least according to Michelle's definition.  | |
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joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 09/28/2007 2:04 PM |
Alert | Posted By Michelle on 09/28/2007 12:35 PM Posted By joe_2007 on 09/28/2007 12:15 PM
I did not say give me five reasons that you do not believe in God.
Well.. Okay, I guess I did in my first post. What I meant is:
List five pieces of evidence that you would give to choose Naturalism. I haven't chosen anything! I have accepted and even embraced the fact that I don't know. I can only reject those "answers" and "explanations" that don't make sense to me — "God" foremost among them. (That's why I call myself an atheist rather than an agnostic, although there are some here who would debate those semantics into the ground.) I lack the knowledge and the perspective and perhaps even the capability to understand the universe in all of its inexplicable intricacy ... and that's fine. I don't need to settle for a convenient explanation that just doesn't make sense in order to stave off the horror of the unknown, especially since I don't find the unknown horrifying in the first place.
Do you believe the universe is old? There's a belief.
Do you believe we evolved? There's another belief.
Do you believe man is related to apes? There's another belief.
So I ask what evidence you would point to. You have chosen. You have chosen Naturalism. The belief that everything came by natural processes and nothing is outside the bounds of the natural world.
Unless you are in a completely vegetative state, you have beliefs!!!! | | | |
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Michelle
Posts:102
| | 09/28/2007 2:57 PM |
Alert | L2Read. Srsly. 
Jason:I don't know is my answer to the universe, not to "God." I am an atheist. Please stop trying to pretend that you know what I believe and what I do not believe better than I do. You do not.
Joe: Of course I have beliefs. I just don't have a belief in your "God." | |
I used to be Chelle.
"Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich | |
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joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 09/28/2007 3:26 PM |
Alert | Posted By Michelle on 09/28/2007 2:57 PM L2Read. Srsly.  Joe: Of course I have beliefs. I just don't have a belief in your "God."
Then what evidence would you give for the beliefs that you have. That was the original question. | | | |
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Horses R Cool
Posts:144
| | 09/28/2007 4:09 PM |
Alert | Here is my take on this subject. I am not sure where I stand. Much of the world believes in some sort of "god". A god that performs miracles, heals the sick, helps the poor, etc. You can pray to the god of your choice and you are supposed to be forgiven your "sins".
On the other hand, we have scientists that have proven our world was in existence long before Jesus was born. We have doctors that heal the sick and injured. We have courts of law to deal with sinners. I have yet to have a prayer answered or a miracle happen in my life. I seem to always manage to grab my self by the ass strings and hustle to solve my problems. I have always been kind to people, helped those in need, but yet people take advantage of me and in many cases my life has sucked. I have prayed. Not one "sign".
Where is your evidence of a god? The bible? It's a book. There are several books that tell of stories of long ago. My mother passed on stories about her family as told to her by her parents and grandparents. I have no idea if they are factual or not. They are just some cool stories I have passed on to my kids.
In short, I find believing in god to be a difficult choice. I really have had no proof or personal experiences to indicate that there is a "greater being". You are born, you live, you die, you become fertilizer. | | | |
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BeerLeague2
Posts:111
| | 09/28/2007 4:19 PM |
Alert | Posted By Cletus on 09/28/2007 7:47 AM Posted By joe_2007 on 09/28/2007 7:03 AM
There is no 'burden of proof' here. I am just asking what YOU look at and say "NO God".
I am also just talking about physical/scientific evidences. Not things like war, since those are man-made, and just blamed on a diety. Three words "Dick Cheney Lives." Proof there is no god. This man is so evil, has had too many heart attacks to count, he's fat, he's angry, he's another heart attack waiting to happen - - and yet he walks the Earth. He should have flatlined a long time ago.
Holy crap, Cletus! That is the funniest darn thing I've read in a helluva long time!!! ROFL!! | | | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/28/2007 4:20 PM |
Alert | On the other hand, we have scientists that have proven our world was in existence long before Jesus was born.
What are you trying to say with this item?
We have doctors that heal the sick and injured.
Some doctors are gifted.
We have courts of law to deal with sinners.
Our courts are not perfect and there is corruption in them.
I have yet to have a prayer answered or a miracle happen in my life.
Are you sure? Are you sure the answer wasn't "no" or "wait"? Have you never had a brush with death (think 347! )? How about a close family member?
I seem to always manage to grab my self by the ass strings and hustle to solve my problems.
You make it sound like you do it all by yourself. You don't have any help from anyone?
I have always been kind to people, helped those in need, but yet people take advantage of me and in many cases my life has sucked.
You have never been unkind in the slightest to anyone? | |
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HiggsBoson
Posts:641
| | 09/28/2007 8:29 PM |
Alert | How do you prove that something doesn't exist? If there is zero evidence for something does this mean it doesn't exist? It "proves" that this whatever is unlikely to exist, but not that it doesn't. So to the Christians here please tell us how we are to prove the non existence of something? Proving that Jason's car cannot fly is not even close to the same thing as proving that the flying spaghetti monster does not exist.
I think we are seeing ignorance of the scientific process at work here again. The idea that we should imagine things that doesn't exist, and then go about "proving" that these things do not exist is ridiculous. The burden of proof absolutely is on the side of those that claim bigfoot, ghosts, gods, and the Higgs Boson exist.
Lack of belief is not really the opposite of believing. When I say I don't believe in something what I am saying is that given all the evidence available the best choice is that this whatever it is, does not exist. Or even better stated, there is not enough evidence that zxy doesn't exists.
I guess to play along we could say all scientific knowledge about the universe and how it works is evidence against god. God of the Gaps and all that.
The real problem lies with this, "proof" is within the realm of science, there are protocols, processes, and rules that have to be followed (Scientific Method). God is outside of this process. No matter how many gaps get filled in by science, faith in God lies outside of that.
Some Christians will offer the false explanation that they don't believe the scientific explanation of the universe because there is not enough evidence of those theories. The truth is no matter how much our knowledge is increased and how many of the unanswered questions get answers, they will believe in God because they choose to, they want to, they need to.
Thanks,
Higgs | |
Liberalism and capitalism address themselves to the cool, well-balanced mind. They proceed by strict logic, eliminating any appeal to the emotions. Socialism, on the contrary, works on the emotions, tries to violate logical considerations by rousing a sense of personal interest and to stifle the voice of reason by awakening primitive instincts.
-- Ludwig Von Mises | |
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Veritas
Posts:250
| | 09/29/2007 5:09 PM |
Alert | Posted By Trogdor! on 09/27/2007 7:31 PM
Jason,
Why isn't the burden of proof on the believer?
Joe,
It's not that there's evidence against "God", but rather that there's no evidence for "God".
Like Michelle said, "The burden of proof is on the believer."
Actually, the one trying to make a case for the negative position must disprove the positive ... but y'all don't seem to care much for logic.
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