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| | Author | Messages | |
JAG
Posts:520
 | | 10/08/2007 8:20 PM |
 Alert | EEE,
No you are incorrect on many levels.
I did not address the Scripture, because it in the end is of no use with Calvinists. You could tell them this is what it means. But they will argue against and will only look at certain scriptures and take them out of context. Its just modern day Gnosticism really. They see some special language that only a select few can understand. This is why God did not allow various other books in the Bible because of the Gnostic's.
As for the scripture you quoted. St Paul is clearly speaking of why Evil man exists and why God allows them to happen. He is not saying that God makes evil men, that would mean that God created Evil. Again we run into the illogical doctrine of Calvinism.
I also never stated that Homosexuality is not a sin. Just that it is a sin just like all the other sins in the world. If I have given you a different opinion please show me where.
You are wrong and misunderstand the meaning of Faith and Works. You also gravely misunderstand Church Doctrine. I would like a legitamate link to what you are attempting to state.
The 2 must be the same and present to show the other. You cannot have Faith without Works, just as Works without Faith. It would be like saying you can Have life without Breath. But hey argue Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46.
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "
I am sorry but I am not sure how you could look at that and say that Faith+Works does not need to be present. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/08/2007 8:29 PM |
Alert | Again you need to answer my question. It leads into what you are saying. For the fourth time, I answered it. Those who are still under the older Covenants can be righteous by their actions and a sacrifice. Christians can do this as well, just that we have sacrificed the perfect Lamb.
Do you agree with this? No, no, no, no. What does none mean to you? What does all mean to you? Once you answer these questions, this can be a meanginful discussion. I'll give an analogy. You go into BestBuy to return an item. The policy is, anyone who can climb the wall unaided (no shoes, no other tricks) can return their items. Anyone who cannot must beg the manager's forgiveness and they will then be allowed. Just because condition one exists, doesn't mean that anyone can actually fulfill it, regardless of what the past is. I did not address the Scripture, because it in the end is of no use with Calvinists. You could tell them this is what it means. But they will argue against and will only look at certain scriptures and take them out of context. This is hilarious! This is exactly what you are doing. You have refused to answer to why the Galatians quote says what it says and what "none" and "all" mean. I have answered every single one of your supposed contradictions. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | JAG
Posts:520
| | 10/08/2007 8:30 PM |
Alert |
I explained this one, twice. The OT covenants are still legit, but it goes back to you tossing out sections of the Bible to fit what you want God to be. No one is able to live up to them. What is so hard about that to understand?
Thank you I did not see this reply.
Ok so you accept that the OT covenents are still legit. And thru the OT covenent one can be Rightous.
But St Paul is saying differant. Is it a contradiction? Or is it a differant audiance and context as in the differances seen in the Gospels.
I am not trying to evade. Life is busy so I cannot get on here as much. But I am trying to convey my myside thru questioning you. I understand your points, I just think differantaly. | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:520
| | 10/08/2007 8:33 PM |
Alert | This is hilarious! This is exactly what you are doing. You have refused to answer to why the Galatians quote says what it says and what "none" and "all" mean. I have answered every single one of your supposed contradictions.
I was refering this to EEE. I should have stated that. Sorry for the confusion. | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 10/08/2007 9:24 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 10/08/2007 8:20 PM
EEE,
No you are incorrect on many levels.
I did not address the Scripture, because it in the end is of no use with Calvinists. You could tell them this is what it means. But they will argue against and will only look at certain scriptures and take them out of context. Its just modern day Gnosticism really. They see some special language that only a select few can understand. This is why God did not allow various other books in the Bible because of the Gnostic's.
You just proved with this paragraph you don't have an understanding of Calvinism or Gnosticism. They are not even closely related.
As for the scripture you quoted. St Paul is clearly speaking of why Evil man exists and why God allows them to happen. He is not saying that God makes evil men, that would mean that God created Evil. Again we run into the illogical doctrine of Calvinism.
What version of the bible are you reading? That is not even close. I have read and heard some bad interpretations but that is by far the worse eisigesis I have ever read on Romans 9. Please show me a verse in Romans 9 on God allowing evil men. I don't see it.
I also never stated that Homosexuality is not a sin. Just that it is a sin just like all the other sins in the world. If I have given you a different opinion please show me where.
My apologies I misunderstood.
You are wrong and misunderstand the meaning of Faith and Works. You also gravely misunderstand Church Doctrine. I would like a legitamate link to what you are attempting to state.
Here is a Catholic web page
http://www.saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html
The Sacraments
The Council further explains that the instrumental cause of grace is by the holy Sacraments of the Church. The Sacramental system, instituted by Christ, is one of the means by which grace is transmitted. Baptism, which we have already explained, is the necessary means by which a person receives sanctifying grace. Because grace can be lost by mortal sin, the Sacrament of Reconciliation is the normative way by which a person can receive sanctifying grace after it has been destroyed through mortal sin. The sacraments also serve to increase justification of the soul, through the increase of grace. The holy Eucharist, especially, is the nourishing food of the soul. The doctrine of increasing grace means that the theological virtues of faith, hope and charity can be strengthened and increased. St. John notes that "…he that is just, let him be justified still: and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still (Rev 22:11)." Thus the Church rightly teaches through Scripture and Apostolic Tradition that supernatural faith, hope and charity are gifts of grace that can be increased through the Sacraments.
The 2 must be the same and present to show the other. You cannot have Faith without Works, just as Works without Faith. It would be like saying you can Have life without Breath. But hey argue Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46.
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "
I am sorry but I am not sure how you could look at that and say that Faith+Works does not need to be present.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 10/08/2007 9:57 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 10/08/2007 8:20 PM
EEE,
As for the scripture you quoted. St Paul is clearly speaking of why Evil man exists and why God allows them to happen. He is not saying that God makes evil men, that would mean that God created Evil. Again we run into the illogical doctrine of Calvinism.
Let me ask you something about Evil. I don't believe God created Evil, as this is clear from scriptures. However I believe God is in complete control of all things.
If somebody truly believed God is all Sovereign and Powerful, is the presents of evil out of his control? What I mean is, Did Adam sin out of God's control? Did a murder or Rape happen out of God's control? If you read the book of Job, its clear and easy to see that God allows bad things to take place.
Why did God allow Evil to enter the world?
Because he is glorified in his forgiveness to Men. The Bible is all about God receiving Glory. He is glorified in Saving his people, and his power is made known in the destruction of the wicked. Rom 9:22,23 | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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|  | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 10/09/2007 1:20 PM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 10/08/2007 9:57 PM
Why did God allow Evil to enter the world?
Because he is glorified in his forgiveness to Men. The Bible is all about God receiving Glory. He is glorified in Saving his people, and his power is made known in the destruction of the wicked. Rom 9:22,23
WRONG. God allowed evil to enter the world because (1) the greatest Good is freedom and (2) He is all Good. Yes, he is glorified in lots of ways, including forgiveness towards man, but that IS NOT "why" he let evil enter the world. | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 10/09/2007 5:27 PM |
Alert | Posted By Veritas on 10/09/2007 1:20 PM Posted By EEE on 10/08/2007 9:57 PM
Why did God allow Evil to enter the world?
Because he is glorified in his forgiveness to Men. The Bible is all about God receiving Glory. He is glorified in Saving his people, and his power is made known in the destruction of the wicked. Rom 9:22,23 WRONG. God allowed evil to enter the world because (1) the greatest Good is freedom and (2) He is all Good. Yes, he is glorified in lots of ways, including forgiveness towards man, but that IS NOT "why" he let evil enter the world.
Do you have a verse for "the greatest Good is freedom"? Sounds like a bunch of humanistic theology to me.
Granted I don't have a verse on why God allowed evil into the world, so I am not dogmatic on that view, but it is the most biblical Systematic Theological view I have read and studied out of the bunch.
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Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 10/10/2007 11:01 AM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 10/09/2007 5:27 PM Posted By Veritas on 10/09/2007 1:20 PM Posted By EEE on 10/08/2007 9:57 PM
Why did God allow Evil to enter the world?
Because he is glorified in his forgiveness to Men. The Bible is all about God receiving Glory. He is glorified in Saving his people, and his power is made known in the destruction of the wicked. Rom 9:22,23 WRONG. God allowed evil to enter the world because (1) the greatest Good is freedom and (2) He is all Good. Yes, he is glorified in lots of ways, including forgiveness towards man, but that IS NOT "why" he let evil enter the world. Do you have a verse for "the greatest Good is freedom"? Sounds like a bunch of humanistic theology to me.
EEE,
1. You need to "chill out" in a major way. There is MUCH MORE to the Christian life than always being right; in fact, that's not really a part of Christian Life in the first place. We certainly need to be correct in the assertions that we make, theistic or not, but we do not need to devour one another over things that are non-essential. There are only 3 essential doctrines ... God exists, Jesus is God, and His Word is True; but I oversimplify for the sake of space in the forum.
2. I'm not sure what "humanistic theology" is and neither are you. You're using that in an unfortunate way because you have nothing to support your argument with and it's your only recourse with me in this "debate". But I appreciate your sincerity.
3. In Galatians 5:1, we get a hint at my premise when Paul writes, "It was for freedom that Christ set us free...". If so, then the entire work of Christ was focused on our freedom. Salvation is the path to that Freedom and it is reasonable to think that Christ's main purpose is the greatest Good.
4. Can you cite anything from Scripture that refutes the assertion that God is primarily interested in freedom? Seems to me that He consistently offers freedom, rest, etc. to His people, but for the sake of stupid human tricks throughout history it has been difficult for humans to enter in.
5. Also, while God will ALWAYS receive glory, the Bible IS NOT "all about God receiving glory!" It's His revelation to mankind in order that we might come to know Him! Yes, He is glorified in EVERYTHING that He does, but He does things out of Love. Do not confuse God's motive with God's affect/effect. Take note of the first time that God said anything about His Glory in Exodus 33:19 ... He went on to reveal/define/speak of it in terms of goodness and that goodness is all about grace and compassion. It's that grace and compassion that gives us salvation and freedom. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 10/10/2007 11:26 AM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/10/2007 11:08 AM 1. You need to "chill out" in a major way. There is MUCH MORE to the Christian life than always being right;  Why did you write this and then go on to say all of that?
Because I think it is true.
Posted By Jason on 10/10/2007 11:08 AM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with discussing the Bible and it is of paramount importance that people understand what it means. That necessarily means that someone will be right and someone will be wrong. You have a serious misunderstanding if you think EEE (or I) is in this just to be right.
I never said that discussing the Bible is not of paramount importance. You and EEE just seem to put on a show that is not helpful to the cause of Christ.
Posted By Jason on 10/10/2007 11:08 AM Oh, and I'm still waiting on an answer to my questions. 
Which questions? Which topic? Maybe I didn't check the reply box ... I wait for the email when someone posts to me. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/10/2007 12:00 PM |
Alert | Posted By Veritas on 10/10/2007 11:26 AM
Because I think it is true.
And you think what EEE and I am saying is just for the fun of saying it?
I never said that discussing the Bible is not of paramount importance. You and EEE just seem to put on a show that is not helpful to the cause of Christ.
This is not true at all. We have added to this conversation in several ways, most importantly though: We've offered thought provoking arguments and scripture to reinforce our claims. How in the world does this not help?
Which questions? Which topic? Maybe I didn't check the reply box ... I wait for the email when someone posts to me.
This topic. Questions:
A) What is your definition of none?
B) What is your definition of all?
C) What is your interpretation of Galatians 3:11-14, specifically the definition that "no one is justified before God by the law"? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 10/10/2007 12:17 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/10/2007 12:00 PM Posted By Veritas on 10/10/2007 11:26 AM
Because I think it is true. And you think what EEE and I am saying is just for the fun of saying it?
No. I'm not sure why you take that inference though...
Posted By Jason on 10/10/2007 12:00 PM I never said that discussing the Bible is not of paramount importance. You and EEE just seem to put on a show that is not helpful to the cause of Christ. This is not true at all. We have added to this conversation in several ways, most importantly though: We've offered thought provoking arguments and scripture to reinforce our claims. How in the world does this not help?
Seems more like a public argument than it does a discussion. Also, there was a reference by another member somewhere how interesting it was to "watch the Christians duke it out". In my mind, this is not helpful to the cause of Christ. The unbeliever does not care about the finer points of doctrine nor can they access them without the basic knowledge of Jesus Christ as Lord. Your discussion does not help anyone see "the hope of our salvation".
Posted By Jason on 10/10/2007 12:00 PM
Which questions? Which topic? Maybe I didn't check the reply box ... I wait for the email when someone posts to me.
This topic. Questions: A) What is your definition of none? B) What is your definition of all? C) What is your interpretation of Galatians 3:11-14, specifically the definition that "no one is justified before God by the law"?
I did not answer them because I thought that they were addressed to EEE or someone else; but here are my answers.
A) None = not even one or an extremely small part of one ... the traditional idea of nothing.
B) All = everything, no thing left out in the set of things, etc. ... the traditional idea of all.
C) Succinctly, "Faith brings Righteousness". No works under any law for any reason can bring righteousness to an individual. God imputes righteousness from Christ to the believer. As Ephesians states, it is by grace through faith that we are saved. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/10/2007 1:05 PM |
Alert |  No wonder I'm confused! I mixed up you and JAG. 
I'm sorry. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/10/2007 1:07 PM |
Alert | Seems more like a public argument than it does a discussion. Also, there was a reference by another member somewhere how interesting it was to "watch the Christians duke it out". In my mind, this is not helpful to the cause of Christ. The unbeliever does not care about the finer points of doctrine nor can they access them without the basic knowledge of Jesus Christ as Lord. Your discussion does not help anyone see "the hope of our salvation".
It was not an argument, no matter how much the atheists like to paint it that way. It was a discussion or even a debate, with a back and forth as to what the Bible says. We are not put here merely to bring others to Christ, but to have a better understanding of what He said. It seems that there are no unbelievers in this conversation, so what we're doing fulfills the 2nd option. Don't let outsiders that look for anything wrong to point at dissuade you. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 10/10/2007 1:12 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/10/2007 1:05 PM  No wonder I'm confused! I mixed up you and JAG.  I'm sorry.
No problem. | | | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 10/10/2007 1:15 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/10/2007 1:07 PM Seems more like a public argument than it does a discussion. Also, there was a reference by another member somewhere how interesting it was to "watch the Christians duke it out". In my mind, this is not helpful to the cause of Christ. The unbeliever does not care about the finer points of doctrine nor can they access them without the basic knowledge of Jesus Christ as Lord. Your discussion does not help anyone see "the hope of our salvation". It was not an argument, no matter how much the atheists like to paint it that way. It was a discussion or even a debate, with a back and forth as to what the Bible says. We are not put here merely to bring others to Christ, but to have a better understanding of what He said. It seems that there are no unbelievers in this conversation, so what we're doing fulfills the 2nd option. Don't let outsiders that look for anything wrong to point at dissuade you.
Don't worry ... I AM NOT dissuaded in any way from my understanding that Calvinism is a hopelessly flawed doctrine. So is Arminianism. The Truth is somewhere in between those two extremes. | | | |
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| | Noel
Posts:42
| | 10/14/2007 9:44 AM |
Alert | | Could those of you who dont believe in Jesus do a favor to yourself and sit quietly every day and ask Jesus to give you these answers that only Jesus has. You could keep asking everyone who believes and they will encourage you because they feel how good it is to know what a truth is but that does not mean we can perfectly defined the truth. If you just spend the time that you spend making these questions on the forum but instead made them quietly to Jesus he would just answer you. But you wont quiet your mind long enough to listen and it is hard to listen for a sound you have never heard. But still this is a good filter because you erase all of the sound you do know and wait for the new one. In this way you can listen for vioce you have never heard before. It is too much to keep up these thread asking other children of God for all of the answers and we are just that. We are children of God but we are not God. Please spend and equal time asking these questions to God. | | | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:2436
| | 10/15/2007 4:16 PM |
Alert | | I noticed most of the people that start the topics in "Religion" believe in no religion at all. They start it, wait for religious people to comment, and then attack. | |
"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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