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| | Author | Messages | |
JAG
Posts:477
 | | 09/26/2007 11:42 PM |
 Alert | Jason,
Again you cannot put God in a Box. Stop saying things are impossible for God to do. When you were a child would you tell your father what is impossible?
Really read and investigate what you posted.
John 3:36 says "does not obey the Son". What do you really think that means? How could they Obey someone they never had the chance to meet? But what if they Obeyed the laws of Jesus on there own merit, thru the laws on their heart. Do you really think that God is into such sematatics?
Lets debate on a hypothetical issue of the man on the island, no other human interaction, no bible. Would he go to hell? If so why?
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| | JAG
Posts:477
| | 09/26/2007 11:44 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 09/26/2007 2:44 PM This is another example where God will judge and will send unbelievers to hell: 2 Thessalonians 1:5 This is evidence of God’s righteous judgment, to make you worthy of the kingdom of God, for which in fact you are suffering. For it is right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to you who are being afflicted to give rest together with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. With flaming fire he will mete out punishment on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will undergo the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength, when he comes to be glorified among his saints and admired on that day among all who have believed – and you did in fact believe our testimony.
Again he is speaking of those who do not follow the law.
The law is built into our Hearts as per Romans 2.
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/27/2007 12:54 AM |
Alert | I'm not putting God in a box, I'm saying there are certain things that don't happen based on what I read. If I understand you correctly though, you are putting him in a box by saying that all must go to heaven because no one understands their sin. Did I misunderstand you?
As for the man on the island, I believe that in some way, shape or form, God would get the message to him. Whether that be a book dropping out of the sky or God Himself talking to the guy, I don't think that there is anyone that doesn't have a choice due to ignorance. Why? Because it is His wish that none should perish.
Yes, the law is written on man's heart, but the heart is wicked. Just because we know the law, does not mean we will follow the law. Only those who believe in Jesus will turn towards Him.
I think this might just boil down to a simple misunderstanding and semantics issue.  | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 09/27/2007 5:54 AM |
Alert | double post
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Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 09/27/2007 5:54 AM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 09/26/2007 2:29 PM
but God is not bound by the bible in anyway. At anytime He can change whatever rule He wants
You're proving the more you post that your not letting God's Word speak, but rather you are speaking from your own understanding which is wrong.
"For I the LORD do not change..." Malachi (3:6)
"...God Cannot lie..." Titus 1:2
God is bound by His Word(The Bible), because he can't lie of the promises he gave to his people.
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Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 09/27/2007 6:09 AM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 09/26/2007 2:12 PM Posted By EEE on 09/25/2007 9:33 PM Posted By JAG on 09/25/2007 9:18 PM
I am sorry, but I feel its impossible for a Just Judge to condemn those who are of honest ignornace. That's fine, but Romans 2 and the rest of the Bible disagrees with you. You described an unbiblical picture of the Just Judge, which is defined in the bible. How would this Judge be what you call a Just Judge if he allows people in who broke the law? How would you feel if somebody killed your loved one, and was found not guilty because he came from another country and didn't know killing was wrong? Romans 2 does not disagree with me. Let me quote again: 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. To what is their Conscience bearing witness to? Who is it defending against? As for your point of a Just Judge. Yes that would be the correct term. I as a Christian should have no ill intentions against someone of ignorance.
Read the whole Chapter. It's explaining HOW can God Judge those who never heard the Law. Well, since people on a remote Island might never hear the Gospel or the Ten Commandments God is going to Judge the Conscience written to their heart. Of course since a person is unable to keep the Law written on their hearts or the Ten Commandments(Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God), they will perish if they don't have Christ to stand in place of their Sins.
If you read the next verse after 2:15 it says
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
I explain to people there are to ways to achieve salvation, Never breaking any laws God gave(ie. Ten commandments) which is impossible and scripture makes that clear. So now this leads to the only way for salvation, Believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and make him the Lord of your Life. That's the only way one can live with a Holy God in heaven, we have to be appear sinless via our life(which we can't do) or by our faith in Christ.
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Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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|  | Michelle
Posts:90
| | 09/27/2007 10:45 AM |
Alert | Does anyone else find these two statements ever-so slightly incongruous?
Instead of simply having an opinion, she is presenting hers in a egotistical, "I know I'm right and you're an idiot for believing otherwise" fashion, when in reality, BeerLeague doesn't actually know that her opinion is any more right than the one she is smearing.
It is utterly impossible for anyone to save themselves, you must accept Jesus' death on the cross.
The emphasis is not mine. | |
I used to be Chelle.
"Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich | |
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| | robinlynn
Posts:133
| | 09/27/2007 12:28 PM |
Alert |
Noel:
After reading what you wrote,
I just wanted to let you know that reading this
today brought tears to my eyes. That description was beautiful! Thank You. | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:477
| | 09/27/2007 2:05 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 09/27/2007 12:54 AM I'm not putting God in a box, I'm saying there are certain things that don't happen based on what I read. If I understand you correctly though, you are putting him in a box by saying that all must go to heaven because no one understands their sin. Did I misunderstand you? As for the man on the island, I believe that in some way, shape or form, God would get the message to him. Whether that be a book dropping out of the sky or God Himself talking to the guy, I don't think that there is anyone that doesn't have a choice due to ignorance. Why? Because it is His wish that none should perish. Yes, the law is written on man's heart, but the heart is wicked. Just because we know the law, does not mean we will follow the law. Only those who believe in Jesus will turn towards Him. I think this might just boil down to a simple misunderstanding and semantics issue. 
I think we are talking about the same thing. I do not believe that a normal sound person is incapable of not knowing they are performing a sin. They know what sin is, and some do not act on it. This is why St Paul said their conscience will be there witness.
Just like Moses, Abraham, or Noah or any of the old prophets. They knew the Christ thru His spirit and law, but not the person named Jesus. But they were rightous. God is a timeless being, what happens before Christ or after Christ is the same time for Him.
Back to the person on the insland. Your basically stating what I am stating. | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:477
| | 09/27/2007 2:07 PM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 09/27/2007 6:09 AM
Read the whole Chapter. It's explaining HOW can God Judge those who never heard the Law. Well, since people on a remote Island might never hear the Gospel or the Ten Commandments God is going to Judge the Conscience written to their heart. Of course since a person is unable to keep the Law written on their hearts or the Ten Commandments(Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God), they will perish if they don't have Christ to stand in place of their Sins.
So your saying that you cannot be rightous without Christ? | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:477
| | 09/27/2007 2:19 PM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 09/27/2007 5:54 AM Posted By JAG on 09/26/2007 2:29 PM
but God is not bound by the bible in anyway. At anytime He can change whatever rule He wants You're proving the more you post that your not letting God's Word speak, but rather you are speaking from your own understanding which is wrong. "For I the LORD do not change..." Malachi (3:6) "...God Cannot lie..." Titus 1:2 God is bound by His Word(The Bible), because he can't lie of the promises he gave to his people.
Again with the "God can't". God can do anything He wants period. You are incapable of stating what God can or cannot do. God has freewill just as you and I. It His rules, His covenant, His decision. Instead of attempting to say what God can or cannot do, you should be on your knees giving Him thanks for the last breath He gave you.
I am also not using my own understanding or interpretation. I am well within my Church’s doctrine and this has been the stance of the Church for the last 2000 yrs since St Paul himself made such a decision in his Gospel.
Also think about what you said as well. Did God lie to the people who were under the covenent of Abraham? Or Moses? How did Job know Christs name? | | | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 10/01/2007 8:37 AM |
Alert | Posted By JillyBean on 09/25/2007 2:24 PM
I am an atheist.. I do not believe in any god. I believe 100% in evolution.
That being said, if I live a "good" life.. If I'm kind to others and help where ever I can and if I try to never hurt anyone.. I still go to hell because I don't believe?
What about a serial killer who rapes and tortures children.. What if, a minute before the lethal injection goes in, he accept Jesus as his personal savior and asks forgiveness.. and he's truly sorry for what he's done. Does he still get to go to heaven?
If so, does this seem fair to you?
No, from a human viewpoint, it does not seem fair.
Your question is a great one ... and a very difficult one too. I will attempt to offer an explanation.
PHILOSOPHICAL
Since you believe that there is such a thing as good and evil, you must also believe that there is a standard by which to judge one from the other. In order for truth to be meaningful, there must ultimately be an absolute standard for the truth about good and evil; otherwise there is no consistency about what is good and what is evil.
THEOLOGICAL
Evil is the absence of that which is good. The ultimate good is freedom. All sin is evil by virtue of the fact that it abridges freedom and leaves things/people incomplete. This definition is given with respect to God's perfect standard, and hence any infringement has ramifications beyond the physical. Since the effects are more than physical, only God is even capable of correctly judging the intentions of anyone's heart.
It wasn't fair that God sent His only Son Jesus to pay the price for sin and die the horrible death that He did. Thankfully, since He is God, He was able to overcome this setback and defeat both sin and the grave and therefore extend that same benefit to those who believe.
Salvation is a free gift give by God to those who believe. No change is required by an individual BEFORE salvation, but change AFTER the point of salvation is inevitable, given a true conversion. Only God can know for sure, and the person themselves, whether or not the conversion is true. There is certainly evidence for changed lives, but since salvation is an eternal thing more than a temporal thing, God has the only final word in a matter such as this.
So, to answer your questions (the long way), yes.
-------------------------------------------------
Great question! This topic has been written about extensively by tons of philosophers, theologians, etc. I am a little bothered by Christianity's failure to address these kinds of topics in an intellectually satisfying way ... our culture(theist and not) does not seem to value philosophical discourse like it used to, which is essential to your question getting a satisfactory answer.
I'm certain that my answer is incomplete, but I believe that it is a decent start.
I hope that this post is helpful ... the question is so deep that it almost deserves its own book! | | | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 10/01/2007 8:51 AM |
Alert | Posted By JillyBean on 09/25/2007 8:29 PM
That's a good point which leads me to another question.
What if there is a tribe of native people living off the land in some remote island and they have never heard of Christianity. Will they go to hell?
Depends.
1. According to Romans 1:20, we are left "without excuse before God" based on "the divine nature and the invisible attributes of God, which are clearly evident in everything that has been created" (paraphrase).
2. Since we are "created in God's image", there is a sense of right and wrong inherent to the human mind, however "fallen" it has become.
3. God does not judge people on what they do not know.
While it is certainly effective to call on the name of Jesus for salvation, many Christians believe that Jesus is sure to reveal Himself to people who'll never hear His name in a way that we not only will not know about but probably would not understand. Bottom line, there has to be "right heart" inclined towards Christ in some way that is satisfying to Him. Though I struggle intellectually with this issue from time-to-time, I believe that God is Good and that He will certainly be fair to these kinds of people, as well as the rest of us.
For those who've heard the Gospel, they MUST call on Jesus for salvation ... God will do the right thing with regard to those who have not heard. | | | |
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| | Copa Conscious
Posts:379
| | 10/01/2007 9:37 AM |
Alert | I, for one, will sin like the devil every day of my life. I will be a death bed convert and accept your Jesus Christ as my own personal savior and slide right into heaven with you do-gooders.
I will also accept: Buddha, Allah, Joseph Smith, Ra, Zeus, Thetans, Varuna, Elohim, Neptune, Isis, Eros, and Cher, just in case one of the other religions was right. | | | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 10/01/2007 9:49 AM |
Alert | Posted By Copa Conscious on 10/01/2007 9:37 AM
I, for one, will sin like the devil every day of my life. I will be a death bed convert and accept your Jesus Christ as my own personal savior and slide right into heaven with you do-gooders.
Cool! Then you and I can sit beach side by the Crystal Sea and talk philosophy forever. Us and Jason, JAG, EEE and the rest. Won't that be great?! What you've always dreamed of!
Posted By Copa Conscious on 10/01/2007 9:37 AM
I will also accept: Buddha, Allah, Joseph Smith, Ra, Zeus, Thetans, Varuna, Elohim, Neptune, Isis, Eros, and Cher, just in case one of the other religions was right.
What about Cartman? I think he started a religion one season. | | | |
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| | Copa Conscious
Posts:379
| | 10/01/2007 9:57 AM |
Alert | | And Eric Cartman, just in case. | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:477
| | 10/01/2007 10:11 AM |
Alert | Don't forget the Flying Spaghetti Monster either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/01/2007 10:38 AM |
Alert | Posted By Michelle on 09/27/2007 10:45 AM Does anyone else find these two statements ever-so slightly incongruous? Instead of simply having an opinion, she is presenting hers in a egotistical, "I know I'm right and you're an idiot for believing otherwise" fashion, when in reality, BeerLeague doesn't actually know that her opinion is any more right than the one she is smearing. It is utterly impossible for anyone to save themselves, you must accept Jesus' death on the cross. The emphasis is not mine.
Eh...no. I'm not calling or insinuating that anyone is an idiot for believing otherwise. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Copa Conscious
Posts:379
| | 10/01/2007 10:40 AM |
Alert | | and the Great Pumpkin | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/01/2007 10:41 AM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 09/27/2007 2:19 PM Posted By EEE on 09/27/2007 5:54 AM Posted By JAG on 09/26/2007 2:29 PM
but God is not bound by the bible in anyway. At anytime He can change whatever rule He wants You're proving the more you post that your not letting God's Word speak, but rather you are speaking from your own understanding which is wrong. "For I the LORD do not change..." Malachi (3:6) "...God Cannot lie..." Titus 1:2 God is bound by His Word(The Bible), because he can't lie of the promises he gave to his people. Again with the "God can't". God can do anything He wants period. You are incapable of stating what God can or cannot do.
This is not true. God Himself said that he cannot lie. Are you going to argue with God? Who are you to tell God that he can lie? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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