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| | Author | Messages | |
drummer72
Posts:3886
 | | 10/01/2007 1:17 PM |
 Alert | | Bottomline: People are afraid of the unknown. They either try and deal with it or pretend it doesn't exist. | |
"Everything for everyone and nothing for ourselves" | |
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| | JAG
Posts:689
| | 10/01/2007 3:01 PM |
Alert | Veritas,
There are sound and valid reasons for Homosexuality in nature. It exists in almost all social mammals and birds. For instance:
2 Brother Wolves, they both have type a persona, this means they will both fight to be with the alpha female. Enter the homosexual variance and now you have 2 brothers both type a, but not fighting for the prime female. So this means the heterosexual Wolfe now has a type a comrade to defend the pack and keep him the alpha male. It can be a genetic trait to promote ones genes to the next generation.
What physical health hazard are you talking about?
Finally for me it’s not the actual act of homosexual sex that is a sin. It’s the act of sex outside of valid marriage that is the sin. Having sex with the same sex is not more a sin then committing adultery or premarital sex. I know your not arguing that we are any better then anyone else, I am just trying to clarify.
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/01/2007 3:08 PM |
Alert | Finally for me it’s not the actual act of homosexual sex that is a sin. It’s the act of sex outside of valid marriage that is the sin. Having sex with the same sex is not more a sin then committing adultery or premarital sex. I know your not arguing that we are any better then anyone else, I am just trying to clarify.
It's actually 2 sins in one. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | JAG
Posts:689
| | 10/01/2007 3:17 PM |
Alert | Well we will have to keep that debate to later.
But do 2 sins matter anymore then 1? | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/01/2007 3:44 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 10/01/2007 3:17 PM
Well we will have to keep that debate to later.
But do 2 sins matter anymore then 1?
Apparently to God, they do, otherwise He wouldn't have mentioned it.  | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | JAG
Posts:689
| | 10/01/2007 4:16 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/01/2007 3:44 PM Apparently to God, they do, otherwise He wouldn't have mentioned it. 
Where? | | | |
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|  | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/01/2007 5:27 PM |
Alert | | Leviticus 18:22 You must not have sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman; it is a detestable act. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | EEE
Posts:398
| | 10/01/2007 6:07 PM |
Alert | Posted By Veritas on 09/26/2007 12:12 PM
With regard to the rhetoric, "God hates the sin but loves the sinner", this is based on the clear teaching of Scripture that
Where in scripture can you find "God hates the sin but loves the sinner"? This is a man made doctrine and is flourishing in the evangelical community.
Psalms 5:5
"The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers." (ESV)
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. " (KJV)
Notice it doesn't say, God hates the evil, but rather it does say God hates the doer of evil. It doesn't mean love less either.
Mal 1:3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
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Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:365
| | 10/01/2007 6:13 PM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 10/01/2007 6:07 PM
With regard to the rhetoric, "God hates the sin but loves the sinner", this is based on the clear teaching of Scripture that
Where in scripture can you find "God hates the sin but loves the sinner"? This is a man made doctrine and is flourishing in the evangelical community.
EEE, before you flame out, pay close attention to the term "rhetoric". The rhetoric that I speak of is "based" on some clear teachings of Scripture. I DID NOT say that the Bible states it verbatim; however, God does hate sin while at the same time showing love for "sinners" by virtue of the sacrifice that He has made through the cross. | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:398
| | 10/01/2007 6:22 PM |
Alert | Posted By Veritas on 10/01/2007 6:13 PM Posted By EEE on 10/01/2007 6:07 PM
With regard to the rhetoric, "God hates the sin but loves the sinner", this is based on the clear teaching of Scripture that
Where in scripture can you find "God hates the sin but loves the sinner"? This is a man made doctrine and is flourishing in the evangelical community. EEE, before you flame out, pay close attention to the term "rhetoric". The rhetoric that I speak of is "based" on some clear teachings of Scripture. I DID NOT say that the Bible states it verbatim; however, God does hate sin while at the same time showing love for "sinners" by virtue of the sacrifice that He has made through the cross.
No flaming, it was a question. I still slightly disagree with you.
Christ died to save all the sinners
This is not found in scripture, what is found is God died to save who the Father gave him. God didn't die for every sinner who ever lived, only those who were chosen before the foundation of the world. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:365
| | 10/01/2007 6:41 PM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 10/01/2007 6:22 PM Posted By Veritas on 10/01/2007 6:13 PM Posted By EEE on 10/01/2007 6:07 PM
With regard to the rhetoric, "God hates the sin but loves the sinner", this is based on the clear teaching of Scripture that
Where in scripture can you find "God hates the sin but loves the sinner"? This is a man made doctrine and is flourishing in the evangelical community. EEE, before you flame out, pay close attention to the term "rhetoric". The rhetoric that I speak of is "based" on some clear teachings of Scripture. I DID NOT say that the Bible states it verbatim; however, God does hate sin while at the same time showing love for "sinners" by virtue of the sacrifice that He has made through the cross. No flaming, it was a question. I still slightly disagree with you.
Christ died to save all the sinners
This is not found in scripture, what is found is God died to save who the Father gave him. God didn't die for every sinner who ever lived, only those who were chosen before the foundation of the world.
Ah yes, Calvinism ... so either you are saved from all eternity or you are damned from all eternity. The fault in Calvinistic logic is that sovereignty and free will cannot coexist. By way of analogy, the law of aerodynamics is free to overcome the law of gravity, given sufficient energy resources.
When the Bible says, "God so loved the world that whosoever...", it clearly means that God really loved the world SO MUCH, that whoever would believe would be saved. Yes, not everyone will believe because they are free not too, but this does not mean that He was not willing and therefore "loving" them enough to save them.
If the Word of God is true ... and it is, then ALL of it has to add up to the same truth. It's like saying that 2 plus 2 is only 4 unless you have an extremely large or small value of 2. You can't pick and choose the verses that you have and pretend that God hates people BEFORE they decided to hate Him.
And BTW, Romans 5:8 states clearly, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
QED
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| | Noel
Posts:42
| | 10/01/2007 6:44 PM |
Alert | | It is important to remind everyone in this discussion to ultimately look to the Lord for these answers. We can have fun talking about odd questions but we are not God so it is that we cannot actually answer. One thing we can do is pray for those who are lost from the vision of God and who do not know or beleive that Jesus is the saviour of every man woman and child on this planet. We can pray for you who speak like Veritas and who are more concerned with inflating the ego but not the spirit. We can pray for the one who started this thread that he come to know God through the Word of Jesus. We can then end those prayers and go back to our daily lifes where we should be most concerned. And when each of us die some of us will go to heaven and some of us will not be seen by the Lord for eternity. I am okay with this and if you do not want to go to heaven I'm sure your desire will be fullfilled. Sleep on that one tonight! | | | |
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| | drummer72
Posts:3886
| | 10/01/2007 6:57 PM |
Alert | Posted By Noel on 10/01/2007 6:44 PM
It is important to remind everyone in this discussion to ultimately look to the Lord for these answers. We can have fun talking about odd questions but we are not God so it is that we cannot actually answer. One thing we can do is pray for those who are lost from the vision of God and who do not know or beleive that Jesus is the saviour of every man woman and child on this planet. We can pray for you who speak like Veritas and who are more concerned with inflating the ego but not the spirit. We can pray for the one who started this thread that he come to know God through the Word of Jesus. We can then end those prayers and go back to our daily lifes where we should be most concerned. And when each of us die some of us will go to heaven and some of us will not be seen by the Lord for eternity. I am okay with this and if you do not want to go to heaven I'm sure your desire will be fullfilled. Sleep on that one tonight!
I started this thread and I KNOW God. What's wrong with asking a question? God doesn't like questions?? It's people like you that turn me off, when it comes to organized religion. If there's more than one way to skin a cat, than there has to be countless ways to worship God.
Some people have to question religion in order to believe. I was baptised catholic, but I'm not too happy with the catholic church. I'm still "searching". And in that process I may have questions that YOU find offensive.
So I WILL sleep good tonight, thanks!
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"Everything for everyone and nothing for ourselves" | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:365
| | 10/01/2007 7:05 PM |
Alert | Posted By Noel on 10/01/2007 6:44 PM
It is important to remind everyone in this discussion to ultimately look to the Lord for these answers. We can have fun talking about odd questions but we are not God so it is that we cannot actually answer. One thing we can do is pray for those who are lost from the vision of God and who do not know or beleive that Jesus is the saviour of every man woman and child on this planet. We can pray for you who speak like Veritas and who are more concerned with inflating the ego but not the spirit. We can pray for the one who started this thread that he come to know God through the Word of Jesus. We can then end those prayers and go back to our daily lifes where we should be most concerned. And when each of us die some of us will go to heaven and some of us will not be seen by the Lord for eternity. I am okay with this and if you do not want to go to heaven I'm sure your desire will be fullfilled. Sleep on that one tonight!
Noel, I agree with you in part ... but how can I inflate my ego through this discourse when no one really knows who I am? Who is there to be impressed? So far, no one has given any kudos nor do I care, because that's NOT why I post ... I look at the questions and issues as deadly serious and work hard to give serious answers to important questions. Perhaps someone else has an ego problem and wants to be seen as "taking the high road"?
We can know the answers to these questions because God has revealed Himself through His Word and through His Son Jesus Christ.
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| | Noel
Posts:42
| | 10/01/2007 7:16 PM |
Alert | Posted By drummer72 on 10/01/2007 6:57 PM Posted By Noel on 10/01/2007 6:44 PM
It is important to remind everyone in this discussion to ultimately look to the Lord for these answers. We can have fun talking about odd questions but we are not God so it is that we cannot actually answer. One thing we can do is pray for those who are lost from the vision of God and who do not know or beleive that Jesus is the saviour of every man woman and child on this planet. We can pray for you who speak like Veritas and who are more concerned with inflating the ego but not the spirit. We can pray for the one who started this thread that he come to know God through the Word of Jesus. We can then end those prayers and go back to our daily lifes where we should be most concerned. And when each of us die some of us will go to heaven and some of us will not be seen by the Lord for eternity. I am okay with this and if you do not want to go to heaven I'm sure your desire will be fullfilled. Sleep on that one tonight! I started this thread and I KNOW God. What's wrong with asking a question? God doesn't like questions?? It's people like you that turn me off, when it comes to organized religion. If there's more than one way to skin a cat, than there has to be countless ways to worship God. Some people have to question religion in order to believe. I was baptised catholic, but I'm not too happy with the catholic church. I'm still "searching". And in that process I may have questions that YOU find offensive. So I WILL sleep good tonight, thanks!
I see I have offended you and did not mean for this to be the case. To me who sees so easily it sometimes is forgotten that some are very lost. I see you like the humble old mental handicap man who cannot find his shoes though he has worn shoes his entire life. You tell me that you are raised with God but cannot find God! And it is true that I did laugh at you for this which was wrong of me. I do like the questions you raise but I am not stupid and can tell when you are no longer taking a subject with a serious nature. It is people like you that "turn me off" to secularism. And this is for good reason because I see how it makes you angry and suffer. Go find your shoes old man. And if jokes are good for you then jokes are good for me. Never chastise me again as I will always stand up to you. Jesus has produce limitless courage in my heart and much wisdom in my mind. Do not bait with cynicism and switch to seriousness when it so suites you or I will reveal you for the fool who cannot find his own shoes! Two can play this game.
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| | EEE
Posts:398
| | 10/01/2007 7:17 PM |
Alert | Posted By Veritas on 10/01/2007 6:41 PM
Ah yes, Calvinism ... so either you are saved from all eternity or you are damned from all eternity. The fault in Calvinistic logic is that sovereignty and free will cannot coexist. By way of analogy, the law of aerodynamics is free to overcome the law of gravity, given sufficient energy resources.
Actually, the fault in arminiamism or semi-pelagianism is they have promoted the idea of free-will, that is not taught in the bible.
The idea that God's sovereignty is undermined by man's free will takes away the Glory from God who is the author and finisher of our faith.
When the Bible says, "God so loved the world that whosoever...", it clearly means that God really loved the world SO MUCH, that whoever would believe would be saved. Yes, not everyone will believe because they are free not too, but this does not mean that He was not willing and therefore "loving" them enough to save them.
If the Word of God is true ... and it is, then ALL of it has to add up to the same truth. It's like saying that 2 plus 2 is only 4 unless you have an extremely large or small value of 2. You can't pick and choose the verses that you have and pretend that God hates people BEFORE they decided to hate Him.
Yes, the Bible is clear and true through out and whoever believes will be saved. But how does one get to the point of believing?
Read John 6 for the answer. Tell me the reason Jesus gave the Jews for the reason they didn't believe in him.
And BTW, Romans 5:8 states clearly, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Who is the "us"? Well lets look who Paul is talking to:
Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The us is those who have been justified by faith.
How about you be less condescending especially when discussing the bible. Nobody is attacking you.
Grace and peace,
Eph 1:4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Soli De Gloria
| |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
|
| | Noel
Posts:42
| | 10/01/2007 7:23 PM |
Alert | Posted By Veritas on 10/01/2007 7:05 PM Posted By Noel on 10/01/2007 6:44 PM
It is important to remind everyone in this discussion to ultimately look to the Lord for these answers. We can have fun talking about odd questions but we are not God so it is that we cannot actually answer. One thing we can do is pray for those who are lost from the vision of God and who do not know or beleive that Jesus is the saviour of every man woman and child on this planet. We can pray for you who speak like Veritas and who are more concerned with inflating the ego but not the spirit. We can pray for the one who started this thread that he come to know God through the Word of Jesus. We can then end those prayers and go back to our daily lifes where we should be most concerned. And when each of us die some of us will go to heaven and some of us will not be seen by the Lord for eternity. I am okay with this and if you do not want to go to heaven I'm sure your desire will be fullfilled. Sleep on that one tonight! Noel, I agree with you in part ... but how can I inflate my ego through this discourse when no one really knows who I am? Who is there to be impressed? So far, no one has given any kudos nor do I care, because that's NOT why I post ... I look at the questions and issues as deadly serious and work hard to give serious answers to important questions. Perhaps someone else has an ego problem and wants to be seen as "taking the high road"? We can know the answers to these questions because God has revealed Himself through His Word and through His Son Jesus Christ.
The adulation you require does in itself not require open public notation of your government identity, Mr. Veritas. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 10/01/2007 7:39 PM |
Alert | | I already went toe-to-toe with EEE on this one, you're going to lose. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | BeerLeague2
Posts:111
| | 10/01/2007 7:41 PM |
Alert | | I love it when the religious folk fight among themselves. It's so...um....loving and tolerant and....ummm...Christian-like! | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:398
| | 10/01/2007 7:44 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 10/01/2007 7:39 PM I already went toe-to-toe with EEE on this one, you're going to lose.
LOL, just curious....have you personally studied more on those doctrines since then and where do you stand right now? | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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