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| | Author | Messages | |
joe_2007
Posts:83
 | | 09/11/2007 7:24 AM |
 Alert | ## I respectfully request that Non-LDS members please refrain from posting to this thread. ##
If you need to complain about this disclaimer, please do so on the Compalints about Joe's Disclamer thread. If you have any questions or comments, please send them to me by Personal Message (PM). I welcome all input, and I will post any constructive questions or comments to the public thread. I do not want to exclude anyone and I certainly do not want to offend anyone. Please contact me and I will explain this disclaimer in full.
LDS members please send me a PM with any questions that you may feel that you cannot ask in a public forum.
I will respect your need for annonimity and any questions that I think are constructive for the group to hear will be added to the public thread anonimously.
With the disclaimer out of the way, I would like to start off by saying that I am not an LDS member, but I have been reading the Book of Mormon and I would like to talk to you about some questions that I have. I know that some of you feel that you are at times attacked on this forum. I would like to assure you that is not my intention. I know that some of you will say that I should ask such questions of the missionaries who come by my house, "they will be happy to answer all your questions." The missionaries cannot answer for you. I would like your opinion and thoughts on the forthcoming topics. There will be several threads if all goes well. I respectfully look forward to your comments and questions. If you feel that I have posted any misinformation at any time, please let me know immediately. After checking my sources again, if there is incorrect information I will immediately edit and/or remove the post so that the misinformation is not propagated. I ask that in correcting me, that you will point me to the correct information sources to speed up my research.
Thank you, Joe.
My first question is have you read the Book of Mormon and do you believe it?
The introduction to the Book of Mormon says this in paragraph 1:
The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.
Do you agree with the statement that the BOM and the Bible contain the "fullness of the everlasting gospel"?
What do the terms "fullness" and "everlasting mean to you?
That is all for now. I will read through the responses and then continue on with the discussion. I would like this to be a friendly and open discussion, as if we were all in the same room. By the way, may I refer to the Book of Mormon as the BOM? It will save typing, but I do not want to sound disrespectful.
Thank you. | | | |
| | qwerty
Posts:135
| | 09/11/2007 8:18 PM |
Alert | Joe,
I commend you in your openness in studying the Book of Mormon and seeking others input as well.
I have read both the Bible and the Book of Mormon several times throughout my life and firmly believe both to be the word of God. They are very complimentary and as stated “contain the fullness of the everlasting gospel.” To me, fullness means they contain all the principles and ordnances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (e.g., Faith, Baptism, Repentance, the Atonement, Charity, etc.) that we need to learn in this life. So, as opposed to simply containing pieces of the Gospel, they contain the “fullness” of the Gospel. I hope that doesn’t sound too simplistic, but that’s how I interpret it.
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 09/12/2007 7:19 AM |
Alert | Qwerty,
Thank you for your response. I was hoping to get many others.
Here is quote that may help define the "fullness of the everlasting gospel".
"Fullness of the Gospel. By fullness of the gospel is meant all the ordinances and principles that pertain to the exhaltaion in the celetial kingdom..." (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 160, Joseph Fielding Smith)
So you and Joseph Fielding Smith are in agreement.
To me, if a truth is "everlasting", then it will always be true. Would you agree?
The sixth paragraph also says this:
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
So here are five new questions to continue.
1. Do you agree that the BOM is the most correct book on Earth?
2. What does it mean that it is the cornerstone of the LDS religion?
3. Do you believe that you can get closer to God by abiding the precepts of the Book of Mormon than by any other book?
4. If the Bible and the Book of Mormon are in agreement on any given subject, would you conclude then that this subject must be a true doctrine or principle?
5.Conversely, if anything contradicts the Bible and the Book of Mormon on that point, then the contradictory material must be false doctrine. Would this be a true statement?
Thank you again for talking with me. | | | |
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| | drummer72
Posts:3137
| | 09/12/2007 11:41 AM |
Alert | | Don't discriminate because one is non LDS. Anyone can post here. | |
I'd rather live one day as a lion, than my whole life as a lamb. | |
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| | qwerty
Posts:135
| | 09/12/2007 1:38 PM |
Alert | 1. Do you agree that the BOM is the most correct book on Earth?
Short answer, Yes. Does that mean I don’t believe the bible to be correct...A resounding No. This question is probably one that would be easier to discuss outside of a forum setting to make sure it’s not misunderstood. :-)
2. What does it mean that it is the cornerstone of the LDS religion?
The Book of Mormon is the cornerstone of the LDS religion because if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a true prophet. If Joseph Smith was a true prophet, then the Church and priesthood restored through him is the true priesthood of God. Thus, if the Book of Mormon is true, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Days Saints is Christ’s restored Church on the earth.
3. Do you believe that you can get closer to God by abiding the precepts of the Book of Mormon than by any other book?
Again, short answer, Yes. But to make sure this doesn’t sound like I’m taking away from the importance of the Bible, I believe the principles in the Book of Mormon can lead one to an even better understanding of the Bible. Please note that Joseph Smith’s statement is not excluding the Bible from importance. The Bible is still very much a key part of the cannon of scripture within the LDS faith and always has been since it’s creation. The LDS faith would be incomplete without the Bible.
4. If the Bible and the Book of Mormon are in agreement on any given subject, would you conclude then that this subject must be a true doctrine or principle?
Definitely.
5.Conversely, if anything contradicts the Bible and the Book of Mormon on that point, then the contradictory material must be false doctrine. Would this be a true statement?
To make sure I understand your question, you are saying if something outside both the Bible and Book of Mormon contradict them then this would be false doctrine? If so, yes.
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| | SourApple
Posts:24
| | 09/12/2007 1:47 PM |
Alert | | The book of Mormon and the Bible are not complimentary. The divide is great on topics such as: who Jesus is, who God is, issues of salvation, issues of faith, and issues of what happens after one dies. I think to say that these books compliment each other is incorrect. | | | |
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|  | love@hm
Posts:476
| | 09/12/2007 1:57 PM |
Alert | I had a nice post all ready, but in the middle of writing it I had to go pick up my kids from school – I think my log-in timed out, because all the sudden I wasn’t authorized to post. . .
Anyway, here we are again – hopefully it will take less time. I’m also hoping this thread really does stay nice, which I believe is the OP intention. . .
My first question is have you read the Book of Mormon and do you believe it?
Yes I have. I am also currently reading it with my family.
Do you agree with the statement that the BOM and the Bible contain the "fullness of the everlasting gospel"?
What do the terms "fullness" and "everlasting mean to you?
I do believe together they contain the fullness of the everlasting gospel. That that means to me is they contain everything that is necessary to help us return to HF (Heavenly Father). They will not change – the gospel will not change.
1. Do you agree that the BOM is the most correct book on Earth?
Yes. We have what we believe to be clarification of portions of the Bible, where it was translated so many times that clarification was needed. However, it is clarification and all of these verses are congruent with the other teachings and principles of the Bible.
2. What does it mean that it is the cornerstone of the LDS religion?
The BOM hold within it the gospel of Jesus Christ. Our church is based completely on His teachings. We believe the BOM adds to the Bible – not in teachings, but in elaboration. It expounds on things where the Bible does not. Still they are in complete agreement.
3. Do you believe that you can get closer to God by abiding the precepts of the Book of Mormon than by any other book?
The BOM teaches us to humble ourselves and beware of pride. It teaches us to repent of our sins, to serve our fellow men, and to love HF and Jesus Christ. By living those precepts I am bound to become closer to HF . . . I am certain any Christian would agree that by following these precepts we are able to become closer to God. I also know when I read the BOM I have more peace in my life, more clarity in my thought, and feel a greater closeness to HF.
I believe the BOM was given to us when it was because it pertains so greatly to the world today. I believe it was written for us and given to us by HF so we can read what we need to hear the most NOW. This is not to say the Bible is ‘out of date’ because it isn’t – not in anyway, but the BOM is written for us, which makes it special in its own way – This is not to say it is more important than the Bible – because it isn’t.
4. If the Bible and the Book of Mormon are in agreement on any given subject, would you conclude then that this subject must be a true doctrine or principle?
It is through prayer and meditation that I have come to believe the BOM and Bible are the word of God. I believe prayer is essential in all aspects of determining whether or not a subject is true. I do believe what is in the BOM and Bible to be true, and when they are in agreement, I would assume a topic to be a true doctrine or principle, but I also believe there is an importance of prayer in all doctrines and principles – it is through prayer, study and meditation I decide what is right and what isn’t – although, I’ve never had them be ‘wrong’ yet!
5.Conversely, if anything contradicts the Bible and the Book of Mormon on that point, then the contradictory material must be false doctrine. Would this be a true statement?
Generally speaking – yes. However, I would still pray about them, and pray for understanding in how they are contradictory. I would pray to understand what is ACTUALLY being taught by HF – not just what is mostly understood. If the prophet starts spouting things that are contradictory to the scriptures I would be very, very worried, HOWEVER – we believe that cannot happen, that prophets will be struck down if they teach false doctrine. (someone back me up with a reference – or I’ll have to find it – can’t remember it at the moment. . . ) We also believe we must PRAY and determine for ourselves what is right and what it wrong. We are not taught to follow in blind faith.
I was born as a member of the church. I have always been a ‘good Mormon’. I have reflected at times about the truthfulness of the church’s teachings. I have wondered, “Is there a god?” I have not done this in times of stress, but in quiet times when it is appropriate to meditate on these subjects. The second I wonder if there is a god – I know the answer – it comes full, and powerfully. I get the same feeling when I wonder if the teachings of the church are true. The spirit testifies to me. When I follow the principles of the gospel – I have clarity of thought, peace of mind, and so many more blessings in my life. My days run smoother. I simply KNOW it is right. I am not a scriptorian. I don’t know all the answers, but I KNOW there are living prophets on the earth today. I KNOW together the BOM and the Bible contain the fullness of the gospel. I KNOW Jesus Christ is the son of God. I know He bled in the garden and died on the cross for ME. I know he rose on the 3rd day and walked from the tomb, and I KNOW he visited the Americas as well. I KNOW He is my Redeemer, my Savior and my best friend.
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 09/12/2007 5:03 PM |
Alert | Thanks to Qwerty and love@hm for the responses. Let summarize before moving on.
The Book of Mormon and the Bible contain the "fullness of the everlasting gospel", which means they contain the entire unchanging truth on which the LDS religion is based. If anything contraidicts a principle on which these two book agree on, then that contradictory principle is false doctrine.
Love@hm also added:
"If the prophet starts spouting things that are contradictory to the scriptures I would be very, very worried, HOWEVER – we believe that cannot happen, that prophets will be struck down if they teach false doctrine. (someone back me up with a reference – or I’ll have to find it – can’t remember it at the moment. . . ) We also believe we must PRAY and determine for ourselves what is right and what it wrong. We are not taught to follow in blind faith. "
There are plenty of references. Like:
2 Peter 2
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
So now lets see what the Bible and the BOM say about certain doctrine. I am going to spawn a new thread for each topic that we discuss. I will start with the doctrine of God. Look for the new thread coming soon.
Thank you all.
Joe
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 09/12/2007 6:02 PM |
Alert | | Thanks. | | | |
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| | Bitter Larry
Posts:6
| | 09/12/2007 6:14 PM |
Alert | I don't mean this to be antagonistic in any way, and it's obvious from your approach that you are not trying to be - just had a few questions for you. Judging from your other posts on this forum, it seems that you have very strong beliefs and (I'm guessing) believe that the Book of Mormon is NOT the word of God. If that is the case, it appears that this thread is an attempt to prove that certain LDS doctrines cannot be true if they disagree with things that are said in both the Bible and Book of Mormon ("If anything contraidicts a principle on which these two book agree on, then that contradictory principle is false doctrine.") I'm guessing that you are about to move on to "false doctrine" - am I wrong? I'm just honestly curious as to whether you are going through this process because you a) are interested in deciding for yourself if the Book of Mormon is/isn't true, b) have already decided that it's not true and are trying to turn LDS members away from "false doctrine," c) are just interested in what LDS people believe for your own information, or d) something else?
I don't post here often and don't feel that this forum is really the place for me (notice, I said me - maybe it works for some people) to have deep doctrinal discussions, so I'm not really interested in getting to a religious debate here. I was just curious as to where you are going with this and why, being LDS myself. All the best - certainly not questioning your character or good intentions - just wondered where you're coming from. I find it fascinating myself to learn about the beliefs of others (but again, personally, I like to have those discussions in person - that's just me). | | | |
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| | sarahc
Posts:631
| | 09/12/2007 8:19 PM |
Alert | Technically I guess I qualify to post here as I am still a baptized member of the LDS church. I have officially petitioned the church to remove my name from the church and some how they have managed to loose my letter twice! Currently if I had to be shoved into a category I guess I would call my self an atheist.
My first question is have you read the Book of Mormon and do you believe it?
Yes. I have read the Book of Mormon once in its entirety, before I made the choice to join the church at 16, and once in bits and pieces to try and get a better understanding as I was preparing myself to leave the church.
I thought I once believed it but now I see that I was blind sided by other feelings... so I guess the short answer is no I do not believe in the Book of Mormon or the bible for that matter.
Do you agree with the statement that the BOM and the Bible contain the "fullness of the everlasting gospel"?
No. see above for reason.
While I am not a theology major I have taken classes and done independent research on many religions including LDS and have come to one simple conclusion about the Book of Mormon. I do not believe that that Bible is a true testament of Jesus. I believe that the book is simply manufactured by a group of men who selected teachings to be included. They excluded other teachings that did not fit into there mold. The Book of Mormon is supposed to serve as another testament of Jesus Christ and I just can’t believe that if I don’t think there was a first...
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| | neutneaz
Posts:51
| | 09/12/2007 9:41 PM |
Alert | | Sour...I agree with you. One HUGE difference is on how we get to Heaven. I was married to a man raised LDS. He had never heard of having to have Jesus as our Savior and that the ONLY way to heaven is through Him. | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:476
| | 09/12/2007 11:24 PM |
Alert | I don't think I'll be posting here anymore - but I DO want to comment the LDS belief of the Savior and getting to Heaven.
W/O the Savior we cannot reach eternal salvation (what the general Christian population would call heaven). It is only through the Savior that we can be forgiven our sins and return to live with HF. Jesus Christ is the #1 main focus of our religion. Our belief in hell is where we would differ - NOT heaven. . . at least that is how I look at it.
I really don't feel this forum is the most open or willing for these discussions - and I am actually sorry I posted earlier.
For anyone interested in learning more about our belief of Heaven and Hell - visit:
www.mormon.org
for those looking for information on the more contraversial points you can find info at:
www.fairlds.org
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| | qwerty
Posts:135
| | 09/13/2007 8:36 AM |
Alert | | I agree with love@hm. These type of discussions always turn to be more accusatory in nature and everyone else is so convinced that THEY know what the LDS believe. "neutneaz", if your husband was really LDS then he obviously didn't study anything. The Book of Mormon teaches several times that Christ is the one and only way to Heaven. To say that LDS members don't believe Christ is our Saviour is 100% NOT TRUE. I've had this discussion several times on this forum, so it's probably pointless for me to say it again, but it just really frustrates me when others claim to know what I believe. I KNOW that Christ is our Saviour and the ONLY way to heaven. And that regardless of what we do, Christ is the way we are going to get to heaven. We cannot get there on our own and LDS faith does NOT teach that...EVER. I know some of you are going to reply that the LDS faith teaches to "work out our own Salvation" and I have this debate on this forum as well. If you really understood what that statement means, you would know that it does not take anything away from the Atonement of Christ and I don't really feel like dragging this debate out yet again. Say and speculate what you want about the LDS faith, claim we're not Christians or that we believe in the wrong Christ. It doesn't change what we believe. | | | |
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 10/16/2007 11:08 PM |
Alert | Posted By qwerty on 09/13/2007 8:36 AM
I agree with love@hm. These type of discussions always turn to be more accusatory in nature and everyone else is so convinced that THEY know what the LDS believe. "neutneaz", if your husband was really LDS then he obviously didn't study anything. The Book of Mormon teaches several times that Christ is the one and only way to Heaven. To say that LDS members don't believe Christ is our Saviour is 100% NOT TRUE. I've had this discussion several times on this forum, so it's probably pointless for me to say it again, but it just really frustrates me when others claim to know what I believe. I KNOW that Christ is our Saviour and the ONLY way to heaven. And that regardless of what we do, Christ is the way we are going to get to heaven. We cannot get there on our own and LDS faith does NOT teach that...EVER. I know some of you are going to reply that the LDS faith teaches to "work out our own Salvation" and I have this debate on this forum as well. If you really understood what that statement means, you would know that it does not take anything away from the Atonement of Christ and I don't really feel like dragging this debate out yet again. Say and speculate what you want about the LDS faith, claim we're not Christians or that we believe in the wrong Christ. It doesn't change what we believe.
Love@hm and Qwerty,
I am sorry for the delay in this posting. I am also sorry to hear that you will not be part of the further discussion. I hope that you will at least continue to tune in.
As for your last two posts, this leads me forward to the next topic. Salvation. You both say that Jesus is necessary, but I don't see that either of you say that He alone is sufficient. This will be the topic of my next thread.
Bitter Larry,
All that I am doing is trying to get LDS members to read there scriptures and think about what they mean and the conclusions that they lead to.
Thank you,
Joe | | | |
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| | leroyleroy
Posts:35
| | 10/18/2007 11:41 AM |
Alert | | I would like to go visit some of the places in the bom. Why can I not locate any of them like I can in the Bible? | | | |
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| | Copa Conscious
Posts:379
| | 10/18/2007 11:45 AM |
Alert | Posted By leroyleroy on 10/18/2007 11:41 AM
I would like to go visit some of the places in the bom. Why can I not locate any of them like I can in the Bible?
The same reason you can't find Hansel & Grettel's house or the land of Far Far Away. They are cute little stories. | | | |
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| | leroyleroy
Posts:35
| | 10/18/2007 11:52 AM |
Alert | | The bom is a nice fairy tail - isn't it. | | | |
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| | alanf
Posts:1462
| | 10/18/2007 12:15 PM |
Alert | | Why would Mormons be ringing my freaking door bell at 8:30PM? | | | |
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| | Copa Conscious
Posts:379
| | 10/18/2007 12:33 PM |
Alert | | They want to save you, SINNER! | | | |
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