 |
Business Directory |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Coupons |
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
Classifieds |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
| | Author | Messages | |
Jason
Posts:3378
 | | 07/13/2007 12:13 AM |
 Alert | Posted By TortosaGuy on 07/12/2007 9:16 PM
just my opinion on this topic.....but in the past...people created gods or a god for things that were unexplainable to them....
What makes you think people created them?
and organized religion specifically....has instilled a fear in society that if you dont do certain things or act a certain way that GOD will get you somehow....but he loves you...(kinda reminds me of a george carlin bit)....
Sounds a lot like parents... | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
|
| | Michelle
Posts:102
| | 07/13/2007 7:46 PM |
Alert | It's called "blind faith" for a reason, people. It isn't based on logic, let alone science or any other historical or empirical evidence ... so why pretend otherwise? Why not admit that it's something you believe simply because you were taught to believe it? There is no legitimate, comprehensive, irrefutable "proof" that you can offer in favor of the existence of God or infallibility of the Bible, so these increasingly desperate attempts to appeal to the historical record (which supports some of the details depicted in the Bible, but cannot and does not speak to the divinity of Christ) do little more than expose your bias.
The "default" position on any subject is negative. A book is fiction even if it is marketed as truth until the details it contains can be independently verified. Even science recognizes that a theory can never be more than the community's best educated guess. You can disprove a theory, because if it fails under even one controlled set of circumstances than it can be dismissed forever, but you can never truly prove it because even if it tests true a hundred times, there is always the possibility that it will fail the the hundred and first time it is tested.
That said, atheism is not the belief that God does not exist, but rather the lack of belief that "He" does. It is the default position, so it requires no faith. This is the point that Trogdor is trying so eloquently — and so patiently! — to make. Believing in an invisible, orbital teacup in the absence of any evidence in its favor requires faith. Not believing in it ... does not.
| |
I used to be Chelle.
"Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich | |
|
| | Michelle
Posts:102
| | 07/13/2007 7:47 PM |
Alert | I think this quote from tirobinson's post is wonderfully representative of the Christian perspective:
"Trust in Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding!"
In other words: "Don't think! Just believe." | |
I used to be Chelle.
"Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich | |
|
| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/13/2007 7:53 PM |
Alert | Posted By Michelle on 07/13/2007 7:47 PM
I think this quote from tirobinson's post is wonderfully representative of the Christian perspective:
"Trust in Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding!"
In other words: "Don't think! Just believe."
Wrong interpretation. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
|
| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/13/2007 8:03 PM |
Alert | Posted By Michelle on 07/13/2007 7:46 PM
A book is fiction even if it is marketed as truth until the details it contains can be independently verified.
No. A book is fiction/non-fiction regardless of what we can prove/disprove about it. It doesn't suddenly become non-fiction when someone proves its contents to be true. It was always non-fiction.
That said, atheism is not the belief that God does not exist, but rather the lack of belief that "He" does. It is the default position, so it requires no faith.
But there are beliefs in multiple gods, not just a single god. So yes, atheists have a lack of belief in a single god of any kind. You'd also agree that they lack belief multiple gods. So it sounds like they have no belief, no faith right? Wrong:
"faith
n.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See synonyms at belief, trust."
Atheists believe that there is no higher power involved in creating the universe. It is a belief because they do not have an explanation for how the universe came to be. They have faith that they made the right decision.
So yes, if you stick to your narrow definition of faith, then no, they have no faith. But it turns out, you can in fact have faith in a lack of something's existence. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
|
| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 07/13/2007 8:20 PM |
Alert | Posted By Michelle on 07/13/2007 7:47 PM
I think this quote from tirobinson's post is wonderfully representative of the Christian perspective:
"Trust in Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding!"
In other words: "Don't think! Just believe."
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
| |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
|
|  | cvangilder
Posts:16
|
| 07/13/2007 8:24 PM |
Alert | Last I recall, NO ONE can either prove nor disprove the existence of God ... it is a logical, empirical and necessarily impossible thing to do.
Perhaps we can all agree with the consensus that exists not only among philosophers, but also among scientists as well?
Michelle, when you say "You can disprove a theory...", you are actually mistaken. Scientific theories are neither proved nor disproved. They are simply a collection of process models that are organized under the umbrella of physical law. That "organization" is what we accept as theory. If a theory fails a test, then that part of the theory simply falls apart. Rarely does a scientific theory ever completely "fall apart" because it is rare that one is so shallow that it can't bear the burden of being wrong on some points and subsequently are they so shallow that one contradiction brings down the house.
I dispute Trogdor's eloquence or patience ... he seems to go to extremes, equivocate terms (as you do too) and still has not answered some very basic questions.
So, having said that, the title of this forum is "Biblical Accuracy". To date, no one has actually answered any of the questions about biblical accuracy that have been posted by just a few. Instead, the group brings up things unrelated to biblical accuracy. Most of what's happening in this forum should be under its own heading ... perhaps "the existence of God?"
Cheers. | | | |
|
| | cvangilder
Posts:16
| | 07/13/2007 8:44 PM |
Alert | Actually no ... the FSM is also nothing like God. We (Christians) accept as an axiom, that God is infinite and eternal. There are good reasons for this, namely the Bible says so and more importantly (for people like you) it is a logical necessity. So, for now, we can skip the basis that many would offer from Scripture, and just stick with the logical necessity of an infinite and eternal being for the role of "God". This is because "God" has unlimited power, knowledge, etc. There, I've defined the term ... no stop equivocating other things with it!
I couldn't have possibly disproved the existence of God by my FSM treatise (even if it was lacking something) because the existence of God is something that can never be proved NOR disproved. I'm sure that you've read about or at least heard of this? It's a fairly basic and superficial fixture in the philosophy of this topic and first order logic.
Concerning your incomprehensible statement regarding the manuscript evidence, I need to assign some homework to you so that you can speak with knowledge and credibility the next time that you respond to a question/statement like the one I gave. Look up textual criticism ... particularly redaction criticism. Also, pay close attention to the remarkable variability that exists in oral traditions without compromising accuracy of the transmission. Take note of the modern forms that currently exist and have been studied extensively.
Concerning God and His relationship to physical laws, the assertion that we make in our theology is that He established those laws and therefore transcends them. Not only is this necessary for the activity of "God", but it is also the claim of Scripture (oops ... sorry, forgot to not mention that). Anyway, He (God) is not required to obey physical law at any time because He is not subject to them; rather, they are subject to Him and His will. Regardless of the theism or religion that lays claim to a God like this, this God is necessarily not physical. There is no way for an infinite (and therefore eternal) being to be put under the discrete scope of physical, contingent, temporal, cause & effect based potentiality.
I'll stop for now ... that last line probably hurt. | | | |
|
| | cvangilder
Posts:16
| | 07/13/2007 9:06 PM |
Alert | Man! You people just don't get it! To interpret that portion of Scripture as meaning the Christian is to simply turn off their brain is pure sophistry. Let me explain.
1. That passage is from the Old Testament. As you might recall, the Jews are responsible for assembling that text. If you know anything at all about Judaism, it IS NOT a non-thinking theology or culture.
2. Further back in the Old Testament, God specifically declares to His people that they are to worship with all of their mind ... among other things. Now this is not to say that there has never been a mindless Christian, but plenty of people theist and atheist alike behave in silly and "mindless" ways. Stop pretending that theists are the only people-group who have crazy uncles and cousins who they'd rather not admit they know. [not that tiro is a crazy uncle]
3. Belief is far from "blind" in Christian Theology; in fact, it is extremely systematic. I challenge you to find a piece of systematic Christian theology that is irrational, illogical, etc. I triple-dog-dare ya!
4. since I mentioned "belief", I'll need to mention "faith" since they are connected and since both have been misrepresented in this forum by others. Faith also IS NOT a blind thing; at least it's not designed to be. Belief is but one element of faith. Faith is evidential in nature and hopeful by means of direct experience. I'll let you chew on that a while. | | | |
|
| | Michelle
Posts:102
| | 07/13/2007 10:14 PM |
Alert | Speaking of sophistry ...
Cvandgilder's pretty words fail to distract from his very circular logic. What he has claimed, in essence, is this:
1. Yes, the existence and activity of God defy natural law.
2. However, scripture claims — pre-emptively — that God defies natural law. (How convenient!)
3. Therefore, defying natural law becomes a defining characteristic of God.
4. Because God defies natural law, as Scripture claims "He" does, Scripture is correct.
5. Ergo: God exists.
Three words: Self. Fulfilling. Prophecy. | |
I used to be Chelle.
"Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich | |
|
| | rex
Posts:295
| | 07/13/2007 11:15 PM |
Alert | I give up.
"Everything is meaningless" (Eccl 1:1) There is no remembrance of men of old.
"Wisdom is meaningless" For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.
Where ignorance is bliss, it's foolish to be wise. (Thomas Gray)
Might as well be walking on the sun. (Smash Mouth)
The fact that I've been reading passages proves that EEE has been successful in spreading the word. Thanks EEE. :-) | | | |
|
| | cvangilder
Posts:16
| | 07/14/2007 12:02 AM |
Alert | Once again, you fail to understand what I've said.
1. The existence and activity of God DO NOT "defy" natural law because God is the reason that natural law exists. This is necessary irrespective of any particular religious belief. try backing off of your hatred for God, religion, theists (whatever it is) and just pay attention to the philosophy.
2. The claim of Scripture IS NOT "preemptive", NOR is it that God "defies" natural law. I dare you to show me where that is in the Bible. Maybe we need a thread about problems with your accuracy?
3. The rest of your points ... #3,4 & 5 are nothing short of ridiculous. Not even wrong. Non-sequitur is probably the most adequate way to classify your little proof ... or whatever you want to call it. Go study the nine rules of inference in first order logic and then re-check your work here.
4. The only thing circular here is the motion that is clearly making you dizzy. I recommend getting off the less-than-philosophical merry-go-round that you're on, taking a break, and then collecting your thoughts more responsibly before you reply again.
5. This discussion barely qualifies as a "discussion" because those who are making the challenge refuse to answer direct questions about Biblical Accuracy, which is what this discussion area is supposed to be about!
So, I'll try to say it some other way ...
In what way is the Bible, inaccurate?
Let's just start with one passage, a verse, a single idea ... SOMETHING that qualifies as a challenge to biblical accuracy! Please!!!!! | | | |
|
| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/14/2007 12:42 AM |
Alert | Posted By Michelle on 07/13/2007 10:14 PM
Speaking of sophistry ...
Cvandgilder's pretty words fail to distract from his very circular logic. What he has claimed, in essence, is this:
1. Yes, the existence and activity of God defy natural law.
2. However, scripture claims — pre-emptively — that God defies natural law. (How convenient!)
3. Therefore, defying natural law becomes a defining characteristic of God.
4. Because God defies natural law, as Scripture claims "He" does, Scripture is correct.
5. Ergo: God exists.
Three words: Self. Fulfilling. Prophecy.
Why did this turn into Christians trying to prove their faith? It has been well established that this is impossible. Yet, five pages ago 06 said she could disprove it. Still, no evidence of disproof. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
|
| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 07/14/2007 8:11 AM |
Alert | Posted By rex on 07/13/2007 11:15 PM
I give up.
"Everything is meaningless" (Eccl 1:1) There is no remembrance of men of old.
"Wisdom is meaningless" For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.
Where ignorance is bliss, it's foolish to be wise. (Thomas Gray)
Might as well be walking on the sun. (Smash Mouth)
The fact that I've been reading passages proves that EEE has been successful in spreading the word. Thanks EEE. :-)
Well I'm glad to see you venture on from other books besides Genesis and Revelations.
Here is the conclusion to what Solomon was saying to why everything under the sun is vanity.
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
|
| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 07/14/2007 8:16 AM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 07/14/2007 12:42 AM Posted By Michelle on 07/13/2007 10:14 PM
Speaking of sophistry ...
Cvandgilder's pretty words fail to distract from his very circular logic. What he has claimed, in essence, is this:
1. Yes, the existence and activity of God defy natural law.
2. However, scripture claims — pre-emptively — that God defies natural law. (How convenient!)
3. Therefore, defying natural law becomes a defining characteristic of God.
4. Because God defies natural law, as Scripture claims "He" does, Scripture is correct.
5. Ergo: God exists.
Three words: Self. Fulfilling. Prophecy. Why did this turn into Christians trying to prove their faith? It has been well established that this is impossible. Yet, five pages ago 06 said she could disprove it. Still, no evidence of disproof.
That's because they can't do it, so they have to result to other arguments.
The best way to disprove God is to disprove the Bible.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAND GO! | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
|
| | rex
Posts:295
| | 07/14/2007 12:45 PM |
Alert | Yeah, EEE. I figured they were talking about material things being meaningless. The wisdom part kind of threw me though. God declaring to people to worship with all of their mind and wisdom is meaningless seem contrary to me. I guess it all has to do with interpretation of what wisdom is.
In John 2:19, when Jesus told the dudes to destroy this temple and he would rebuild it in 3 days, they interpreted it to be their 46 year old temple. Later they interpreted it to be Jesus himself as the temple. It's also like the DaVinci Code. If you move the space in the French words for Holy Grail, it becomes Royal Bloodline. Interpretation has a way of impeding enlightenment.
:-) | | | |
|
| | 06woman
Posts:356
| | 07/15/2007 5:51 PM |
Alert | | History was written by the winners. Those that won or the ones that were more powerful had control over what was written and the only evidence we have is their writing. There may be more sides to the story. | |
"Happiness is a journey...not a destination."
"The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about." -
Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
This is my son and a Lake Erie sunset. July 8,2007
Senior Member
Posts: 2268
Joined: May 2006 | |
|
| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/15/2007 5:56 PM |
Alert | Posted By Michelle on 07/13/2007 7:46 PM
It's called "blind faith" for a reason, people. It isn't based on logic, let alone science or any other historical or empirical evidence ... so why pretend otherwise?
Suppose for a second that there was a God. Suppose this God did perform a miracle. Then would it be blind? Just because you don't have any evidence, doesn't mean it is blind for other people.
Why not admit that it's something you believe simply because you were taught to believe it? There is no legitimate, comprehensive, irrefutable "proof" that you can offer in favor of the existence of God or infallibility of the Bible, so these increasingly desperate attempts to appeal to the historical record (which supports some of the details depicted in the Bible, but cannot and does not speak to the divinity of Christ) do little more than expose your bias.
Do you know how arrogant you sound? Why do you pretend like you have all of the answers when it is very clear that you don't?
Weren't you one of the people that begged for a religion section so you wouldn't have to read this stuff? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
|
| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/15/2007 5:57 PM |
Alert | History was written by the winners.
Excellent proof! | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
|
| | 06woman
Posts:356
| | 07/15/2007 6:01 PM |
Alert | | I NEVER said I could disprove the bible. However, there has been a lot of evidence out there that most Christians prefer to overlook because it would cast doubt upon their beliefs or make their whole faith in the bible a joke. | |
"Happiness is a journey...not a destination."
"The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about." -
Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
This is my son and a Lake Erie sunset. July 8,2007
Senior Member
Posts: 2268
Joined: May 2006 | |
|
| |
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.6 |
|
|
|