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| | Author | Messages | |
J9Design
Posts:271
 | | 07/11/2007 3:47 PM |
 Alert | You have no proof that the Bible is historical fiction. See, we asked where the proof is that it is bunk. Still waiting. Most Christians have their beliefs through faith. they walk by faith not by sight. Those who say it is bunk need to prove it is bunk.
Who is deluding you with the God Delusion? | |
Formerly known as *werunohu* !!
werunohu
Senior Member
Posts: 1714
Joined: July 2005 | |
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| | Trogdor!
Posts:294
| | 07/11/2007 4:00 PM |
Alert | Posted By J9Design on 07/11/2007 3:47 PM
You have no proof that the Bible is historical fiction. See, we asked where the proof is that it is bunk. Still waiting. Most Christians have their beliefs through faith. they walk by faith not by sight. Those who say it is bunk need to prove it is bunk.
Who is deluding you with the God Delusion?
I have have never heard any proof that the bible isn't historical fiction.
"Faith" may be enough for some, but there are plenty of people that need more than that. I contest that the default of anything is "bunk" unless presented with some evidence to prove otherwise.
I am "deluding" myself with The God Delusion. However, unless you've read it, I don't see how you can pass such judgment as to say that I'm "deluding" myself. | |
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| | J9Design
Posts:271
| | 07/11/2007 4:12 PM |
Alert | I guess what I meant is who wrote the God Delusion? I can't live a pessimistic lifestyle where everything absolutely unproven to me in "bunk". Again, the idea here by the OP, is that she says it's bunk. Why? What proof is there?
Most Christians who believe, have heard or read enough to accept the Bible's accuracy. It has been compared and studied and debated for millenia yet has stood the tests of time. References made earlier were ones based in opinion, leading to the point that "proof" is not what makes the Bible so important.
Jesus did not do parlor tricks, he expressly did not wish his believers to believe by sight, but by faith through the Holy Spirit. | |
Formerly known as *werunohu* !!
werunohu
Senior Member
Posts: 1714
Joined: July 2005 | |
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| | tirobinson
Posts:0
| | 07/11/2007 4:14 PM |
Alert | II Peter 1:20-21
⎠] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
⎡] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost
Rev 22: 18-19
⎞] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
⎟] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I can tell you based off of these two scriptures God is clear about His word.
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| | Ghost
Posts:57
| | 07/11/2007 4:49 PM |
Alert | Personally I think it is great that people believe in God. If that is what you need to make it through life then more power to you.
Personally I believe in myself and that is all I need. | |
85238>85239 | |
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| | Trogdor!
Posts:294
| | 07/11/2007 4:55 PM |
Alert | J9Design,
The author of the book is Richard Dawkins. From what I've read/heard, he isn't being pessimistic, he's just trying to be realistic. Considering the implications/penalties that come with various religions, it seems that this is something that everyone should scrutinize. Quite frankly, purposefully telling people to believe something on "faith" seems like a cop-out. It's like saying, "You want further proof? Just have faith."
Here's a quote from Douglas Adams that appears in Dawkins' the God Delusion:
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
tirobinson,
Quotes from the bible don't prove it's that it's not fiction. Taking it to the extreme, I could say that I'm God, and because I'm God saying that means it's true. | |
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|  | C-Dub
Posts:46
| | 07/11/2007 5:07 PM |
Alert | I'm familiar with Dawkins theorems. Of course, he has faith in atheism as well as Macro-Evolution. So you have now come full circle in your reasoning.
Suggest that you also read the book "I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist" by Norm Geisler and Frank Turek. Then you can honestly tell yourself which way you will place your faith.
And Douglas Adams is a GREAT fiction writer. Really enjoy his stories. Don't know if his quote is enough to make me change my faith though. LOL
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| | tirobinson
Posts:0
| | 07/11/2007 5:27 PM |
Alert | The wonderful thing about God is he gave us free will, it is our choice if we belive or not.
I had a gentlement in my office one day and said he did not belive in the bible and thought it was made up.
I handed him the bible and said if you do not belive it please take it a rip it up. I can tell you the look on his face was fear and he said he could not do that and walked out.
That small grain of faith God can work with.
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 07/11/2007 5:35 PM |
Alert | Posted By tirobinson on 07/11/2007 5:27 PM
The wonderful thing about God is he gave us free will, it is our choice if we belive or not.
Did the Jews in John 6 have free will? What did Jesus say in John 6 for the reason men did not believe in him? | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | cvangilder
Posts:16
| | 07/11/2007 6:16 PM |
Alert | So, is it because you've never heard any proof that the Bible IS NOT historical fiction the reason that you believe that it is historical fiction, or do you have positive evidence that it IS historical fiction?
If yes to the latter, please cite your sources.
If yes to the former, can you explain how this is responsible skepticism? | | | |
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| | cvangilder
Posts:16
| | 07/11/2007 6:18 PM |
Alert | So, is it because you've never heard any proof that the Bible IS NOT historical fiction the reason that you believe that it is historical fiction, or do you have positive evidence that it IS historical fiction?
If yes to the latter, please cite your sources.
If yes to the former, can you explain how this is responsible skepticism? | | | |
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| | vytor
Posts:45
| | 07/11/2007 10:35 PM |
Alert | Ohh this could go on FOREVER! The funny thing about it is really there is no proof of God or not... (Other then to say FAITH) You have to have faith otherwise you can only go off of what you know. If you were to ask people how old the earth is what would the answers be that you would get? My dad could say based on Fact, 50+ years, I could say 32 years and so on.. There was a person that was on Coast to Coast AM that says that the Earth has only been around for 6000 years. And, goes on to disprove the data that shows otherwise. I personally don't know about that... I have Faith that there is a God or another Devine being that we maynot even be able to put into words, or be able to wrap our human minds around... There is something out there and what that is I am not sure. Do I believe in God, yes I do, what is God.. That is a whole other story, the Great Archtict? Some sort of energy? Not really sure but my FAITH is strong and really that is all that matters to me.
So scientists who believe in evolution admit that their belief is based not on scientific examination of the theory, but rather on faith alone. This does not discourage them from calling evolution a "fact" in an obvious attempt to promote their belief without being able to justify it scientifically. However, the thery of Darwenism and Creationism will also go on most likly till worlds end... | | | |
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| | vytor
Posts:45
| | 07/11/2007 10:38 PM |
Alert | cvangilder there are factual items that are in the bible... As for fact, see above I can only be certain of things that I have seen or that I know etc. Now My Faith about the bible even though some of the items are outlandish like living hundreds of years etc. Maybe blown out of proportion, but I Don't Know!!!
My Faith stands that there is a God, and as such heaven, hell etc. What that REALLY IS... Not sure. | | | |
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| | Trogdor!
Posts:294
| | 07/11/2007 10:51 PM |
Alert | C-Dub,
I don't think "faith in atheism" is really the correct way to think about it. It's more about an absence of faith rather than faith to the contrary.
tiro,
Your example of that individual not wanting to tear up a bible is a better example of superstition. How about ask someone to walk under a ladder, break a mirror, say "Bloody Mary" in the mirror, etc. and I'm sure that you will get the same sort of hesitation. The basic ideas of religion are so well know that anyone not completely sure of their beliefs would be hesitant to take you up on your offer do to "what if". That's hardly any proof of "God".
cvangilder,
The default position is false. Are you familiar with the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or how about the tea pot that orbits the sun between Earth and Mars? Everything else in life must rely on enough empirical evidence to come to either a definitive conclusion or, at the every least, an acceptable theory. How about prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't real? Can you site sources, or explain how it is reasonable to be skeptical? | |
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| | Trogdor!
Posts:294
| | 07/11/2007 11:00 PM |
Alert | vytor,
You seem like more of a deist than a theist. Like some sort of "original mover" must exist, but whether that is the god of the bible is unknown. You may cling to the familiarity of Christianity, but remain skeptical. I may be off the mark here, so take my generalization as just that.
I will have to disagree with you on the faith in evolution. A theory is just a theory. It is not necessary to attach mysticism. As with many theories, there are faults. I don't necessarily think that evolution is the end-all-be-all explanation, but it sure makes a lot more sense than creationism. | |
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| | cvangilder
Posts:16
| | 07/12/2007 12:52 AM |
Alert | vytor ... are you absolutely sure that you "can only be certain of things that I have seen or that I know"?
also ... it's clear that you misunderstand my question based on the tone of certain phrases in your reply.
My question stands unanswered. Is it because the claim that "I've never heard of any evidence that the Bible IS NOT historical fiction" is in fact baseless and the person making this claim cannot produce any research? Perhaps it's because there's no intention in responsibly bearing the burden of a critic?
I'm dead serious (and I am not mad) about someone producing positive evidence (research) that the Bible is historical fiction. When that is done, we can have a rational and focused discussion. | | | |
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| | cvangilder
Posts:16
| | 07/12/2007 1:05 AM |
Alert | Trogdor! ... have you heard of strawmen? watched the Wizard of Oz. Come on! But because you asked ...
Yes, I've heard of the Flying Spaghetti Monster ... I created him for an 8th grade science project. He rode to school that day in the tea cup (it's not a pot as you say) that I later placed in orbit between Earth and Mars using only my mind powers.
Here's why the Flying Spaghetti Monster cannot exist in objective reality.
1. Spaghetti is incapable, on a molecular scale, of supporting the complex biological structures that would support a nervous system; hence, there could be no monster made of spaghetti.
2. Spaghetti does not have sufficient tensile strength to support flight of any kind.
Here, we are able to use basic (and not so basic science) to establish with a very high degree of certitude that the Flying Spaghetti Monster DOES NOT exist. In order for it to exist, a number of physical laws would have to be suspended and there would need to be some credible sightings.
The Bible is nothing like the Flying Spaghetti Monster because of the substantial manuscript evidence that is corroborated by secular historical documents and archeology.
Finally, not even a Nobel laureate would claim that "Everything else in life must rely on enough empirical evidence to come to either a definitive conclusion or, at the every least, an acceptable theory". This is philosophical nonsense. It is also methodological naturalism, which is the paradigm for natural science ... and a pretty darn good one at that.
What does it take to have a good scientific theory?
What is faith? | | | |
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| | 06woman
Posts:356
| | 07/12/2007 11:23 AM |
Alert | I've noticed that some of my questions have yet to be answered.
EEE- I do not agree that the the gospels that were left out of the Bible were left out because they were not "God's word" or the truth. I would expect just that out of a fanatical Christian because it seems that so many are so closed minded when it comes to looking at the history of Christianity and the fact that there may be more to it than what you have learned and come to believe thus far in your life. Those scriptures were not always available to read. They were only found earlier in the last century and only have become available to read in the last several years. They were suppressed by the constructors of the New Testament because it did not portray Jesus as the divine being and therefore did not fit the agenda of the Catholic Church of the time, which was a political (and still is) entity. How do you convince all these people that they are suppose to listen to you? You tell them you get your powers from God! Where do you think royal families came from?
Phantom78- I have read The Davinci Code. It is a fictional story. However, there are factual things within the story that inspired me to do more research into the history of Christianity. That was quite an ignorant remark on your part. | |
"Happiness is a journey...not a destination."
"The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about." -
Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
This is my son and a Lake Erie sunset. July 8,2007
Senior Member
Posts: 2268
Joined: May 2006 | |
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| | tirobinson
Posts:0
| | 07/12/2007 12:48 PM |
Alert | 06woman - I do agree when you say christians are so closed minded when it comes to looking at the history of Christianity and the fact that there may be more to it than what you have learned and come to believe thus far in your life. I would just add (some) before that.
I truly belive there is so much more we have not seen, however the Word or Bible is what we have to live our lives and place our faith on.
God wrapped himself in flesh and walked on earth and his name was Jesus, people saw Him, talked to Him and watched the miricles He preformed and still did not except Him. We have not changed since then.
The good thing is God is God and He knows it even if we do not belive.
He tells us the every knee will bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I pray that the understanding and Power of Jesus is revelled to everyone before the end.
Trust in Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding!
We will never be able to wrap our minds around God because we are flesh and are not in glorified bodies yet.
But one day, praise the Lord those trumpets will sound and we will know.
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| | Trogdor!
Posts:294
| | 07/12/2007 1:56 PM |
Alert | cvanglider,
At first I thought you were being clever by referring to the straw man fallacy, but I quickly realized that that doesn't really apply to what I've said. Anyway, I wasn't comparing the Flying Spaghetti Monster to the bible, more to "God". Also, given your criteria to disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you've disproved the existence of "God" as well... or do physical laws not apply to your "God"? If that's the case, then they don't apply to the FSM either.
"The Bible is nothing like the Flying Spaghetti Monster because of the substantial manuscript evidence that is corroborated by secular historical documents and archeology."
Yes, and historical fiction shares this same attribute!
tiro,
Don't preach. Non-theists have little, if not no, interest in that method of trying to get a point across. As soon as I read "God wrapped himself in flesh..." I immediately skimmed the rest of your post to see if there was anything worth reading in full. Nope, nothing. | |
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