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| | Author | Messages | |
egoettl
Posts:28
 | | 07/27/2007 3:55 PM |
 Alert | Posted By EEE on 07/27/2007 3:37 PM Posted By egoettl on 07/27/2007 2:33 PM
Perhaps, but then read verses 15-16 of the same chapter. From verse 16, it appears that even those who "believe" did not all obey the gospel. What is it that believers must do then? Talk about eisegesis. In the context of Romans 10, where are you getting the believers are the ones rejecting the Gospel? The passage is talking about the people who are being witnessed to are not obeying the gospel.
Yes, Paul is addressing his epistle to the believers in Rome, preparing them for his visit. However, Romans 10 begins with, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."
Paul is addressing a very specific problem of believing (converted) Jews letting go of the Law of Moses (see verses 2-4). Paul wants us to understand that "Christ is the end of the law" (of Moses, the Levitical order). Can I ask you, how did Christ end the law? Was it replaced? If so, with what? Again, before you answer, look at what the Savior taught we must DO after we believe.
Let's take this a little further into Romans 11. Because Israel has failed to obey the "new" gospel as taught by Christ (10:16), what is to happen? Those unbelieving branches of Israel were to be broken off and the Gentiles would be grafted in. But look at the warning in verses 18-22. Again, if you and I fail to obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we too will be removed from our place. So, what is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, what did He invite me to do? | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 07/27/2007 4:21 PM |
Alert | Posted By egoettl on 07/27/2007 3:55 PM Posted By EEE on 07/27/2007 3:37 PM Posted By egoettl on 07/27/2007 2:33 PM
Perhaps, but then read verses 15-16 of the same chapter. From verse 16, it appears that even those who "believe" did not all obey the gospel. What is it that believers must do then? Talk about eisegesis. In the context of Romans 10, where are you getting the believers are the ones rejecting the Gospel? The passage is talking about the people who are being witnessed to are not obeying the gospel. Yes, Paul is addressing his epistle to the believers in Rome, preparing them for his visit. However, Romans 10 begins with, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."
Unbelieving Israel who decided to establish their own righteousness instead of relying on God's righteousness. How do we get God's righteousness? Let's look in verse 4. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Read it again, the Jews do not believe. This carries over to your next quote.
Paul is addressing a very specific problem of believing (converted) Jews letting go of the Law of Moses (see verses 2-4). Paul wants us to understand that "Christ is the end of the law" (of Moses, the Levitical order).
The very specific problem the unbelieving Jews were in violation of is their continuation of the Law and not Believing in Christ.
Can I ask you, how did Christ end the law? Was it replaced? If so, with what? Again, before you answer, look at what the Savior taught we must DO after we believe.
When it says "Christ is the end of the law", it means Christ as Lord and Savior ends the sinner's futile quest for righteousness through his imperfect attempts to save himself by efforts to obey the law.
Romans 3:20-22
Isiah 64:6
Col 2:13,14
Let's take this a little further into Romans 11. Because Israel has failed to obey the "new" gospel as taught by Christ (10:16), what is to happen? Those unbelieving branches of Israel were to be broken off and the Gentiles would be grafted in. But look at the warning in verses 18-22. Again, if you and I fail to obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we too will be removed from our place. So, what is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, what did He invite me to do?
God has always had a chosen people with a few remnants. In the OT it was Israel, now both Jews and Non-Jews can be saved.
Works has never been apart of the Gospel, only believing. Paul uses Abraham to make this point in Romans 4:3.
Bottom Line:
If Righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly(Galatians 2:21)
So the concept of doing sacraments for Christ death to be applied to our lives is blasphemy and a slap in the face to a God who gives Grace.
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Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | egoettl
Posts:28
| | 07/27/2007 5:16 PM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 07/27/2007 4:21 PM
When it says "Christ is the end of the law", it means Christ as Lord and Savior ends the sinner's futile quest for righteousness through his imperfect attempts to save himself by efforts to obey the law.
Romans 3:20-22
Isiah 64:6
Col 2:13,14
I agree with much of what you have said. I must believe in Christ to be saved. I get that. The Jews did not believe in Christ and relied upon their dead works. I get that.
My point is that belief in Christ means much more than just professing that belief. I CANNOT SAVE MYSELF. This is not what I am talking about. However, I must "enter in by the door" and do those things my Savior has asked of me. If I fail to do those things, then what does that truly say about my belief? (James 2:14-26)
Romans 3:20-22 - Absolutely correct, especially because of verse 23 - All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. No amount of obedience to God's law will save me because I am a sinner and "no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God". So, it is correct, I cannot be justified in God's sight by my obedience alone. It is an impossibility. But this does not mean that I then through out the "deeds of the law", does it? No, vs 13 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." What law does Paul want to establish? Answer: the Law of the Gospel of Christ. Look at what his next several chapters discuss:
Chapter 4 - Abraham's faith was imputed to him for righteousness - Man is justified by faith, righteous works, and grace.
Chapter 5 - Man is justified through the blood of Christ - Adam fell, and Christ atoned that man might be saved.
Chapter 6 - Baptism is in similitude of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ - The wages of sin is death - Christ brings eternal life.
When considered in it's entirety, Paul's letter to the Romans does not imply that belief or faith is all I need. In fact, the opposite is true, that true faith, real belief requires specific action on my part. It is through my obedience to God's laws that my faith allows me access to my Savior's atonement - the only way of salvation.
Isiah 64:6 - it is ironic that you would chose this to illustrate that we do not need works. Isaiah declares his (and our) uncleanness and his (and our) need for the grace of God through the medium of a prayer - an ACT of faith. So, to be a true follower of Christ, should I pray? How? Is prayer considered to be vain work?
Col 2:13,14 - notice how the forgiveness of my trespasses happens AFTER my burial with Christ in Baptism (see verse 12). So, to be a true follower of Christ, should I be baptized? How? Is baptism considered to be vain work?
Posted By EEE on 07/27/2007 4:21 PM
God has always had a chosen people with a few remnants. In the OT it was Israel, now both Jews and Non-Jews can be saved.
Completely agree, as long as they follow the Savior and keep the ordinances of His Gospel.
Posted By EEE on 07/27/2007 4:21 PM
Works has never been apart of the Gospel, only believing. Paul uses Abraham to make this point in Romans 4:3.
Could not disagree with this more (see above response). Works has always been a part of the Gospel of Christ. Christ Himself said, in response to Nicodemus' questioning on how to become born a second time, that "he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:21) One must be "born of water and of the Spirit" or "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5).
Posted By EEE on 07/27/2007 4:21 PM
Bottom Line:
If Righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly(Galatians 2:21)
Agreed. IF I could work my way to heaven, who needs the Savior? This is exactly what Paul is teaching against because, "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (vs 16). This is because it is impossible for you or I to be SO good, SO obedient that we no longer need the Savior's atonement. But again, we cannot throw out the law of the Gospel. Look at the end of Galatians 3:24-29. Again, it appears that my believe and faith leads me to baptism.
EEE - from your posts, it appears that you are a God fearing individual. I want to invite you to continue to believe in Christ and to allow that belief to move you to be baptized in His name. I know not much else about you and I do not know if you have been baptized. Should you decide that this is the right choice for you, please consider by what authority that baptism you seek is performed. Find the Church that has living Apostles and Christ as its head. Because I believe that "doing sacraments for Christ death to be applied to our lives" without proper authority "is blasphemy and a slap in the face to a God who gives Grace" and requires that we live His Gospel. | | | |
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 08/06/2007 1:40 PM |
Alert | Egoetti,
This is what Jesus says on the subject of works.
John 6:27-29
27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
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| | egoettl
Posts:28
| | 08/06/2007 9:07 PM |
Alert | Posted By joe_2007 on 08/06/2007 1:40 PM
Egoetti,
This is what Jesus says on the subject of works.
John 6:27-29
27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Thank you joe_200i for sharing this verse. You are correct in that you are quoting what the Savior said, but you need to look at the rest of the chapter. The Savior often continues to teach the people beyond His first "opener". Let's continue down the chapter a bit. Does the Savior ask them to do anything after they believe?
"35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."
OK, it appears that the Savior requires us not only to "believe" on Him but to "come" to Him too. How do we do that? Keep reading:
"37 All that the Father agiveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise bcast out."
The Savior again reiterates the importance of coming to Him. Keep reading:
"40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up cat the last day."
Hmm...According to the Savior, another requirement for everlasting life is to "see the Son". Is believe enough? Let's keep reading:
"46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
"47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
"48 I am that bread of life.
"49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
"50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
"51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
OK, now we need to "believe", "see", and "eat". How do we "eat" of the bread of life? The Jew's ask this very question. Let's keep reading:
"53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
"54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
"55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."
OK, now we need to "believe", "see", "eat", and "drink". Let's keep going:
"56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."
OK, now we need to "believe", "see", "eat", "drink" and "dwell" in Him. Let's keep going:
"57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
"58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever."
OK, now the Savior ties it all together. What He wants you and I to do, is not only believe in Him but to live by Him.
Now joe_2007, what do you think He means? Does this should like you need to "DO" something more than just "believe"?
Please, do not be like the Jew's at the end of this chapter:
"60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?"
"66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."
If the Savior simply taught the people to "believe" in Him as you suggest, why did so many become offended by that teaching? I submit to you that there is much more to eternal life than just "believing".
I know this is might be hard doctrine for you to accept as you have been taught otherwise, but as I stated earlier in this post to EEE, true belief requires that I do something about it (your so-called "works"). Again, the trouble many in the Christian world have comes with misunderstanding the whole concept of "works". As stated before, I cannot "work" my way to heaven. No matter how "good" I am or how many "works" I do, I will never be perfect as God is perfect unless I lay claim on the Savior's Atonement and rely on His grace. The question then is how to I access that Atonement? What requirements has the Savior placed on my obtaining His grace? Again, my plea to you is to search the scriptures and look for those things the Savior taught we should do.
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| | andromeda
Posts:0
| | 08/07/2007 1:35 PM |
Alert | | I second "egoettl" thoughts on the misconception of "works" among some Christians. The misconception is that "works" somehow demean the power and grace of Christ's atonement. If done with the idea that you are individually going to get to heaven w/o the Saviour, then yes you are demeaning Christ. However, if performed as a true Christian, it shows an acceptance of His atonement, belief that he is the Saviour of the world, and willingness to DO what he was asked us to DO. By following his teachings, believing in Him, and DOing as he commanded, we can partake of His Grace and be saved through Him and only through Him. | | | |
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|  | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 08/09/2007 3:54 PM |
Alert | I may be wrong, but I think there may be a bit of a false dichotomy going on here. On one hand, there is the presentation of the idea that belief alone saves someone. On the other hand, there is the presentation of the idea that belief and works will save you. I don't think either is correct. True belief alone will save you, and those that have true belief will perform good works (as taught by Jesus) in His name, not for their own salvation. Faith+works never, ever works, since the sinner is trying to save themselves by adding works onto their salvation.
Does that make sense? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | Sinbad
Posts:3046
| | 08/09/2007 3:59 PM |
Alert |
Religon:
It's passed down from one man/woman to the next over all of these years... THE TRUTH has been distorted. What most believe now, probably isn't what Jesus truely was teaching then.
Think about it.
I tell Cabana something, he tells Ding Dong, Ding Dong tells Jason, Jason tells Lvmadonna, Lvmadonna tells me and I say What the heck... that's not what I said.
True or False?? Are you picking up what I am putting down? | |
Just doing it one day at a time. Change is good and it should be looked upon as an improvment! not a problem.
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San Diego Super Chargers! GO!!!
Joined old forum March 2006
Post count: 3068 + these | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 08/09/2007 11:05 PM |
Alert | | I see where you're going, but if you were an omnipotent being, wouldn't you make sure your word stayed the same over the years? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | KillerBee14
Posts:59
| | 08/09/2007 11:54 PM |
Alert | And over the years it is still the same. A thousand years before me, but it still has not changed.
Try and disprove it but the word is still the same. | | | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 08/10/2007 8:05 AM |
Alert | | OK Jason ... this is good. Can you give just 5 specific examples of how "the word of God" has changed "over the years"? I'm looking for manuscript evidence here ... if you're talking about variations in translations "over the years", then your original post was pointless ... not even worthy of being called wrong. | | | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 08/10/2007 8:14 AM |
Alert | Sinbad, it is clear that you know nothing of how the scriptures were passed down. Yes, there was an oral tradition that persisted for centuries, but if you were a responsible skeptic, you'd know that oral traditions (at the least ancient ones) are generally reliable AND you'd know that the ancient Jewish one is a role-model for reliable oral traditions.
You make certain claims in your post that I'd like for you to provide some sort of logical or evidential basis for (because you haven't done that yet).
1. "THE TRUTH has been distorted." Please describe the "TRUTH" that has been distorted and how the current Scriptures are a distortion.
2. "What most believe now, probably isn't what Jesus taught." What is it that "most believe now" that Jesus never "truly taught then"? Also, when was "then" and which biblical author messed it up when? | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 08/10/2007 12:20 PM |
Alert | Posted By Veritas on 08/10/2007 8:05 AM
OK Jason ... this is good. Can you give just 5 specific examples of how "the word of God" has changed "over the years"? I'm looking for manuscript evidence here ... if you're talking about variations in translations "over the years", then your original post was pointless ... not even worthy of being called wrong.
Huh?  Sinbad is the one who said the Word changed, not I. I said that God, being omnipotent, makes sure that it doesn't change. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | TheBoymaker
Posts:787
| | 08/11/2007 6:33 AM |
Alert | Posted By Phantom78 on 07/24/2007 12:51 PM
egoettl-If we look back at the ten commandments you'll notice that the Roman Catholic church made some changes that would open the door to apostasy...ie the changing of the Ten Commandments.
It may be sleep deprivation talking, but are you insinuating that RC church changed the Ten Commandments, causing people to become apostates?
If so, I'm sure the Jews were really pissed off when the Pope changed their Torah. Because, you know, they waited for his opinion on things.
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Poster formerly known as Sassafrass. | |
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