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| | Author | Messages | |
bizybeth
Posts:569
 | | 07/10/2007 5:21 PM |
 Alert | http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/
Pope: Jesus formed "only one church" | |
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| | C-Dub
Posts:46
| | 07/10/2007 6:19 PM |
Alert | Technically that statement is correct. Jesus said that He would build His "church" (singular). However, that church is not contained solely within the Roman Catholic church. That's where many people would disagree with Pope Benedict. 
Romans 10:13 states that, "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is LORD, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Other verses in the Bible clearly state that belief in Jesus Christ along with repentance of sin is what makes you a part of the church of Jesus Christ. It's by Grace through Faith...not by works or traditions or apostolic succession.
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| | bizybeth
Posts:569
| | 07/10/2007 6:37 PM |
Alert | | thank you, C-Dub, I have always found that you are a mountain of wisdom on these things. I agree with you, and appreciate your scripture post to support it. So, Jesus' one church are those who have accept him by faith for salvation, yes? | |
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| | D-Dub
Posts:74
| | 07/10/2007 6:59 PM |
Alert | You would be correct. 
though I'm sure we'll get some people here that will disagree. LOL | | | |
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| | tirobinson
Posts:0
| | 07/10/2007 7:18 PM |
Alert | Don't forget
Acts 2:38-39
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Luke 13:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Not only does God want you to confess He is our Lord Jesus, he also wants you to build a relationship with him.
Don't forget Repentence is the start, we need to put off the old man and become new in Christ!
God Bless.
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| | bizybeth
Posts:569
| | 07/10/2007 7:30 PM |
Alert | | Thank you, tirobinson! That is helpful to me too! | |
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|  | tirobinson
Posts:0
| | 07/10/2007 7:41 PM |
Alert | You are very welcome! Read God's word daily and he will open the scriptures up to you.
My favorite scripture is:
II Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing
the word of truth.
God Bless. | | | |
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| | egoettl
Posts:28
| | 07/17/2007 11:47 AM |
Alert | Wait a minute, "not by works or traditions or apostolic succession"?  Let's define a few words here:
Works - John 7:17, James 1:22, James 2:17-18, John 14:15, and don't forget the words of the Savior Himself, "not my will, but thine, be DONE" (Luke 22:42) The Gospel of Christ requires action. Yes, I believe that we cannot "work" our way to heaven, I don't believe that is the type of "works" we are talking here. But real faith, faith that leads to salvation, requires action. The question then is, "What 'works' does my Savior require of me?" A fun exercise would be to search the gospels looking for commands (action words) the Savior gave to those who came to Him ("Come, follow me," "Go and sell all," "Go and sin no more," are but few examples.)
Traditions - If "traditions" are so wrong, why did the Savior keep the Passover, the Feast of the Tabernacles, the Sabbath, the Levitical order? Yes, I agree with C-Dub that man-instituted "traditions" have no place in pure gospel living, but what "traditions" that were instituted by Jesus Himself? If I were to say that I truly desire to follow Christ, would that mean that I should also keep those "traditions" He instituted? Is baptism a "tradition"? Is the Sacrament a "tradition"? Is prayer a "tradition"?
Apostolic succession - Here is my favorite one. This has to do with Priesthood keys/authority. Here is were Pope Benedict is either very, very correct or very, very wrong. The key is to see what the Bible teaches about Priesthood authority and keys. If the Bible teaches that God given authority to man (priesthood) is essential, then Christ's Church will contain priesthood. Correct? Here are a few verses to consider:
Hebrews 5:4
Matthew 16:13-19
Why did Jesus seek out John to be baptized by him? Search John's pedigree, if one is to officiate in the ordinances of the Gospel (baptism being one) one had better have the permission (authority) from God to do so.
My favorite is Ephesians 4:11-14. Read this one carefully. It says that these offices are necessary "UNTIL we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that...." Has this unity been achieved? So are apostles still needed? Yes.
So the question is, were are the Apostles? Here you really have only three choices:
1) The Catholic Church has maintained an unbroken chain of Apostolic succession since the time of Christ and is therefore the only true Church.
2) The Catholic Church has NOT maintained an unbroken chain, has fallen into apostasy and the priesthood has been removed from the earth. Therefore there is NO correct/true church on the earth lead by those keys.
3)The Catholic Church has NOT maintained an unbroken chain, has fallen into apostasy, but the Lord in His mercy has RESTORED the priesthood upon the earth, reestablished His Church and doctrine, and leads it today by direct revelation to His Apostles as He did in the days of old.
What are your thoughts on this? | | | |
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| | Sinbad
Posts:3046
| | 07/17/2007 12:26 PM |
Alert | It always opens the door to...
Who's church is the true church...
It's like...what came first .. the chicken or the egg?
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Just doing it one day at a time. Change is good and it should be looked upon as an improvment! not a problem.
______________________________________
***************************************
San Diego Super Chargers! GO!!!
Joined old forum March 2006
Post count: 3068 + these | |
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| | maricopacabana
Posts:343
| | 07/17/2007 12:42 PM |
Alert | Posted By Sinbad on 07/17/2007 12:26 PM
It always opens the door to...
Who's church is the true church...
It's like...what came first .. the chicken or the egg?
Neither. The Waffle House came first. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/17/2007 12:58 PM |
Alert | Posted By maricopacabana on 07/17/2007 12:42 PM Posted By Sinbad on 07/17/2007 12:26 PM
It always opens the door to...
Who's church is the true church...
It's like...what came first .. the chicken or the egg?
Neither. The Waffle House came first.
Which came first: The waffle or Waffle House? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | maricopacabana
Posts:343
| | 07/17/2007 2:06 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 07/17/2007 12:58 PM Posted By maricopacabana on 07/17/2007 12:42 PM Posted By Sinbad on 07/17/2007 12:26 PM
It always opens the door to...
Who's church is the true church...
It's like...what came first .. the chicken or the egg?
Neither. The Waffle House came first. Which came first: The waffle or Waffle House?
The waffle iron. | | | |
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| | jrpasco2003
Posts:34
| | 07/17/2007 8:24 PM |
Alert | Posted By maricopacabana on 07/17/2007 2:06 PM Posted By Jason on 07/17/2007 12:58 PM Posted By maricopacabana on 07/17/2007 12:42 PM Posted By Sinbad on 07/17/2007 12:26 PM
It always opens the door to...
Who's church is the true church...
It's like...what came first .. the chicken or the egg?
Neither. The Waffle House came first. Which came first: The waffle or Waffle House? The waffle iron.
ORRR...was the 'waffle iron' created simply as a means to make the 'waffle house' more convenient for the 'waffle eaters' because the original 'waffle' was just too much work to partake on a regular basis?!
haha
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| | Veritas
Posts:250
| | 07/23/2007 5:28 PM |
Alert | | The "true church" is the one that Jesus recognizes as His Bride. That would consist of all of the true believers that have taken the path of Romans 10:9-10. No one denomination can claim to have a corner on that market. | | | |
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| | joe_2007
Posts:83
| | 07/24/2007 7:35 AM |
Alert | Posted By egoettl on 07/17/2007 11:47 AM Wait a minute, "not by works or traditions or apostolic succession"? Let's define a few words here: Works - John 7:17, James 1:22, James 2:17-18, John 14:15, and don't forget the words of the Savior Himself, "not my will, but thine, be DONE" (Luke 22:42) The Gospel of Christ requires action. Yes, I believe that we cannot "work" our way to heaven, I don't believe that is the type of "works" we are talking here. But real faith, faith that leads to salvation, requires action. The question then is, "What 'works' does my Savior require of me?" A fun exercise would be to search the gospels looking for commands (action words) the Savior gave to those who came to Him ("Come, follow me," "Go and sell all," "Go and sin no more," are but few examples.) Traditions - If "traditions" are so wrong, why did the Savior keep the Passover, the Feast of the Tabernacles, the Sabbath, the Levitical order? Yes, I agree with C-Dub that man-instituted "traditions" have no place in pure gospel living, but what "traditions" that were instituted by Jesus Himself? If I were to say that I truly desire to follow Christ, would that mean that I should also keep those "traditions" He instituted? Is baptism a "tradition"? Is the Sacrament a "tradition"? Is prayer a "tradition"? Apostolic succession - Here is my favorite one. This has to do with Priesthood keys/authority. Here is were Pope Benedict is either very, very correct or very, very wrong. The key is to see what the Bible teaches about Priesthood authority and keys. If the Bible teaches that God given authority to man (priesthood) is essential, then Christ's Church will contain priesthood. Correct? Here are a few verses to consider: Hebrews 5:4 Matthew 16:13-19 Why did Jesus seek out John to be baptized by him? Search John's pedigree, if one is to officiate in the ordinances of the Gospel (baptism being one) one had better have the permission (authority) from God to do so. My favorite is Ephesians 4:11-14. Read this one carefully. It says that these offices are necessary "UNTIL we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that...." Has this unity been achieved? So are apostles still needed? Yes. So the question is, were are the Apostles? Here you really have only three choices: 1) The Catholic Church has maintained an unbroken chain of Apostolic succession since the time of Christ and is therefore the only true Church. 2) The Catholic Church has NOT maintained an unbroken chain, has fallen into apostasy and the priesthood has been removed from the earth. Therefore there is NO correct/true church on the earth lead by those keys. 3)The Catholic Church has NOT maintained an unbroken chain, has fallen into apostasy, but the Lord in His mercy has RESTORED the priesthood upon the earth, reestablished His Church and doctrine, and leads it today by direct revelation to His Apostles as He did in the days of old. What are your thoughts on this?
If God did restore the priesthood on Earth, He would not contradict everything that He taught the Israelites before. Despite what you may have been told, there are over 20,000 manuscripts of different sections of the Bible, some dating back to with in the life-span of the authors, and each confirm the accuracy with which it has been translated over the years.
Ephesians 4:11-14
11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
It does not say that all of these positions had to be filled at all times. As long as there are people is at least some of these positions, then the church will continue to grow until Jesus' return.
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| | Phantom78
Posts:232
| | 07/24/2007 12:51 PM |
Alert | | egoettl-If we look back at the ten commandments you'll notice that the Roman Catholic church made some changes that would open the door to apostasy...ie the changing of the Ten Commandments. | |
It’s not a glass half full (optimism) or a glass half empty (pessimism)—it’s half of a glass of water (reality). Expend your energy and mental capacity on something worthwhile!
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| | egoettl
Posts:28
| | 07/27/2007 2:33 PM |
Alert | | Perhaps, but then read verses 15-16 of the same chapter. From verse 16, it appears that even those who "believe" did not all obey the gospel. What is it that believers must do then? | | | |
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| | egoettl
Posts:28
| | 07/27/2007 3:18 PM |
Alert | Posted By joe_2007 on 07/24/2007 7:35 AM
If God did restore the priesthood on Earth, He would not contradict everything that He taught the Israelites before. Despite what you may have been told, there are over 20,000 manuscripts of different sections of the Bible, some dating back to with in the life-span of the authors, and each confirm the accuracy with which it has been translated over the years. Joe_2007 - I am a little confused of what is contradictory in my statement. The Bible, with few exceptions, is correctly translated and I believe it to be the Word of God. Help me understand why God would be contradicting Himself if he did restore the Priesthood on the Earth. Perhaps you are asking the question, "With Priesthood authority being restored to Earth, why don't we live the Law of Moses under the Levitical order anymore?" I don't follow your question. Posted By joe_2007 on 07/24/2007 7:35 AM
Ephesians 4:11-14
11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
It does not say that all of these positions had to be filled at all times. As long as there are people is at least some of these positions, then the church will continue to grow until Jesus' return.
You are right. However, the original question is was debating was, "Which church is true?" If there ARE God ordained Apostles on the Earth today, would that be important to know about? Would God ordained Apostles be a "sign" of the "true Church"? I say emphatically "YES!!" | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 07/27/2007 3:37 PM |
Alert | Posted By egoettl on 07/27/2007 2:33 PM
Perhaps, but then read verses 15-16 of the same chapter. From verse 16, it appears that even those who "believe" did not all obey the gospel. What is it that believers must do then?
Talk about eisegesis.
In the context of Romans 10, where are you getting the believers are the ones rejecting the Gospel?
The passage is talking about the people who are being witnessed to are not obeying the gospel. | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | egoettl
Posts:28
| | 07/27/2007 3:39 PM |
Alert | Posted By Phantom78 on 07/24/2007 12:51 PM
egoettl-If we look back at the ten commandments you'll notice that the Roman Catholic church made some changes that would open the door to apostasy...ie the changing of the Ten Commandments.
What did the Roman Catholic Church change about the Ten Commandments? I was thinking more along the lines of this:
"For the Church must endure to the end, the very same organization which Christ established. But in an organized society it is precisely the constitution which is the essential feature. A change in constitution transforms it into a society of a different kind. If then the Church should adopt a constitution other than Christ had it, it would no longer be his handiwork. It would no longer be the Divine Kingdom established by Him." - Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol XII, page 262.
It was at the council of Arles (1 August 314 A.D.) that the Catholic church adopted the policy of accepting and recognizing any mode of baptism performed by a non-member of the church so to be able to "open the door more widely to salvation."
Many other "changes" were instituted in the Catholic Church including:
- Prayers for the dead instituted. Approx. 310 AD
- The worship of Saints. Approx. 375 AD
- The worship of the Virgin Mary. Approx. 431 AD
- The Doctrine of Purgatory. Approx. 593 AD
- The supremacy of the Pope. Approx. 606 AD
- The Exalting of Joseph Approx. 890AD
- Forced Celibacy of the Priest. Approx. 1074 AD
- The use of the Rosary. Approx. 1090AD
- The sale of Indulgences. Approx. 1190AD
- The institution of transubstantiation. Approx. 1215AD
- The school of the Cardinals was instituted Approx. 1059 AD
- Supererogation (the act of sharing excess merit of pious deeds you have performed to the benefit of others not so fortunate.) Approx. 13th Century
- The Doctrine of Confirmation. Approx. 1439 AD
- The Book of Apocolypse officially introduced into the cannon of scripture. Approx. 1546AD
- The Doctrine of Immaculate Conception. Approx. 1854AD
- The Dogma of the infallibility of the Pope. Approx. 1870AD
- The intellectual supremacy of the Pope. Approx. 1907 AD.
Just to name a few.... | | | |
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