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| | Author | Messages | |
Veritas
Posts:250

 | | 07/22/2007 10:46 PM |
Alert | Given the numerous problems with Global Warming theory, one can only conclude that it is a religion whose god is the Earth itself and whose messiah is Al Gore. It is a crutch for those who have no purpose in life and feel the need to elevate themselves above other people and spew a rhetoric that attempts to make you look evil if you even dare to disagree. If these people had the power, they'd probably kill and torture more people than the Inquisition did.
Bring it on ... | | | |
| | alanf
Posts:1473


 | | 07/23/2007 7:40 AM |
Alert | Okay. It's a stupid post and your mother dresses you funny!!! Next!  | | | |
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| | aardvark_lovin
Posts:28


 | | 07/26/2007 10:48 PM |
Alert | hahahaah. alan you slay me! im glad you thought that was rediculous too, i thought i was just very tired and unable to read clearly. | | I love you Chubbison !! | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250

 | | 07/27/2007 8:48 AM |
Alert | OK ... but I was serious, at least in spirit ... of course I don't REALLY think that global warming wackos would really kill anyone.
Now on to the science. Consider the following facts.
1. Dying trees emit slightly more CO2 than everything that humans do.
2. Cattle belch out more CO2 than trees and humans together ... way more.
3. Termites emit more CO2 (and methane) than cattle, tree and humans combined ... way more! So much more, in fact, that cattle, trees and humans might as well not even be here.
4. CO2 & methane are the number 2 & 3 greenhouse gases. Water vapor is number 1.
5. ALL of the models currently declaring the end of life as we know it are computer models. While we use these in science to drive the direction of physical experiments, we NEVER use them as the basis of, much less the support of a theory. Well, except when it comes to global warming.
6. ALL of these models IGNORE the influence of the sun (biggest energy source) and cloud cover (biggest energy sink). We know a lot about the sun and almost nothing about cloud cover and precipitation.
OK ... now all you global warming fanatics can pray to Al Gore for wisdom ... it won't help any, but I'm sure that you'll think it does.
(I couldn't resist that last sentence ... it's the sort of meanness that atheists claim religious people practice all of the time, as though they don't do it themselves. Some people do and some people don't; it doesn't matter whether theist or atheist ... but I digress from the religion of global warming. ) | | | |
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| | SouthBronx
Posts:69

 | | 07/27/2007 9:18 AM |
Alert | Veritas,
Either you were too advanced for some of these turkeys to understand what you were saying, or they are still waiting for recount # 800 in the 2000 election.
I think you had a good post. | | | |
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| | richfellow
Posts:233


 | | 07/27/2007 10:46 AM |
Alert | Global Warming? Are these the same wackos that in the 1970's predicted the next Ice Age? Everything is cyclical and I do not worry about Global Warming or the next Ice Age.
Can anyone else explain the swing of theory by the same people in a 30 year timeframe that screamed of Ice Age and now Global Warming? | | | |
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| | Bob Floppypants
Posts:9


 | | 07/27/2007 1:08 PM |
Alert | Alright, I'll try and explain the "wackos", or as I call them: "scientists"...
I don't have my source material in front of me, so don't flame me if I have an inaccuracy or two. I'm just trying to communicate an overview from what I've read.
We are currently in an ice age, which has been going on for a few million years (2.5 million I think). This ice age is broken up by a pattern of several thousand years (maybe tens of thousands) where the temperatures temporarily rise to about where they are today, before they plunge rapidly back into typical ice age temperatures. If past patterns hold, we're nearing the end ("nearing" in this case means a few thousand years) of one of these patterns, and in a few thousand years things will likely again be quite cold.
This does not mean that the current global warming (or the now PC-term "climate change") is a bunch of hogwash. The current increase of CO2 levels which have led to global warming still fit here -- and in a bit of irony may actually prolong (but only very slightly) how long we have until the temperatures inevitably drop again. But of course, we don't want it to get too hot for us either.
As for your facts, I won't sit here and dispute them. Trees, cows, and termites may emit more, but we're the only ones that have increased our CO2 output. I don't see trees emitting more CO2 than they did 100 years ago. Yet we have have increased ours a gazillion-fold (yes I know that's not a real number) during that time span, and are still a significant contributor -- probably enough of a significant contributor to affect this delicate balance.
Oh, and I've always thought the cows belching out all that CO2 is another reason to go vegetarian, since all those cows in the feed lots would not need to be bred for meat, but that's a completely different topic.
And scientists don't use computer models to support a theory? I am a scientist. Scientists DO use computer models to support theories. There is a whole slew of literature on such models in my field and I'm sure in lots of other fields to make and support theories, especially when the topic at hand does not readily lend itself to direct laboratory observation (like in this case -- I know of no lab that can manipulate time to look hundreds or thousands of years into the future, so computer models are perfectly acceptable tools). | | | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250

 | | 07/27/2007 3:29 PM |
Alert | No problem ... I like to leave source material at work and I generally do not pay attention to discussion boards when I'm at work.
Which field(s) of science uses computers models as the basis of a theory? We use them to simulate things and they help us direct our experiments, but what theory that is widely accepted AND corresponds to reality AND is entirely based on a computer model do we use today?
When I say support a theory, I mean in a foundational way. Perhaps there is an unfortunate equivocation here?
Also, the deductions made in the literature are perfectly logical when one ignores or omits the things that I speak of.
What is your field?
I'm not so sure that there is any such thing as a delicate balance when it comes to our climate and especially climate change. It is an especially chaotic thing. Furthermore, since temperature is the key feature that we discuss in this "debate", we should consider another fundamental problem with average global temperature. It is remarkably unsound that so many scientists accept an arithmetic mean for global temperature. That measure is entirely inappropriate AND inadequate for a system so large and complex. Perhaps a geometric mean, but that would lead to a cooling trend, which is currently unacceptable in the mainstream ... but it's still not the right measure anyway.
Looking into the future with computer models that (1) do not or cannot account for the influence of cloud cover & precipitation and (2) do not use the correct mathematical measure for a key measure in the theory, seems naive at best.
I guess that a tool like this is acceptable because otherwise you'd have nothing to say but "I don't know".
A recent find (really deep ice core samples) in Greenland indicates that global warming has been "worse" in the past from the standpoint of temperature, but "not worse" in the sense of flooding, death, eyeballs bursting, everybody's dead, etc.
I am all for clean fuel technology, but not because of global warming. It's just a no-brainer that humans could do better without breathing all of the things that we add to air. Besides, we get to make and play with stuff that's way cooler than combustion engines. | | | |
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| | CODEBLEU
Posts:202

 | | 07/27/2007 6:41 PM |
Alert | The problem with Global Warming is that Mars is having one of its own as well. HMMMMM -those little green guys better stop driving those HUMVEES all over Mars.
Wheres my Cognac & Cigar... ------------Commander Codebleu | | | |
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| | Nickswebcamfriend
Posts:1292


 | | 07/27/2007 11:10 PM |
Alert | | http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=638402 | | Who's using me, what should we do? Because you can't be a pimp and a prostitute too. - White Stripes
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| | Bob Floppypants
Posts:9


 | | 07/28/2007 1:46 PM |
Alert | Veritas, my field is cognitive psychology (behavior, neuroscience, all that fun stuff). What's yours?
I'm sure you know this, but generally scientists make observations to collect data as part of an experiment. The results of which are fed to make models, which support some theory. The model is then used to make predictions, and then you go off and collect that data to support/disprove/modify these new predictions, and therefore your model and theory.
It's great when models are simple one line formulae which explain it all, but of course in complex systems (e.g. the brain, the climate), that won't do, and you need more complex models. So in such fields, experiments support models which support theories.
As I said, I'm in psychology, so I'm not a front line expert in climate change. But I'll lean to the side of PhD's who publish in the top tier journals over some radio or internet wacko with an obvious agenda. Believe me, I've been rejected enough my those top tier journals to know how solid the work has to be to get in. Does that make it foolproof? Of course not. I've never seen a paper I couldn't poke a few holes in. But you put enough of them together and it becomes a bit compelling. And I haven't seen a solid body of published evidence to the contrary. | | | |
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| | HiggsBoson
Posts:641


 | | 07/28/2007 5:01 PM |
Alert | A couple thoughts on this topic, Ill just paste the whole thing since its relatively short:
Patrick Basham directs the Democracy Institute, teaches research methods at Johns Hopkins University and is a Cato Institute adjunct scholar.
The theme of Saturday's worldwide Live Earth concerts was a call for action against climate change. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's recent reports, heralded as the final word on global warming, inspired both organizers and performers, from Al Gore to Madonna.
Opening the Washington concert leg, Mr. Gore denounced climate change skeptics "who don't understand what is now at stake." Strong words from a public figure flaunting an Oscar comprised of junk science.
Sadly, the IPCC encouraged deeply disturbing departures from sound scientific research that significantly undermine Live Earth's alarmist message. Yet, the problems with the IPCC report go much further than politicized science. They extend to the core of the climate change debate, namely the degree of scientific certainty about the causes and consequences of global warming.
Scientific uncertainty: What level of scientific certainty do IPCC's global warming claims really have?
The gold standard level of scientific certainty is the 95 percent confidence level. This allows a researcher to attest that he or she is 95 percent confident his or her findings are genuine and not due to chance. Claims that fail to meet this standard carry little scientific weight.
Applying this scientific concept to the IPCC report reveals how uncertain are the alarmists' claims. For example, not a single IPCC conclusion about the human sources of global warming meets a 95 percent confidence level standard.
There are, however, 26 claims termed "likely," meaning their chance of being true is greater than 66 percent. To put this into context, you might ask yourself how comfortable you would feel driving a car whose brakes worked only 14 times out of 20.
This has importance for understanding how much genuine scientific knowledge, as opposed to mere political posturing, the IPCC report offers. For example, the key claim — that there has been significant human-caused warming over the last 50 years — is merely "likely," according to the IPCC.
Not one of the IPCC's seven projected man-made weather trends reaches a 95 percent confidence level. This fact makes implausible the claim that human activity is the driver of climate change.
Politicized science: The IPCC's Rules of Procedure mandate not the normal scholarly peer review process but "review by governments." Furthermore, the IPCC states that, "In taking decisions and approving, adopting and accepting reports, the Panel, its Working Groups and any Task Force shall use all best endeavors to reach consensus."
Both rules suggest something other than a process committed to sound science. Science does not proceed by consensus or government review but by reliably replicable, public results always open to doubt and falsification.
Injecting government review into the scientific process corrupts the process by switching from one in which science drives policy to one in which policy drives science. In truth, these rules reveal the IPCC process for what it really is: politicized science in the service of government, rather than science in the service of the truth.
Some commentators say casting doubt on the science of climate change is the equivalent of Holocaust denial. Such thinking can only come from those who either fail to understand or choose to disown the scientific enterprise.
At the heart of the scientific enterprise is a curious and always difficult tension between certainty and the possibility that certainty can suddenly dissolve. Respectful of that tension, the climate change skeptic asks for two things: first, to bring the normal standards of scientific evidence to the climate debate; and, second, to make certain there is not some politically driven and premature closure of what is a scientific controversy.
Live Earth's inconvenient truth is that Al Gore and his friends are wrong about the strength of the climate change evidence. Using normal scientific standards, there is no proof we are causing the Earth to warm, let alone that such warming will cause an environmental catastrophe. To claim otherwise is to be untrue to the skepticism at the heart of science.
This article appeared in the Washington Times on July 11, 2007. | | Liberalism and capitalism address themselves to the cool, well-balanced mind. They proceed by strict logic, eliminating any appeal to the emotions. Socialism, on the contrary, works on the emotions, tries to violate logical considerations by rousing a sense of personal interest and to stifle the voice of reason by awakening primitive instincts. -- Ludwig Von Mises | |
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| | Bob Floppypants
Posts:9


 | | 07/28/2007 8:44 PM |
Alert | Far be it from me to take on Mr. Basham, but....
The gold standard level of scientific certainty is the 95 percent confidence level. This allows a researcher to attest that he or she is 95 percent confident his or her findings are genuine and not due to chance. Claims that fail to meet this standard carry little scientific weight.
Applying this scientific concept to the IPCC report reveals how uncertain are the alarmists' claims. For example, not a single IPCC conclusion about the human sources of global warming meets a 95 percent confidence level standard.
I'm not qute sure what they're trying to get at here, so I'll just take a guess. No study is going to get published anywhere if the statistical tests upon which you base your conclusions in an experiment are less than 95%, so he's obviously can't be talking about those, so he must be talking about model predictions, which are a whole different ballgame.
The 95% confidence level it is simply not true for determining whether a model is valid or not. No scientifically plausible model for any complex system (at least that I know of) ever ever ever accounts for 95% of the data. If you can account for more than even half of the data, you're golden. He must know this, so he can't be talking about that either...
So is he saying that if you run these models, that 14 times out of 20 the world as we know it is drastically altered because of the human contributions to global warming, while the other 6 times the model is run it doesn't? I'll put my risk assessment hat on and say that means something should be done about it, since the odds are that we are contributing to it. | | | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250

 | | 07/29/2007 9:36 PM |
Alert | Floppypants, my field is Physics. In Physics, the scientific method operates as follows.
Empirical. Systematic investigation of nature to find reproducible patterns in the structure of things and the ways they change processes.
Theoretical. Construction and analysis of models representing patterns in nature.
When it's all pulled together in an organized fashion, theories end up being a collection of models organized under physical law. Theories drive experiments and are respected when they cover a wide range of phenomena and have BOTH theoretical and empirical merit. That merit is based on appropriate mathematical structures as well as empirical lines of evidence that DO NOT fail to leave out fundamental things.
When an averaging technique (arithmetic) like the one employed in current global warming "theory" is sophomoric at best, and when the largest energy source and it's sink are ignored in any model, computer or otherwise, I have to cast serious doubt on the scientific quality of such work. It does not matter whether or not most scientists share concession to the contrary when they mistakenly or purposely omit such important things.
Bottom line, a computer model that has the wrong math and ignore factors bigger than the concentrations of gases is worth less than the silicon substrate that it's based on.
Leaning to the side of PhD's who manage to master the publication gyration is not as impressive as it may seem. In case you haven't noticed, there are some politics involved in "making the cut" and periodically there are even gross fabrications that "make the cut". Appealing to "authority is an informal fallacy of first-order logic. We all appeal to authority in science, but usually the appeal is justified by more than consensus.
As soon as I see a theory (or even a model) that uses the right mathematics for average temperature AND pays close attention to (1) the sun's energetic influence and (2) the impact of cloud cover and precipitation, then I'm likely to find some level of appeal. There is so much complexity involved in the integrated systems ... the climate, the oceans, the water cycle, and how greenhouse gas concentrations factor into it all ... we'll need another Einstein or Newton to figure it all out. | | | |
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| | alanf
Posts:1473


 | | 07/30/2007 12:39 PM |
Alert | Posted By Veritas on 07/29/2007 9:36 PM Floppypants, my field is Physics. In Physics, the scientific method operates as follows.
Empirical. Systematic investigation of nature to find reproducible patterns in the structure of things and the ways they change processes.
Theoretical. Construction and analysis of models representing patterns in nature.
When it's all pulled together in an organized fashion, theories end up being a collection of models organized under physical law. Theories drive experiments and are respected when they cover a wide range of phenomena and have BOTH theoretical and empirical merit. That merit is based on appropriate mathematical structures as well as empirical lines of evidence that DO NOT fail to leave out fundamental things.
When an averaging technique (arithmetic) like the one employed in current global warming "theory" is sophomoric at best, and when the largest energy source and it's sink are ignored in any model, computer or otherwise, I have to cast serious doubt on the scientific quality of such work. It does not matter whether or not most scientists share concession to the contrary when they mistakenly or purposely omit such important things.
Bottom line, a computer model that has the wrong math and ignore factors bigger than the concentrations of gases is worth less than the silicon substrate that it's based on.
Leaning to the side of PhD's who manage to master the publication gyration is not as impressive as it may seem. In case you haven't noticed, there are some politics involved in "making the cut" and periodically there are even gross fabrications that "make the cut". Appealing to "authority is an informal fallacy of first-order logic. We all appeal to authority in science, but usually the appeal is justified by more than consensus.
As soon as I see a theory (or even a model) that uses the right mathematics for average temperature AND pays close attention to (1) the sun's energetic influence and (2) the impact of cloud cover and precipitation, then I'm likely to find some level of appeal. There is so much complexity involved in the integrated systems ... the climate, the oceans, the water cycle, and how greenhouse gas concentrations factor into it all ... we'll need another Einstein or Newton to figure it all out.
Wow.....Wow. but I'll bet your mother still dresses you funny | | | |
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| | Bob Floppypants
Posts:9


 | | 07/30/2007 2:23 PM |
Alert | Funny that, I keep telling my mom she dresses me funny too....
From what I understand, the reasons changes in solar output and water vapor aren't used in the models is because they simply don't know enough about them yet for them to be reliable predictive variables. For instance, there may be a 11 or 22 year cycle in solar output, but we've only been measuring it for 20 years. Hardly enough time to know anything about how they truly vary over time. I'm sure as we learn more about them, they will be factored into these models. It's just simply not due to some vast left-wing conspiracy (gee, I only thought it was the liberals who subscribed to conspiracy theories).
Even without those two factors, you have to admit that the models have done a pretty darn good job of accounting for changes in temperature over the past 150 years.
As for the geometric vs. arithmetic mean, I'll admit I'm not much into the physics of calculating temperature, but can you give us your opinion on this?
http://rabett.blogspot.com/2005/11/temperature-rex-bites-essex-and.html
Bottom line. Are the models perfect? Of course not. Show me one that is. Are all predictions 100% guaranteed or your money back? Of course not, they never are. But they are the best that are out there. If only most of the predictions of these models are even just "likely" to occur, does that mean we should stand by and do nothing?
And on a side note, Veritas, I'll take a stab you are of the mind that String Theory is not a theory but philosophy? | | | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250

 | | 07/30/2007 2:26 PM |
Alert | alanf, yes ... at one time she did; but that was the 70's and one should not be surprised by that.
Have you been standing in the sun too long, or are the gases in your head just having too much trouble escaping the prominent hole in it? Maybe the ozone hole is actually in your head?
You cannot win the war of personal jabs with me ... give up now and add something meaningful here, or just go away and start your own discussion on how to look stupid in public. | | | |
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| | Veritas
Posts:250

 | | 07/30/2007 2:47 PM |
Alert | Not sure where the vast left-wing conspiracy that you're speaking of is coming from, but I can see how that appearance is reasonable. I am not surprised when scientists fail to separate their personal beliefs from the meaning of their practice.
The blog was certainly interesting, but I still have doubts about the meaning of an arithmetic mean value whether or not it matches closely with another method using an absolute temperature scale. Consider a simple averaging experiment with something like marbles or M&M's. You'll need 4 colors of whatever.
First, create a column of 4 red things, then a column of 6 yellow things, 4 blue things and finally 6 green things. What is the average number of things? If you move 1 of the "things" from the two taller columns to the 2 shorter columns, how does the uniform column height compare to the average number of things? What are we pretending is true about "the things" in this experiment?
True, models are never perfect and at best are dim shadows of reality.
Should we stand by and do nothing? Yes and no. Since we've already past the critical point according to the standard model, why bother? I'm not convinced that humanity is a major factor in the emissions game because the non-anthropogenic emitters out-emit and out-number us in a grotesque manner. Having said that, this is no excuse for wastefulness and filth. I can't fathom why we have yet to produce cleaner fuel technologies that are viable. It looks like we are very close, but the will is lacking by the consumer and the government.
Concerning String Theory, I have doubts about it's testability. It certainly answers a great number of questions that hinder other more testable theories like Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, but directly testing many of its propositions seems impossible at the current time. It's a great discussion that I'd like to see flourish. I don't think that it's simply a philosophy because it relies too heavily on theoretical constructs and methods that are not in dispute.
Dissent is too often an ugly thing ... at least in the eye of the non-dissenting beholder. | | | |
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| | Bob Floppypants
Posts:9


 | | 07/30/2007 3:18 PM |
Alert | First, create a column of 4 red things, then a column of 6 yellow things, 4 blue things and finally 6 green things. What is the average number of things? If you move 1 of the "things" from the two taller columns to the 2 shorter columns, how does the uniform column height compare to the average number of things? What are we pretending is true about "the things" in this experiment?
Ooooh!! Ooooohhh!!! Mr. Kotter!! Mr. Kotter!!
1) 5 2) they're equal 3) that 6 round objects can balance on top of each other? That there are four different types of temperatures? That an average of these "things" is even meaningful? you'll have to explain a bit further what you are actually getting at with that example.
Should we stand by and do nothing? Yes and no. Since we've already past the critical point according to the standard model, why bother?
Oh, now we think the model's predictions are accurate.  | | | |
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| | rattle2
Posts:132


 | | 07/30/2007 4:50 PM |
Alert | LOL......I agree with you Veritas. "If these people had the power, they'd probably kill and torture more people than the Inquisition did". Very well put.
| | Sometimes we just make life to difficult.
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