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| | Author | Messages | |
Bionicbunny
Posts:594
 | | 07/11/2008 12:49 PM |
 Alert | I have a question about Mormonism. When a family is sealed together here on earth, (father, mother and children) the male/head of the family here will be the head of the family (god) in their kingdom when they die, right? Well, now the children get married and have families of their own, the son is the head of his family and his family is sealed together here on earth. In the celestial kingdom, who ends up in the kingdom? Is it just the husband and wife because the kids would go with their own families? Because isn't the male the head of his celestial kingdom? I hope my question makes sense. | | | |
| | moinmoin
Posts:413
| | 07/11/2008 1:25 PM |
Alert | It makes sense, Bionic. I would say that all we know for sure is that being in the celestial kingdom means being in God's presence after the judgment. As you indicate, hopefully children will be sealed to spouses, and their children too, and so on. This makes the big eternal family really a network of couples, when the dust finally settles.
This is what happens here on earth as well, right? Our children pair off into couples and have their children; yet, they still remain a very real part of our family, even when they go off and live in Muncie, Indiana. Once the kids fly the coop and we become empty nesters, families are distilled into the basic unit of couples (realizing, of course, that we still are and always will be part of a larger family).
Does that help, Bionic?
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| | qwerty
Posts:139
| | 07/11/2008 1:41 PM |
Alert | | Like moinmoin described, the Celestial Kingdom is God's kingdom, so we would be with God and our families. I have thought a lot about what family relationships will be like after the judgment. We don't know a lot about it other than we believe that families can be together forever in the next life, so that does not suggest that we will all be in separate kingdoms as couples. :-) | | | |
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| | DaybyDay
Posts:288
| | 07/11/2008 2:20 PM |
Alert | Well, I just want to ask this question.
If you are truly in the presence of God, does it really matter? As a Christian, of course I want all of my loved ones to be at the throne of God, but I think I will be too busy worshipping His Majesty. Is there any biblical support that states this belief of sealing and families and husbands (gods)? | | | |
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| | qwerty
Posts:139
| | 07/11/2008 2:51 PM |
Alert | Bionic
When a family is sealed together here on earth, (father, mother and children) the male/head of the family here will be the head of the family (god) in their kingdom when they die, right?
This is not accurate. While we believe that we can progress after death to become like God (men and women), we don't become Gods automatically or immediately after death. There is very little doctrine around the idea of becoming like or even becoming a God, so we really don't know or focus on it at all. We focus on living righteous lives so that we can return to live with God after this life.
DaybyDay
Is there any biblical support that states this belief of sealing and families and husbands (gods)?
As far as I know, and I am not a scriptorian so moinmoin can correct me, most of the specifics around family sealings, including temple marriage ordinances, were revealed through Joseph Smith. But the idea of the power to seal or eternal marriage is not absent from the bible:
Matthew 16:19 - 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
1 Cor 11:11
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
Gen. 2: 24
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. | | | |
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| | DaybyDay
Posts:288
| | 07/11/2008 4:13 PM |
Alert | Matthew 16:19 - 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
I don't think this verse is referring to marriage. I am pretty sure its not, since the rest of the passage does not mention marriage.
1 Cor 11:11
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
This one is a little more interesting. My commentary says that this verse is not to say that one sex is better over another, but that there must be lines of authority, even in marriage. Really the whole section of verse seems to be referring to their needing to be order in worship.
Gen. 2: 24
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
While this verse does refer to marriage, and is one often used in weddings, I don't know that it is talking about an eternal marraige. I think it is saying that when you marry, you 1) leave your parents adn promise yourslef to wife/husband 2) the man and woman are joined together and take responsibility for one another in wellbeing etc... and 3) the two become one flesh (intimate).
So basically, none of this idea about being sealed in marriage on earth and then in heaven is biblical, but is man made (by Joseph Smith) and man believed (by the early LDS followers and now by you, modern day LDS). So I wonder why Joseph Smith needed to add this and for what purpose it was done. | | | |
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|  | Bionicbunny
Posts:594
| | 07/11/2008 4:21 PM |
Alert | Yes, your explainations make great sence, thank you. I just finished reading a book that talked about a womans Mormon faith and I had been meaning to ask about that since last week.
qwerty,
Matthew 16:19 I thought was referring to a persons guilt or innocense. | | | |
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| | qwerty
Posts:139
| | 07/11/2008 4:51 PM |
Alert | Matthew 16:19 - 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
I don't think this verse is referring to marriage. I am pretty sure its not, since the rest of the passage does not mention marriage.
Agreed. I'm simply saying that the idea of sealing on earth and binding in heaven is not foreign to the bible. It also talks about keys. We believe this means priesthood keys that are needed to bind or seal.
So basically, none of this idea about being sealed in marriage on earth and then in heaven is biblical, but is man made (by Joseph Smith) and man believed (by the early LDS followers and now by you, modern day LDS). So I wonder why Joseph Smith needed to add this and for what purpose it was done.
We believe Joseph Smith was a prophet so temple sealings and ordinances to us were revealed from God. I understand why you call them man made, but to us Joseph Smith did not just add these things for fun. We believe it was revelation.
Yes, your explainations make great sence, thank you. I just finished reading a book that talked about a womans Mormon faith and I had been meaning to ask about that since last week.
There are many who look at the LDS faith and say we are discriminatory towards women and that somehow they are inferrer to men. SOOOO not true. :-).
Matthew 16:19 I thought was referring to a persons guilt or innocense.
Christ is talking to Peter and saying how he is the rock upon which the Church is going to be built (v18). Then he talks about keys in v19 and sealing (binding). To me, this is talking about priesthood keys given to Peter and the ability to bind things on earth through the priesthood and they will be bound in heaven. | | | |
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| | DaybyDay
Posts:288
| | 07/12/2008 3:10 PM |
Alert | Yes, but why the NEED to have temple sealings, etc...?
The thread title head is "who will be in the kingdom?"
The answer: Those who believe that Jesus is God's son and have committed their lives to Him. And I am talking about the Biblical Jesus and none other. | | | |
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| | Serpthia...
Posts:175
| | 07/12/2008 3:54 PM |
Alert | I only have a minute more, so this has to be quick...
The Christian church is built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. A research of the Greek words Petros and Petra and a study of the chapter; paying particular attention to sentence structure should bring clear understanding of the verses.
Serp. | | | |
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| | qwerty
Posts:139
| | 07/12/2008 4:59 PM |
Alert | Yes, but why the NEED to have temple sealings, etc...?
The thread title head is "who will be in the kingdom?"
The answer: Those who believe that Jesus is God's son and have committed their lives to Him. And I am talking about the Biblical Jesus and none other.
I completely agree. While I also believe that there are necessary ordinances (baptism, temple, etc.), believing that Jesus is God's son and committing our lives to Him is paramount. We do not believe that ordinances guarantee entry into God's kingdom. One could do all the ordinances in the world, but if they don't truly believe in Christ and follow his teachings, ordinances will not make any difference. “Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me.”
Isn't the requirement of ordinances (e.g., baptism) present in other Christian faiths as well? Catholics, Baptist, etc? I admit I don't know for sure. | | | |
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| | DaybyDay
Posts:288
| | 07/12/2008 5:34 PM |
Alert | I completely agree. While I also believe that there are necessary ordinances (baptism, temple, etc.), believing that Jesus is God's son and committing our lives to Him is paramount. We do not believe that ordinances guarantee entry into God's kingdom. One could do all the ordinances in the world, but if they don't truly believe in Christ and follow his teachings, ordinances will not make any difference. “Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me.”
yes, but according to your own beliefs/by-laws you can't get into the higher kingdoms of heaven without having participated in these ordinances.
Isn't the requirement of ordinances (e.g., baptism) present in other Christian faiths as well? Catholics, Baptist, etc? I admit I don't know for sure.
Like what? Do you have an example of what you are referring to? Baptism isn't an ordinance. Baptism isn't a requirement for salvation. Belief in Jesus is a requirement for salvation. People get baptized as a step of obedience because Jesus was baptized and it was commanded by him (Jesus) "Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.. And as a "christian" shouldn't you know? | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:594
| | 07/12/2008 5:37 PM |
Alert | Baptists believe all you must do is ask Jesus in to your life to be saved. No baptism or anything else is required but it shows a love for the Lord when you choose to be baptized. When you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior the other things just follow naturally... the desire to be baptized and to do good works.
Catholics (I grew up Catholic) believe that you must baptize babies to insure their passage in to heaven if they die before they are able to make that decision on their own. I believe (but am not 100% sure) that if you convert to catholicism as an adult you must be baptized in to the church. Not submersion, just a sprinkling of holy water. | | | |
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| | qwerty
Posts:139
| | 07/12/2008 6:19 PM |
Alert | Thanks Bionic. Your reply was helpful.
DaybyDay
Baptism isn't an ordinance.
I disagree. And based on some quick google searches, there are other Christians that believe it's an ordinance too. Although I did see some sites that debated between whether it's an ordinance or a sacrement so it seems not all agree on how it is classified (surprise, surprise :-).
And as a "christian" shouldn't you know?
Shouldn't I know what? How other denominations view baptism? Based on Bionic's reply obviously not all denominations believe the same and I haven't studied them all. | | | |
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| | qwerty
Posts:139
| | 07/12/2008 6:26 PM |
Alert | yes, but according to your own beliefs/by-laws you can't get into the higher kingdoms of heaven without having participated in these ordinances.
True. See your next comment...
People get baptized as a step of obedience because Jesus was baptized and it was commanded by him (Jesus)
Exactly. It's a step of obedience and a commandment, so isn't it necessary? Why else would Jesus give commandments if they were more like "guidelines" that we didn't really need to follow (sorry for the Pirates of the Carribean pun :-)? | | | |
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| | DaybyDay
Posts:288
| | 07/12/2008 6:29 PM |
Alert | | I guess what I was saying was that you shoudl know whether it was a ordinance or not? From my reading and studying of the Bible, it doesn't say that you need baptism to be saved, but is something done from obedience. Probably, one of the first things Christians do after becoming saved. But, the question was whether participating in the temple ordinances and sacraments was something you HAD to do in order to get into heaven. From my understanding of other posts, its something you have to do in order to get into the highest level of heaven (according to LDS doctrine). And, my first question would still stand...WHY does this even need to be an ordinance or sacrament or anything. God gave us marriage for many reasons, but it doesn't say in the Bible anything to do with being together in heaven, sealing or anything like that. So, why would this be important for Joseph Smith to make a pronouncement? To me, some of this bleeds over into the forum topic about animorphism (and I totally spelled that wrong- sorry!). But, its like trying to apply human understanding to Godly doings and it can't be done. Well, I guess it can be done, but should it? | | | |
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| | qwerty
Posts:139
| | 07/12/2008 6:57 PM |
Alert | I guess what I was saying was that you shoudl know whether it was a ordinance or not?
Oh ok. I may not have been clear in that question then. I do believe it's an ordinance but I wasn't sure how others viewed it. Obviously there are some differing opinions on that.
God gave us marriage for many reasons, but it doesn't say in the Bible anything to do with being together in heaven, sealing or anything like that. So, why would this be important for Joseph Smith to make a pronouncement?
You are right. To my knowledge as well the Bible doesn't refer specifically to temple marriages. We believe temple ordinances were restored through Joseph Smith by commandment from God. We also believe that anyone who is not able to perform these ordinances in this life can have the work performed for them and have the opportunity to accept or reject it. That is the main focus of temple work and why we return to the temple even after we have performed our own ordinances. We perform ordinances on behalf of others that have past on and they choose whether or not to accept them. Just to make it clear, we do not claim them on our membership records or consider them to be Mormon after we perform ordinances for them. The choice is, of course, theirs.
To me, some of this bleeds over into the forum topic about animorphism (and I totally spelled that wrong- sorry!). But, its like trying to apply human understanding to Godly doings and it can't be done. Well, I guess it can be done, but should it?
True, but we believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, just like Moses, Noah, Elijah, etc. These were also humans but they were given their understanding and commandments from God. We believe the same was true of Joseph Smith. To me, the things taught by Joseph Smith came from God as opposed to Joseph Smith just making things up based on his human understanding. Just my belief. | | | |
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| | DaybyDay
Posts:288
| | 07/12/2008 8:43 PM |
Alert | True, but we believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, just like Moses, Noah, Elijah, etc.
Except that God called these men by name, he called them out and they were recorded in the Bible for God's purpose. There has been no such calling out of Joseph Smith. I know that you and other LDS believe this to be so; however, Joseph Smith set himself up to be a prophet (unlike modern day preachers today, who do not do this). Joseph Smith set himself up as one who received commands from God. Unlike modern preachers, who simply teach and create sermons based on the written Word of God. If a modern day preacher emerged saying that he was a prophet of God, most religious sects would probably not believe him and would turn away from him (because the Bible warns us of such people0; however, there would be people who did believe and followed (to their own peril). | | | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:2589
| | 07/12/2008 11:16 PM |
Alert | | Muslims, Jews, and Christians will be all being kicking it together....... | |
"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | RichTig
Posts:0
| | 07/13/2008 1:37 AM |
Alert | Posted By DaybyDay on 07/12/2008 8:43 PM True, but we believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, just like Moses, Noah, Elijah, etc.
Except that God called these men by name, he called them out and they were recorded in the Bible for God's purpose. There has been no such calling out of Joseph Smith. I know that you and other LDS believe this to be so; however, Joseph Smith set himself up to be a prophet (unlike modern day preachers today, who do not do this). Joseph Smith set himself up as one who received commands from God. Unlike modern preachers, who simply teach and create sermons based on the written Word of God. If a modern day preacher emerged saying that he was a prophet of God, most religious sects would probably not believe him and would turn away from him (because the Bible warns us of such people0; however, there would be people who did believe and followed (to their own peril). Jim Jones | | | |
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