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| | Author | Messages | |
Serpthia...
Posts:175

 | | 07/09/2008 2:36 PM |
Alert | A debate on this board recently got me thinking about anthropomorphism. While I think some earlier philosophers got it wrong as they posited that human qualities such as jealousy and hate are strictly human, it doesn't take away from the fact that anthropomorphism as a phenomenon is something we should be weary of. Literature is riddled with anthropomorphic animals and deities and while they have their worth in analogies, metaphors, and fables, such equivalence of ascribing should have little more room in thinking. A swan is a swan and is beautiful in their own right. As a Christian it's not that I ascribe God with human qualities; I haven't need for God to be human, but it's my belief that the whole of my qualia is reflective, of part of God. I believe I'm God's design, and because I believe God is the creator and permeates all things, I'm then permeated. Human qualia may have its roots in the supernatural, but this is a matter of faith not science. And while one can argue I believe in a fairy tale, I affirm my right to do so. But if I'm going to in part forgo my reason for more subjectively intuitive things, letting those things rest on faith, it will be for a God that is more powerful than a restrictive anthropomorphic deity can bring. Others may in their right, reason this differently. The manhood of Jesus was for our benefit, not God's. Jesus didn't need to be human for heaven's sake; he accepted being human, where he personified goodness by living the revelation of forgiveness, and in doing so, showed the clear distinction between heaven and earth, man and God. I'm have no need for anthropomorphism (my dog doesn't believe me), nor do I have the need for anthropodenial; if chimps be like us, let them be. Serp. | | | |
| | JasonY
Posts:1973


 | | 07/09/2008 2:45 PM |
Alert | Three persons........one God...........
One cannot put God in a box, because then they are no longer talking about God.......
| | "Your village called.........they're missing their idiot" | |
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| | Serpthia...
Posts:175

 | | 07/09/2008 2:51 PM |
Alert |
"One cannot put God in a box, because then they are no longer talking about God......."
I respect your answer, and cautiously agree with it. Serp. | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:229

 | | 07/09/2008 3:13 PM |
Alert | Hi, can you define this a little better?
From what I am understanding, anthromorphism is ascribing human characteristics to God? Well, I would agree...there has been much of that going on here over the past months...I addressed such a thing in the Polygamy redux thread several months ago.
Thanks.
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| | Serpthia...
Posts:175

 | | 07/09/2008 5:23 PM |
Alert | itsadryheat,
You've got it right. I would only add that it's not only a deity or deities we do it to, but also animals. Then there is anthropocentrism, which is having the view that humans are the most significant entity in the universe, but we don't want theme overload. Our need to morph and centralized most things to our own experiences is probably innate, but I think it's wise to be on the lookout for it. I take particular delight every time one of my animals does something that I consider human. I think many of us do. I'm just a little befuddled by the need of so many to humanize God.
Serp. | | | |
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| | ChimneyDuck
Posts:191

 | | 07/10/2008 9:19 AM |
Alert | Humanize God? Well, according to the bible he certainly displays human-like emotions such as jealousy, anger, mercy. He 1/3 of him (and the whole) spent a lifetime AS a human. So God was human. Again, according to the bible, we were made in his image. If not physically, then certainly mentally. The concept of eating from the tree of knowlege strongly implies that we get at least partial insight into the mind of God for our bargain with original sin. I'm a little befuddled why anyone would think the Christian God wouldn't be anthropomorphized.
As for animals and inanimate objects, our brain is heavily loaded towards our interaction with other people. It's not surprising to expect a little of that hard wiring to transfer that onto objects that we interact with everyday. And our pets survival depends on emphasising traits that enhance our interaction with them.
| | http://www.maricopabikeclub.com - Join us for a bicycle ride. | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:1973


 | | 07/10/2008 10:10 AM |
Alert | | God himself is not human. He/she can take the form of what ever he/she wants, but the essence of God itself is not human. Humans are created in the image of God, but not Gods themselves. | | "Your village called.........they're missing their idiot" | |
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| | Serpthia...
Posts:175

 | | 07/10/2008 4:24 PM |
Alert | Just consider Chimmey I'm discussing this from a religious perspective. If I were to take the word deity away and all it implies we would be having a different discussion. So, I hope you'll allow me to go out on a limb just a bit. Also, my original post wasn't well stated at all and is a bit of an embarrassment. I swear I can do better (laughs). I was thinking too much and should have held off writing it. I'm a little bit of a lazy writer too, so I normally don't think about proofreading till after I've hit send. So, I apologize if my post was hard to follow. And hopefully, even though I’m pressed for time right now this post will come out a little more coherent. I think we need to come to an agreement on the semantics of the word, so I’m going to post a wonderful definition that I have memorized; I can’t remember where it originated: “Anthropomorphism is the attribution of uniquely human characteristics to non-human creatures and beings, natural and supernatural phenomena, material states and objects or abstract concepts.” In my original post I stated earlier philosophers believed that traits such as jealousy and hate are strictly human qualities. I don’t share that belief. I believe they’re qualities of God, and from that perspective instilled in us; one would be reflecting God, not God reflecting them. We could at this point diverge into a discussion on the merits or lack thereof of hate, but I hope we can avoid it. Most Christians believe in the Trinity, three distinct separate beings and one substance. I won't dare offer an analogy that would be woefully inadequate to express the Trinity. There are several wonderful books that give great insights into it. Your statements of God’s humanization may have seemed logical to you, but your concept of the Trinity is in error and is direct cause to discard your rationale. God was never human, Jesus was. Your thinking is in line with Mormonism. What's strange to me about anthropomorphizing a deity is when it's done to the point it morphs the supernatural out of that God. The God becomes so human that there is little deity left. What’s the point? Yes, it befuddles me, and much as it befuddles me when one believes in a deity of a book that they believed is flawed. From then where is the truth gained? The deity may lodge its presence in the heart and mind of men, but there is another necessity; a need for a place where perspective can be gained away from the human mind that will deceive itself, or from the human heart that renders itself useless for all manner of things. For many Christians this is the infallible word of God, the bible. I have never thought was Jonah swallowed by a whale, but instead thought, a creator capable of creating the universe in that omnipotence is indeed capable of having Jonah swallowed by a whale. But even some Christians need to anthropomorphize the abstract concept of miracles (supernatural) into that something distinctly human and more palatable. Yet, let one of their loves ones become ill and they reach for heaven with a burst of belief and pray for a miracle of healing. Am I a literalist? I don’t even think like that. I believe the power is there. Humans create their own incongruence of faith, whether it is anthropomorphically or otherwise. One very good example of someone that anthropomorphizes to the point of ridiculousness is Sylvia Brown, the psychic. If you listen to her it seems like God is going to be having people scrubbing pot and pans and cleaning toilets in heaven. Her explanation of living in heaven very much resembles life on earth. Well, I want to state emphatically, once I’m done here on earth, I’m done cleaning toilets for good. Thank you for the cordial discourse.
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| | moinmoin
Posts:394


 | | 07/10/2008 5:47 PM |
Alert | | It’s clear that modern Christianity is overwhelmingly “anti-anthropomorphic” in its conception of God. It’s equally clear that this is a dramatic shift from early Christianity and Old Testament Judaism. "In short, to use the forbidden word, the biblical God is clearly anthropomorphic (i.e. 'in the form of man')—not apologetically so, but proudly, even militantly." [Edmond Cherbonnier (Trinity College), "In Defense of Anthropomorphism," 1978] "The Hebrews…pictured the God whom they worshipped as having a body and mind like our own, though transcending humanity in the splendour of his appearance, in his power, his wisdom, and the constancy of his care for his creatures." [Christopher Stead, Philosophy in Christian Antiquity (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1994), 120.] (Prominent Protestant Church Historian) "God was naturally conceived and represented as corporeal by uncultured Christians, though not by these alone, as the later controversies prove." (Adolf von Harnack, History of Dogma, tr. Neil Buchanan [New York: Dover, 1961], 1:180 n.1). (Early Church Father, ca. 200 A.D.) "For who will deny that God is a body, although ‘God is a Spirit?’ For Spirit has a bodily substance of its own kind, in its own form." (Tertullian, "Against Praxeas," Ε] Ante-Nicene Fathers 3:602.) (Early Church Father, ca. 225 A.D.) "For it is also to be a subject of investigation how God himself is to be understood—whether as corporeal, and formed according to some shape, or of a different nature from bodies—a point which is not clearly indicated in our teaching." [Origen, "On First Principles," (Preface, 9) Ante-Nicene Fathers 4:6.] "The Jews indeed, but also some of our people, supposed that God should be understood as a man, that is, adorned with human members and human appearance. But the philosophers despise these stories as fabulous and formed in the likeness of poetic fictions." [Origen, "Homilies on Genesis," (3:1) Ante-Nicene Fathers] The “physical = bad/spiritual-ineffable = good” dichotomy was transposed upon Christianity and Judaism by Greek philosophy."Socrates and Plato held that (God is) the One, the single self-existent nature, the monadic, the real Being, the good: and all this variety of names points immediately to mind. God therefore is mind, a separate species, that is to say what is purely immaterial and unconnected with anything passible [i.e. changeable]" [Plutarch, quoted in Eusebius, Preparation for the Gospel 14:16.] "God does not possess a head and limbs similar to those of humans…[He is] a spirit, a holy and inexpressible one." [Empedocles, (444 B.C.) in Karl Jaspers, The Great Philosophers (New York: Harcourt Brace, 1981), 3:51.] (Anglican Bishop of London) "It is easy to see what influence this school of thought [Neoplatonism] must have had upon Christian leaders. It was from it that they learnt what was involved in a metaphysical sense by calling God a Spirit. They were also helped to free themselves from their primitive eschatology and to get rid of that crude anthropomorphism which made even Tertullian believe that God had a material body." [J.W.C. Wand, A History of the Early Church to A.D. 500 (London: Methuen & Co., 1937), 140.] "If we now examine the forms of thought and philosophical systems current at the time when Christianity first made its appearance in the world, it is clear that they were by no means ready to assimilate this Christian conception: on the contrary, they were wholly antagonistic thereto." [Cardinal Jean Daniélou, The Lord of History: Reflections on the Inner Meaning of History, translated by N. Abercrombie (Chicago: Henry Regnery, 1958), 1.] Despite biblical injunctions against seeing God and living, the Bible records cases when men have seen God and lived.(Professor of Hebrew and Comparative Semitics at Ohio State University) "A deity’s physical manifestation is seen by human beings. The appearance of gods and their involvement with humans are common motifs in ancient Near Eastern and classical mythology. That similar phenomena are found in the Bible seems problematic at first, for a persistent tradition in the Hebrew Bible affirmed that death comes to any human who sees God. In most of these contexts, however, the narration undermines this sentiment by depicting the pleasant surprise of those who survive. The text presents this perspective as a misperception to which human beings subscribe, for no humans in the Bible ever die simply because they have seen God. On the contrary, throughout the Bible God wants to communicate intimately with humans. The problem of how God can adequately show himself to humankind without harm is a conundrum that is never really resolved in the Bible." [Samuel A. Meier, “Theophany,” in Bruce M. Metzger and Michael D. Coogan, eds., The Oxford Companion to the Bible (New York: Oxford University Press, 1993), 740.] This is well-explained by Peter in the “Clementine Homilies,” a 3rd century apocryphal work. God uses His power to enable people to see him and live when this happens."For I maintain that the eyes of mortals cannot see the incorporeal form of the Father or Son, because it is illumined by exceeding great light … For he who sees God cannot live. For the excess of light dissolves the flesh of him who sees; unless by the secret power of God the flesh be changed into the nature of light, so that it can see light." In the Clementine Homilies,” anyway, Peter affirms the anthropomorphic nature of God to Simon Magus:"And Simon said: ‘I should like to know, Peter, if you really believe that the shape of man has been moulded after the shape of God.’ And Peter said: ‘I am really quite certain, Simon, that this is the case … It is the shape of the just God." [Clementine Homilies 17:16. In Ante-Nicean Fathers 8:223, 347.] | | | |
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| | Serpthia...
Posts:175

 | | 07/12/2008 3:50 PM |
Alert | I think the anthropomorphic language (there is a distinction between using the language metaphorically and ascribing qualities) in the Bible is natural and something one would expect to see when the relationship with God is both personal and rationale. Image and likeness (selem and demut), being fact to face, the smelling of sacrifice, the mention of God's eyes, is language used as to be instrumental in conveying God's sovereignty and uniqueness while offering the grounds for personalization. Yet, the imagery also meticulously avoids revealing God's holy mysteries, including absolute nature. But none of this can be considered true anthropomorphism anyway. I think the word has been incorrectly applied in the literature I’ve read. God instilling life with qualities he possesses, even if those qualities, or outcroppings, are unique only unto flesh is not anthropomorphism. Anthropomorphism takes place when humans humanize, and in order for God to anthropomorphize he would have to be human and then ascribe, or inspire others to ascribe those qualities of humanness to the nonhuman creatures he created. Anyway, when anthropomorphic language is used in the Bible since most Christians believe the bible is divinely inspired and that it’s not mans’ thoughts that inspired the language the point becomes moot. If we’re to take what the religious connotations of anthropomorphism are, which is a watering down of the impact of the word: perceiving God as human, as in flesh and bones, or just human form without flesh and bones, or recognition of human qualities in God, I would expect the word to fly adequate excursions fancily all over place, as it does. What a gentile nature the words perceiving and recognition have brought on the subject. The word anthropomorphic becomes relevant in the debate with Mormons only if God is not flesh and bones. It’s my opinion that Mormons wrongly anthropomorphize God. The debate of God's corporeality and essential nature is a major source of contention that is not going to be resolved. There needs to be honest dialog so respect can manifest in a way that is lasting until God intercedes. The first step would be an acknowledgment that they’re two separate religions with very little in common, which since the Lord is not dictatorial has a right to exist in their rightness or wrongness, but that doesn’t mean the debate shouldn’t continue. Serp. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:394


 | | 07/14/2008 9:32 AM |
Alert | One thing's sure: If God, in fact, does not have a physical body, then no amount of Mormon explanations and arguments to the contrary will make it so.
On the other hand, if God does, in fact, have a physical body, then no amount of sophistry, philosophizing, etc. to the contrary will make things otherwise.
Mormons base their belief in anthropomorphism on eyewitness testimony and confirmation of the spirit. Those who deny God's anthropomorphism do so, not based on the Bible, which is actually "militantly anthropomorphic," to borrow from Dr. Cherbonnier above, but rather from the dictates of neo-Platonic philosophy that require God to be "ineffable," "wholy other," etc. | | | |
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| | ChimneyDuck
Posts:191

 | | 07/14/2008 10:30 AM |
Alert | Thanks for your explanation Serpthia. I'm not sure that I agree that most church going Christians are undeifying God, but I see your point with the fringe pseudo-science/religion crowd (psychics, ghost hunters and the like). Perhaps the pseudo crowd is growing?
As a former Catholic, I feel I understand the Trinity as much as can be expected to understand a paradox.
Jesus = God is part of the trinity. And in that sense God was human. I was being a bit sarcastic in my remark, so I can see where I might have led you astray in thinking I didn't understand the trinity. I emphasized this by remarking on the paradox that each part of the trinity is the whole of God, since he is indivisible.
However I do realize that the Father, the Creator = God as well, and he was never human. He too comprises all of God, since God is one being (we don't want to be accused of heresy here and be said to worship more than one God here. It may be confusing here as many people associate the word God with the Father, perhaps this may be because it is the Father that claims the term God in the old testament, with little direct reference to the other two.
And though usually no one mentions him by name these days the Holy Spirit = God as well, whom as unlikely as it may seem comprises all of God.
So: God is Jesus God is the Father God is the Holy Spirit
However Jesus is not the Father Jesus is not the Holy Spirit and the Father is not the Holy Spirit
| | http://www.maricopabikeclub.com - Join us for a bicycle ride. | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:229

 | | 07/14/2008 12:26 PM |
Alert | So: God is Jesus God is the Father God is the Holy Spirit
However Jesus is not the Father Jesus is not the Holy Spirit and the Father is not the Holy Spirit
All three are one and the same. | | | |
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| | ChimneyDuck
Posts:191

 | | 07/14/2008 1:20 PM |
Alert | | Yes, all three are one and the same, but distinct (meaning they are separate entities.) If you believe only that they are all the same then you are a unitarian, not a trinitarian. | | http://www.maricopabikeclub.com - Join us for a bicycle ride. | |
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| | JAG
Posts:477


 | | 07/14/2008 2:29 PM |
Alert | Our thought process is the same as Gods, we hold the same emotions as well. Look at parallels between Evolution and our ability to create inner and new species. | | | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:1973


 | | 07/14/2008 3:06 PM |
Alert | I don't think, as humans, we can even begin to imagine the thought process of God. Our brains would implode.......... | | "Your village called.........they're missing their idiot" | |
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| | JAG
Posts:477


 | | 07/15/2008 2:17 PM |
Alert | Posted By JasonY on 07/14/2008 3:06 PM
I don't think, as humans, we can even begin to imagine the thought process of God. Our brains would implode.......... There is a differance between thought process and thought capability. | | | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:1973


 | | 07/15/2008 3:41 PM |
Alert | | To think like God, you must be God......... | | "Your village called.........they're missing their idiot" | |
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| | qwerty
Posts:135


 | | 07/15/2008 3:59 PM |
Alert | To think like God, you must be God......... We don't think like God in the sense that we have his exactly SAME thought process. Maybe it's better explained that we HAVE thought as inherited from God as our creator.
"Cogito, ergo sum" :-) | | | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:1973


 | | 07/15/2008 4:08 PM |
Alert | | All you need is love....... | | "Your village called.........they're missing their idiot" | |
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