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| | Author | Messages | |
JasonY
Posts:1821
 | | 07/22/2008 8:36 AM |
 Alert | Posted By EEE on 07/22/2008 6:41 AM Well you need to understand moinmoin's god was once a man just like him, so of course there will be limitations to his god.
To say that implies that any man can become a God, which is straight up heresy to me, but that's just me...... 
God became man (Jesus) because he choose to, though he was also God as Jesus at the same time..... | |
"Your village called.........they're missing their idiot" | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:377
| | 07/22/2008 9:41 AM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 07/22/2008 6:41 AM Well you need to understand moinmoin's god was once a man just like him, so of course there will be limitations to his god. Joseph Smith taught that the Father had been a Savior. This is hardly "a man just like me." I am not a Savior, and never will be. I have need of a Savior because I am fallen, sinful man. Please don't intentionally give the impression in the future that we believe that God was some "Joe six-pack." | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:509
| | 07/22/2008 9:55 AM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 07/21/2008 4:01 PM Posted By Bionicbunny on 07/21/2008 3:48 PM . . . Because you can't find one example of something that God can not do? Can God decide to let every single person who has ever lived on earth return to His presence, regardless of whether we accept His Son, His Gospel, etc.? Not would He or should He, but can He? Is He able to do this, if He wants to? If not, why not?
Of course He can do that. Read the book of Job. Jobs friends were not dealt with according to their folly because Job prayed for them and God accepted Jobs prayer.
God can do whatever He wants to do. Pay special attention to Job 42:1&2 you will see "Then Job replied to the LORD; "I know that you can do all things..." | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374
| | 07/22/2008 9:59 AM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 07/22/2008 9:41 AM Posted By EEE on 07/22/2008 6:41 AM Well you need to understand moinmoin's god was once a man just like him, so of course there will be limitations to his god. We have had some protracted discussions on other threads on this, and you know better, EEE. To continue to use the same canards you have been corrected on is tantamount to bearing false witness, isn't it? Joseph Smith taught that the Father had been a Savior. This is hardly "a man just like me." I am not a Savior, and never will be. I have need of a Savior because I am fallen, sinful man. Please don't intentionally give the impression in the future that we believe that God was some "Joe six-pack."
There are enough Mormon threads, so I won't continue this converstion. But we will let the readers decide what your leader teaches about your god.
Joseph Smith said: I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know him and to be familiar with him; and if I can bring you to a knowledge of him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am his servant; for I speak as one having authority. I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,-I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form-like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another. http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_06/refJDvol6-1.html | |
Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | RichTig
Posts:0
| | 07/22/2008 10:05 AM |
Alert | I would equate Joseph Smith with L. Ron Hubbard. False Prophets. But that's just me. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:377
| | 07/22/2008 1:36 PM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 07/22/2008 9:59 AM There are enough Mormon threads, so I won't continue this converstion. But we will let the readers decide what your leader teaches about your god. Joseph Smith said: I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know him and to be familiar with him; and if I can bring you to a knowledge of him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am his servant; for I speak as one having authority. I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,-I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form-like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another. http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_06/refJDvol6-1.html This is exactly what is so exasperating in answering the same old criticisms time after time, EEE. We have been over this in at least two other threads, and yet you feign ignorance. I don't think you've ever even read the talk you linked to, you simply include the "talking points" excerpt from whatever anti-Mormon ministry you got the reference from. Two sentences after what you pasted from the talk, Joseph Smith says: It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did . . . What did Jesus say? . . . The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power"-to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious-in a manner, to lay down his body and take up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. A few months after this talk (and actually two weeks before his murder in Carthage, Illinois), Joseph Smith reiterated this: I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. He did as He was sent, to lay down His life and take it up again; and then was committed unto Him the keys.http://emp.byui.edu/jexj/courses/sermon_in_the_grove.htm I have pointed this out to you more than once, EEE, and yet you continue to represent Mormons as believing that God was "just some guy" on an earth somewhere. Having been a Savior Himself is very different than having been "just some guy," isn't it? And you'll probably continue to misrepresent this and rely on people's unfamiliarity with sources and reluctance to read sources. It's frustrating. | | | |
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|  | Bionicbunny
Posts:509
| | 07/22/2008 1:51 PM |
Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 07/22/2008 9:55 AM Posted By moinmoin on 07/21/2008 4:01 PM Posted By Bionicbunny on 07/21/2008 3:48 PM . . . Because you can't find one example of something that God can not do? Can God decide to let every single person who has ever lived on earth return to His presence, regardless of whether we accept His Son, His Gospel, etc.? Not would He or should He, but can He? Is He able to do this, if He wants to? If not, why not?
Of course He can do that. Read the book of Job. Jobs friends were not dealt with according to their folly because Job prayed for them and God accepted Jobs prayer.
God can do whatever He wants to do. Pay special attention to Job 42:1&2 you will see "Then Job replied to the LORD; "I know that you can do all things..." | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:509
| | 07/22/2008 1:54 PM |
Alert | I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. He did as He was sent, to lay down His life and take it up again; and then was committed unto Him the keys.
So are you saying that we are part of a cycle? Jesus layed down his life like his father had done before. What, with another world full of people? Also this makes it sound like Jesus laying down his life was for more than just to save us sinners. It makes it sound like he did it to get keys. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:377
| | 07/22/2008 1:59 PM |
Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 07/21/2008 3:51 PM Posted By moinmoin on 07/21/2008 2:28 PM
As I said, I don't think there's really any functional or practical difference, when the rubber hits the road, between whether God can do absolutely anything at all, or whether He is limited as described above. He's still all-powerful in all ways that matter. Ah, but it does matter. I'm sure it matters to God who states more than once in the Bible that all things are possible with Him and you are telling people it isn't true! The one major difference, and it's a crucial one, would be the question I asked and which you answered as to whether God can decide to let people return, even if they don't accept His gospel. That is, could God simply have decided to save all of us without sending His Son as a Savior? Mormonism, and the Book of Mormon in particular, teaches that God is limited by the eternal law of justice, that in fact, keeping the law of justice is what makes God God. If he were to do anything unjust, He would cease to be God and His works wouldn't obey Him. It seems that many others here, to be consistent with claiming that God can do absolutely antything, insist that God could do unjust things or whatever He wants, even bad things, because He's God and created everything out of nothing. Granted that our trust in Him is well-placed and He's not going to do this, that isn't the question. The question is "Can He do unjust of bad things and still be God?" This is a good discussion, by the way! | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:377
| | 07/22/2008 2:23 PM |
Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 07/22/2008 1:54 PM I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. He did as He was sent, to lay down His life and take it up again; and then was committed unto Him the keys.
So are you saying that we are part of a cycle? Jesus layed down his life like his father had done before. What, with another world full of people? Also this makes it sound like Jesus laying down his life was for more than just to save us sinners. It makes it sound like he did it to get keys. We believe that Jesus, as the Firstborn spirit Son of Heavenly Father (and therefore our spirit brother), was ordained to be our Savior when we accepted God's plan, a plan that has been carried out on other worlds. We would come to earth, gain a physical body and the experience that entails (joy, sadness, pain, sickness, weakness, sin, triumph, etc.), and would not be able to remember our pre-earth existence as spirit children so that our choices would depend on faith. Jesus would be sent in the meridian of time to provide a way to overcome the effects of our our fallen states and return to live with our Father in Heaven. A large part of the plan of salvation is to receive a glorified physical body like our heavenly parents, and this was a necessary step even for Jesus, who was God along with His Father even before coming to earth. His death and resurrection were necessary for Him to become fully like His Father, even though Jesus had created the earth and was the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. | | | |
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| | DaybyDay
Posts:255
| | 07/22/2008 2:56 PM |
Alert | Yes, I think that's an accurate way to look at it. We all grow, first as spirit children before coming to earth, then as mortals on earth, and then as resurrected children of God after this life. Those who are allowed to live in God's presence will be able to continue to have spirit children. As far as a cycle goes, we are not the first earth or the last, and one of our books of scripture, the Pearl of Great Price, records God telling Mose "worlds without number have I created."
We believe that Jesus, as the Firstborn spirit Son of Heavenly Father (and therefore our spirit brother), was ordained to be our Savior when we accepted God's plan, a plan that has been carried out on other worlds. We would come to earth, gain a physical body and the experience that entails (joy, sadness, pain, sickness, weakness, sin, triumph, etc.), and would not be able to remember our pre-earth existence as spirit children so that our choices would depend on faith. Jesus would be sent in the meridian of time to provide a way to overcome the effects of our our fallen states and return to live with our Father in Heaven. A large part of the plan of salvation is to receive a glorified physical body like our heavenly parents, and this was a necessary step even for Jesus, who was God along with His Father even before coming to earth. His death and resurrection were necessary for Him to become fully like His Father, even though Jesus had created the earth and was the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Just for the record. NONE of this is Biblical. But, is all LDS belief. If you look in the Bible to find support of this stuff, you will not find it. Why? Because it is NOT Biblical. How do I know this for certain? There is no Biblical scripture written to support any of it. This is so un-Biblical that I am mortified and speechless....Are we good enough? Romans 3:23-25 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; The Bible says that there is none good enough. "There is none who does good, there is not even one," (Rom. 3:12). Goodness is measured by God's standard - not yours.To say that you are good enough means that Christ did not have to die. But He did die to save sinners. The Bible says if righteousness can come by good deeds, then Christ didn't need to die (Gal. 2:21); but He did, so being good isn't enough. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:377
| | 07/22/2008 3:14 PM |
Alert | Just out of curiousity, DaybyDay, where exactly did you get from what I summarized that we somehow think we are "good enough?" We teach and believe that we stand in need of Christ's grace and atonement every bit as much as evangelicals do.
This whole "grace vs. works" thing is a false issue. I don't know any Christians, regardless of what "kind" they are, who believe that they have to work themselves to heaven or that they can save themselves without Christ. The constant effort to paint Mormonism with this brush constitutes the bearing of false witness. It is an effort to poison the well against Mormonism and to exercise "boundary maintenance" (keep people from within the fold from crossing over). | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:509
| | 07/22/2008 4:33 PM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 07/22/2008 2:23 PM Posted By Bionicbunny on 07/22/2008 1:54 PM Also this makes it sound like Jesus laying down his life was for more than just to save us sinners. It makes it sound like he did it to get keys. Yes, I think that's an accurate way to look at it. So basically you believe he was killing two birds with one stone. He wanted these keys and saved the sinners in the process. This is so disturbing! | | | |
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| | DaybyDay
Posts:255
| | 07/22/2008 4:33 PM |
Alert | | I was responding to the thread topic "Are you a good person?" I wasn't responding (except for how I did respond) to any grace v works. In fact, I didn't really see the initial topic as a question about LDS, but about whether we were good enough, on our own, to get into heaven. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:377
| | 07/22/2008 4:54 PM |
Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 07/22/2008 4:33 PM So basically you believe he was killing two birds with one stone. He wanted these keys and saved the sinners in the process. This is so disturbing! What "keys" are you referring to? I didn't say anything about "keys." If you're referring to Jesus needing a body like all of us, that's one thing. But I don't think that's what you're asking about. Can you clarify? ---Edit: Oh, I see. From the Joseph Smith quote. Regardless of what words one uses (keys, etc.), Jesus overcame. He "trod the winepress," He "drank the bitter cup," etc., and He ascended to His Father. He overcame death and hell and prepared the way for us to return. Through the process of providing salvation from us, His Father's "keys" were committed unto Him. What do you find disturbing about that? | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:509
| | 07/22/2008 5:09 PM |
Alert | | So with all the power God has, you don't think He would have included all this additional Mormon stuff the first time around. You believe He is that imperfect? He needed to send a new guy (Joseph Smith), who the Bible doesn't mention at all except to warn about false prophets, to finish the job? Sending His son wasn't enough? | | | |
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| | RichTig
Posts:0
| | 07/22/2008 5:11 PM |
Alert | Jim Jones L Ron Hubbard Joseph Smith | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:509
| | 07/22/2008 5:19 PM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 07/22/2008 4:54 PM Posted By Bionicbunny on 07/22/2008 4:33 PM So basically you believe he was killing two birds with one stone. He wanted these keys and saved the sinners in the process. This is so disturbing! What "keys" are you referring to? I didn't say anything about "keys." If you're referring to Jesus needing a body like all of us, that's one thing. But I don't think that's what you're asking about. Can you clarify? ---Edit: Oh, I see. From the Joseph Smith quote. Regardless of what words one uses (keys, etc.), Jesus overcame. He "trod the winepress," He "drank the bitter cup," etc., and He ascended to His Father. He overcame death and hell and prepared the way for us to return. Through the process of providing salvation from us, His Father's "keys" were committed unto Him. What do you find disturbing about that?
I'll say it again, what is disturbing is that, according to Mormons, the reason Jesus suffered, died and was resurected was to become a God like his father and get these keys that you talk about. The fact that he saves us is just a nice little bonus. He didn't die because He loves us. For God so loves the world that he gave Jesus a chance to get a promotion. | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:472
| | 07/22/2008 6:30 PM |
Alert | I'll say it again, what is disturbing is that, according to Mormons, the reason Jesus suffered, died and was resurected was to become a God like his father and get these keys that you talk about. The fact that he saves us is just a nice little bonus. He didn't die because He loves us. For God so loves the world that he gave Jesus a chance to get a promotion.
Jesus was already a God - We don't believe He did anything for Himself. He did as the Father did, He did as the Father asked, and He layed down His life so the rest of us (who are not perfect) can return to live with God.
Even under the consideration that the tone of your post is correct (which is isn't), have you never done something completely unselfish and received blessings for it? There are times in my life when I have done things soley for someone else and received blessings for doing them - sometimes I have known I would receive the blessings (that feel-good feeling the spirit gives) and sometimes I haven't known I would receive the blessing, (a gift of thanks from someone.)
I have suspicions of what the keys are that JS was talking about - but I'm not certain I am correct, so I don't want to touch that topic. Perhaps moinmoin can clarify that point. . .
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:509
| | 07/22/2008 11:24 PM |
Alert | Posted By love@hm on 07/22/2008 6:30 PM I'll say it again, what is disturbing is that, according to Mormons, the reason Jesus suffered, died and was resurected was to become a God like his father and get these keys that you talk about. The fact that he saves us is just a nice little bonus. He didn't die because He loves us. For God so loves the world that he gave Jesus a chance to get a promotion.
Jesus was already a God - We don't believe He did anything for Himself. He did as the Father did, He did as the Father asked, and He layed down His life so the rest of us (who are not perfect) can return to live with God.
Even under the consideration that the tone of your post is correct (which is isn't), have you never done something completely unselfish and received blessings for it? There are times in my life when I have done things soley for someone else and received blessings for doing them - sometimes I have known I would receive the blessings (that feel-good feeling the spirit gives) and sometimes I haven't known I would receive the blessing, (a gift of thanks from someone.)
I have suspicions of what the keys are that JS was talking about - but I'm not certain I am correct, so I don't want to touch that topic. Perhaps moinmoin can clarify that point. . .
I got that you believe that Jesus was already God, but moinmoin posted this:
Jesus would be sent in the meridian of time to provide a way to overcome the effects of our our fallen states and return to live with our Father in Heaven. A large part of the plan of salvation is to receive a glorified physical body like our heavenly parents, and this was a necessary step even for Jesus, and this: His death and resurrection were necessary for Him to become fully like His Father No I think the tone of my post was correct. I believe the Bible which says that Jesus died on the cross for us because He loves us, not because it was a necessary step for him in order to become like his father. I asked this before but never got an answer (that I saw, it is very possible that I totally missed it). With all the power God has, you don't think He would have included all this additional Mormon stuff the first time around. You believe He is that imperfect? He needed to send a new guy (Joseph Smith), who the Bible doesn't mention at all except to warn about false prophets, to finish the job? | | | |
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