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| | Author | Messages | |
JasonY
Posts:1821


 | | 07/20/2008 7:59 AM |
Alert | | Well that wasn't very nice.......there is lots of good skiing in Utah.... | | "Your village called.........they're missing their idiot" | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:226

 | | 07/20/2008 4:07 PM |
Alert | Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
I would say that people need to read the Word of God (The Bible) and ask questions and seek the Truth. | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374


 | | 07/20/2008 7:29 PM |
Alert | I'm still wondering where the evidence is that proves the Book of Mormon. Of course I am not surprised, the Book of Mormon has already proved itself by being untrue by contradicting the Bible. For example BOM says 1) God was supposedly pleased that Adam sinned where the Bible says God hates and is displeased with all who have sinned. 2) Faith plus works for Salvation where the bible says its by faith alone for Salvation. Proof is actually in the pudding in this case. And just a fun fact about me, I've read the BOM 3 years ago when I had to spend a few months in Utah for work. And no I never prayed to see if it's true, the bible never tells us to pray for truth but to seek his word for truth. See 2 Timothy. | | Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/ But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/ The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/ to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:377


 | | 07/21/2008 7:46 AM |
Alert | Posted By itsadryheat on 07/20/2008 4:07 PM
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 100% agreed. What makes you think that we see things otherwise? Only your non-biblical equation of "word of God is and only is the Bible." | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:377


 | | 07/21/2008 7:57 AM |
Alert | Posted By EEE on 07/20/2008 7:29 PM I'm still wondering where the evidence is that proves the Book of Mormon. Nothing will "prove" anything to anybody who doesn't want it proven. Look at how many people choose to believe the Bible to be fiction, despite all evidences and arguments to the contrary. All I'm looking to do is give those who insist that there's not a shred of evidence for the Book of Mormon's authenticity something to think about. Incidentally, EEE, how do you account for the existence of the things I've pointed out so far (deseret, Nahom, plausible "reformed Egyptian," etc.)? A clever hoax by semi-literate rustics in upstate New York in the 1820s?Of course I am not surprised, the Book of Mormon has already proved itself by being untrue by contradicting the Bible. For example BOM says 1) God was supposedly pleased that Adam sinned where the Bible says God hates and is displeased with all who have sinned. 2) Faith plus works for Salvation where the bible says its by faith alone for Salvation. Proof is actually in the pudding in this case. I'm going to have to insist on precision in paraphrasing here. Please point out where the Book of Mormon says that "God was supposedly pleased that Adam sinned?" For that matter, where does the Bible say that "God hates . . . all who have sinned?"If it's so cut-and-dried that the New Testament conclusively teaches salvation by faith alone, why do many other Christians (people you fellowship as Christians) interpret it differently to include works as an important part of the equation as well? We're all aware of your standard proof texts from Paul's writings, but you ignore the rest of the New Testament that provides balance, even parts of Paul's writings where he emphasizes what you call "works." And just a fun fact about me, I've read the BOM 3 years ago when I had to spend a few months in Utah for work. And no I never prayed to see if it's true, the bible never tells us to pray for truth but to seek his word for truth. See 2 Timothy. Please point out where in 2 Timothy "the Bible . . . tells us [never] to pray for truth but to seek his word [only]? | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:226

 | | 07/21/2008 10:15 AM |
Alert | Only your non-biblical equation of "word of God is and only is the Bible."
That's EXACTLY why.
If it's so cut-and-dried that the New Testament conclusively teaches salvation by faith alone, why do many other Christians (people you fellowship as Christians) interpret it differently to include works as an important part of the equation as well?
We don't. Some people may misunderstand what is being asked of them. But, when you mature in the Word, and you do your own understanding, read the Bible for yourself, and you seek the Bible for the Truth, then you begin to understand God's meaning in some of these verses.
Please point out where in 2 Timothy "the Bible . . . tells us [never] to pray for truth but to seek his word [only]?
Where does it tell us to do that? This is something LDS tell you to do, but our hearts are fickle and sick, Jeremian 17:9 says, "9 The heart is more deceitful than anything else
and desperately sick—who can understand it?" and they fail us, Ps 73:26, "Psalm 73:26
My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. and Ecclesiastes 11:9
Be happy, young man, while you are young, and let your heart give you joy in the days of your youth. Follow the ways of your heart and whatever your eyes see, but know that for all these things God will bring you to judgment.
Instead of praying to see if the Book of Mormon is true...PRAY that God point you in a direction in which you woudl get to know Him and His Son more closely.
The Bible warns against teaching "another Gospel:
2 Corinthians 11:2 - For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Galatians 1:6-9 - I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:377


 | | 07/21/2008 11:00 AM |
Alert | Posted By itsadryheat on 07/21/2008 10:15 AM But, when you mature in the Word, and you read the Bible for yourself, and you seek the Bible for the Truth, then you begin to understand God's meaning in some of these verses. But as I've pointed out, non-Mormon Christians differ sharply even from your Calvary Chapel/non-denominational/born again/evangelical interpretations in reading the same Bible. And you insist on excluding impressions, promptings, and feelings from the process in how God speaks to us. I must admit that it gets to be a little perplexing to be told that if I will only read the Bible (and I probably read it more than you do), it will be very obvious why your interpretation is right and mine is wrong. Interpretations of the Bible run the whole spectrum.
Where does [the Bible] tell us [not to pray about truth]? This is something LDS tell you to do, but our hearts are fickle and sick, Jeremian 17:9 says, "9 The heart is more deceitful than anything else
and desperately sick—who can understand it?" and they fail us, Ps 73:26, "Psalm 73:26
My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. and Ecclesiastes 11:9
Be happy, young man, while you are young, and let your heart give you joy in the days of your youth. Follow the ways of your heart and whatever your eyes see, but know that for all these things God will bring you to judgment. See, I wholeheartedly agree with these passages, and none of them tell someone not to pray about truth. They tell us that we need to know our fallen nature and take this into account when discerning answers through prayer.Remember, James 1:5 (and the surrounding context) was what inspired Joseph Smith to pray as a teenager and ask God which church was right, and which one he should join. Here is one passage that contradicts what you and others claim: we are supposed to ask God about anything in which we lack knowledge, and He will give liberally and not chastise us if we ask in faith.
Instead of praying to see if the Book of Mormon is true...PRAY that God point you in a direction in which you woudl get to know Him and His Son more closely. But many people pray for just this and find the Holy Spirit leading them to join The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And you simply dismiss their personal testimony as "deceived," "ignorant," etc.
The Bible warns against teaching "another Gospel" Of course, I maintain that the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is not another gospel, but the fulness of the gospel restored on earth. Note that your second proof-text mentions Paul being amazed with how quickly the Galatians had strayed from what they had been taught. You hold this up as a warning to Mormons about being led astray by another gospel, but it illustrates the real challenges of the apostasy that the apostles dealt with (until they were killed, which further hindered the ability to combat apostasy and ensure purity of doctrine and practice). You tacitly acknowledge this apostasy, because you are not Catholic; you recognize a need to drastically "reform" the church that had strayed over the centuries.Do you consider Catholicism to be "another gospel?" | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:442


 | | 07/21/2008 11:44 AM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 07/21/2008 11:00 AM Do you consider Catholicism to be "another gospel?"
You could not make that statement, while the Catholic OT does infact have more books in them. It is still the same NT, and in fact was put together, maintained, and protected by the Catholic Church for ~2000yrs now. Do you really think that we would even have a bible if Ireland was not made into a safe havan during the darkage? | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:377


 | | 07/21/2008 11:47 AM |
Alert | | I'm interested in whether itsadryheat or EEE consider Catholicism to be "another gospel." I think EEE is already on record on this, but could be wrong . . . | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:442


 | | 07/21/2008 11:52 AM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 07/21/2008 11:47 AM
I'm interested in whether itsadryheat or EEE consider Catholicism to be "another gospel." I think EEE is already on record on this, but could be wrong . . . If that is indeed that case, they they would have to state that Christianity did not actually start until the 16th century, because the only surviving Messiah faiths from 32ad are messianic Jews and catholics, although I do beleive their are some gnostic faiths in Asia. | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:226

 | | 07/21/2008 2:30 PM |
Alert | In regards to Catholics...only God knows their hearts. I have some friends that are Catholic that I know believe in Jesus and He is their Savior. Whenever, I talk with them and they have issues...say for instance, they want their priest to pray over them or do something like that, I remind them that with Jesus they can go right to God and do not need a mediator to do these things for them. I think I will end my involvement in this conversation and maybe others like it, Matthew 7:6 says, "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." And, I dont know that going back and forth really is benefitting anyone. Although, I do believe that I have gained some insight into (at least) your LDS beliefs/mind. And, again, I would ask that anyone who is contemplating reading the Book of Mormom should look at this and other threads regading similiar topics and ask themselves what the Truth is and then set about searching for it. I may pop in (not into this conversation) but to others if I see that the Bible is being terribly misrepresented and misinterpreted, which is really why I even started these conversations to begin with. Because I saw scripture being used grossly out of context. Moinmoin, you don't know how much I read the Bible or how much I don't, so while that might have been nice way to "dig" it gets you no where. My other hope is that Christians would not only step forward and become Christian extemesists, and I mean this, in speaking the Truth in Love to others, but that they would do it not only here but in their lives as well. Moinmoin, you started this thread saying you have evidences. Many of us have basically asked you to "show us what you got" which in my opinion you have not done. My hope is that, " will the eyes of the blind be opened
and the ears of the deaf unstopped" (Isa 35:5) when it comes to this topic. Lastly, On "The Mormon Testimony": 1 Thessalonians 5:21 - Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good. and Proverbs 14:12 - There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof is the are the ways of death. On working for salvation: John 6:28,29 - Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
On Truth: 1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
On the atonement of the cross: 1 Peter 2:24 -Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. On becoming a god: Deuteronomy 4:35 - Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. On God as Spirit, not a spirit who was once a man: Numbers 23:19 - God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? On Grace for Salvation: 2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (God became sin, so that we could receive his imputed righteousness.) Jesus was man AND God: 1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and there is one who brings God and human beings together, the man Christ Jesus, | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:377


 | | 07/21/2008 3:27 PM |
Alert | Posted By itsadryheat on 07/21/2008 2:30 PM In regards to Catholics...only God knows their hearts. I have some friends that are Catholic that I know believe in Jesus and He is their Savior. But you don't allow the "only God knows their hearts" clause in the Mormons' case, do you?This is kind of skirting the issue. I asked, because I've found in my experience that people who strongly disapprove of Mormonism usually harbor similar views towards Catholicism, although they don't like to admit it. The same people who accuse Mormons of believing "another gospel" feel the same way about the Catholic Church, deep down. Moinmoin, you don't know how much I read the Bible or how much I don't, so while that might have been nice way to "dig" it gets you no where. This wasn't intended as a "dig." I'm sure that you read and cherish the Bible. I took issue with the fact that, based on your and others' posts, my Bible reading doesn't seem to "count" because I don't interpret it how you insist I interpret it.Moinmoin, you started this thread saying you have evidences. Many of us have basically asked you to "show us what you got" which in my opinion you have not done. So far, I have offered information on meroitic Egyptian and its resemblance to the characters on the Book of Mormon plates and some examples of Egyptian and Semitic words correctly used in the Book of Mormon (and unknown at the time it was written). When asked how this can be if it was cobbled together by semi-literate hicks in 1820s upstate New York, nobody has responded, other than RichTig, our resident atheist, who simply said that it was a hoax.I note that nobody wanted to answer my question, which is important before even considering archaeological evidence: If Book of Mormon peoples existed (if only for the sake of argument), what would physical evidence of their existence reasonably be expected to look like? I think the reason for the silence is that it's pretty clear to all that they would look like, well, the physical remains we currently have out of Central America. Critics' insistence that we somehow be able to distinguish between Nephite and Olmec or Maya or Zapotec potsherds is not realistic, any more than insistence that we be able to distinguish between Christian and non-Christian artifacts from the year 75 A.D. around Jerusalem and in Asia Minor. | | | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:1821


 | | 07/21/2008 4:31 PM |
Alert | | The word "Catholic" means "universal".....it isn't a Gospel.........the apostles were the original Catholics....... | | "Your village called.........they're missing their idiot" | |
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| | CyndiWitczak
Posts:207

 | | 07/21/2008 7:50 PM |
Alert | | I don't think we (Catholics) NEED a mediator. Priests are intelligent and well schooled and sometimes offer opinions and Church centered views on problems in our lives. Sometimes it is easy to go off track and an outside opinion is never bad... an outside opinion from a Priest is always a good thing. They have no vested interest in your problem and give you an answer that you may not have thought of in the heat of our day to day trials and tribulations. If they pray with us, or for us, it's not a bad thing. | | Yes, that's really my name | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:226

 | | 07/22/2008 7:25 AM |
Alert | | CyndiWitczak- I am sorry. I did not mean to offend. i went to Catholic school and am kinda basing my understanding on that experience. Yes, Godly opinions are always a good thing. I was just thinking that when my friend said that she needed her priest to bless her house, that she could do that herself and didn't need a priest to do it fo her. But, when Christians are stuck on issues, we often go to Pastors for similiar help. | | | |
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| | RichTig
Posts:0

 | | 07/22/2008 7:35 AM |
Alert | Posted By moinmoin on 07/21/2008 3:27 PM Moinmoin, you started this thread saying you have evidences. Many of us have basically asked you to "show us what you got" which in my opinion you have not done. So far, I have offered information on meroitic Egyptian and its resemblance to the characters on the Book of Mormon plates and some examples of Egyptian and Semitic words correctly used in the Book of Mormon (and unknown at the time it was written). When asked how this can be if it was cobbled together by semi-literate hicks in 1820s upstate New York, nobody has responded, other than RichTig, our resident atheist, who simply said that it was a hoax. I don't like the word Atheist. I prefer Realist. 
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| | JasonY
Posts:1821


 | | 07/22/2008 8:37 AM |
Alert | | You believe in God, you said so before.............just not into organized religion.........no biggie........ | | "Your village called.........they're missing their idiot" | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:377


 | | 07/24/2008 3:52 PM |
Alert | Time to get back on track Here are some more linguistic "bulls-eyes" in the Book of Mormon text: 1. The Egyptian god of wild places and wild animals was Month; they therefore referred to wilderness with ferocious animals as “Hermonthis” [see Hermann Grapow, "Hermonthis,” Encyclopaedie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft (Encycolpedia of Classical Antiquity Research) 8:901-902 and Herodotus, “History,” 2:46.] The Book of Mormon notes that a wilderness area "which was infested by wild and ravenous beasts” was called by the Nephites “Hermounts.” 

2. The Semitic form of “Month” was “Manti,” and occurs in Egyptian inscriptions and writings in various forms (e.g., Montu, Mendes, Menti) [Sidney Smith, “Cambridge Ancient History,” 3, 381; F. Bisson de la Roque, "Notes sur le dieu Montou” Bulletin de l'Institut Francais Archéologie Orientale (Notes on the God Montu ---Bulletin of the French Institute of Near Eastern Archaeology) 40 (1941), p. 49; William K. Simpson, "Reshep in Egypt,” Orientalia 29 (1960), pp. 63-74.] Interestingly, Egyptology scholars note the predominance of the name Ammon as a personal name in Egyptian documents, with Manti second and a heavy emphasis on names beginning with “Pa” or containing the elements “mor” and “hor” [William Flinders Petrie, “The Historical Value of Egyptian Names,” Ancient Egypt (1924), p. 79; Pierre Langlois, "Essai pour remonter à l'original égyptien du terme sémitique désignant l'égypte,” Revue Egyptologique 1 (1919)pp. 148, 162; Theodor Hopfner, "Graezisierte, griechisch-ägyptische, bzw., ägyptisch griechische und hybride theophore Personennamen” (Greek/Egyptian --- Egyptian/Greek and Hybrid Theophoric Personal Names), Archiv Orientální 15 (1946) pp. 22-27]. 3. Dr. Petrie (cited above) was one of the Egyptian scholars JasonY noted who blasted the “Book of Abraham,” yet he’s one of the primary sources on the frequency of “Manti,” “Pa,” “Mor,” and “Hor” elements in Egyptian inscriptions. Even a superficial, cursory glance at the list of names in the Book of Mormon shows the prominence of precisely these name elements in Book of Mormon personal and place names. Some of these even have direct counterparts in meroitic inscriptions that were unknown in Joseph Smith’s lifetime: ---a. Paankhi: popular 7th century name in Egyptian (Pa + ankh + i) Paanchi: chief judge in the Book of Mormon. ---b. Kherihor: Egyptian high priest of Ammon who seized the throne in 1085 B.C. (Alan Gardiner, “Egypt of the Pharaohs” [Oxford: Clarendon, 1961], p. 157) and ruler of Asiatic origin going back to the dawn of history (B. Hrozný, “Ancient History of Western Asia, India, and
Crete” [Prague: Artia, 1948], p. 111). Corihor: an important Jaredite name in the Book of Mormon Korihor: the name of a wicked Nephite anti-Christ agitator in the Book of Mormon. ---c. Zinapa: Cuneiform rendering of an Egyptian name [Elmar Edel, “Neue keilschriftliche Umschreibungen ägyptischer Namen aus den Bogazköytexten” (New Cuneiform Renderings of Egyptian Names from the Bogazköy Texts), Journal of Near Eastern Studies 7 (1948), p. 21.]
Zeniff: Book of Mormon historical figure
---d. Pachoras and Pakazi: Occur in a meroitic text (F. L
Griffith, “Pakhoras-Bakharas-Faras in Geography and History,” Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 11 (1925), p. 259.) Pahoran and Pachus: Occur in the Book of Mormon.
---e. Keb/Kib/Geb: Well-known historical Egyptian name [Kurt Sethe, "Der name des Gottes Keb,” Zeitschrift für Ägyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde (Journal of Egyptian Language and Ancient Records) 43 (1906)pp. 147-49.]
Gib: Book of Mormon name ---f. Aminap/Amanap/Aminathabi: Meroitic name form (F. L. Griffith, "Meroitic Studies IV,” Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 4 (1917): 161-69; and
George A. Reisner, "The Barkal Temples in 1916," Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 4 (1917): 216-17.] Aminidab: Book of Mormon name ---g. Teumman: An Egyptian in Babylonian inscriptions [Sidney
Smith, "An Egyptian in Babylonia,'' Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 18 (1932)p. 29.] Teomner: Book of Mormon name. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:377


 | | 07/24/2008 4:41 PM |
Alert | Hebrew names in the Book of Mormon Some Book of Mormon names (Jacob, Joseph, Noah, Ammon, etc.) are biblical names, which one would expect in a history of a people claiming strong spiritual and historical ties to Israel. Others are authentic Hebrew non-biblical names.
1. Alma: This was considered by critics to be a ridiculous slip by Joseph Smith until the 1940s. Everyone knows that “Alma” is a Latin female name! Alma occurs twice in the Dead Sea Scrolls as a male name (e.g., Alma ben Yehuda, Alma the son of Judah). They weren’t discovered until the 1940s, though . . .
2. Other names from the Dead Sea scrolls or apocryphal sources unknown in Joseph Smith’s time line up well with Book of Mormon names:
Gadjahu (Gidianhi) Lomni (Omni)
3. Examples of West Semitic names: Matianoi/Mittani (Middoni/Mathoni) Amminaadbi (Aminadab), Hezron (Ezrom) Ziph (ziff)
4. Egyptian names for the Red Sea.
Egyptians are noted for constantly “evolving new names for different seas” [Ernst Zyhlarz, "Die Namen des roten Meeres im Spätägyptischen,” Archiv für aegyptische Archaeologie (Names of the Red Sea in Late Egyptian, Archive for Egyptian Archaeology) (1938), 1:111-16.]
This practice lines up nicely with the behavior of Lehi’s party leaving Jerusalem. As previously noted, they record naming places along their journey: the valley of Laman, the river of Lemuel, etc. They also note burying Ishmael at the place “which was called Nahom.”In this case, though, "we beheld the sea, which we called Irreantum, which, being interpreted, is many waters" (1 Nephi 17:5). "Many waters" is at home as an Egyptian phrase(that’s what Fayyum means in Arabic), but what about "Irreantum"? It’s not Semitic, and even has to be interpreted by Lehi in his record. A late 1950s report reported that one of the more common Egyptian names for the Red Sea was “Iaru,” which is not Egyptian and whose meaning is unknown. [John R. Towers, "The Red Sea,'' Journal of Near Eastern Studies 18 (1959): 150-53.] "Antum" can be matched by two characteristic Egyptian forms, iny-t and 'anjt, both of which describe large bodies of water. So “Irreantum” is a perfectly plausible Egyptian-based word which the Book of Mormon defines as “many waters.”
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| | JAG
Posts:442


 | | 07/25/2008 2:51 AM |
Alert | Posted By itsadryheat on 07/22/2008 7:25 AM
CyndiWitczak- I am sorry. I did not mean to offend. i went to Catholic school and am kinda basing my understanding on that experience. Yes, Godly opinions are always a good thing. I was just thinking that when my friend said that she needed her priest to bless her house, that she could do that herself and didn't need a priest to do it fo her. But, when Christians are stuck on issues, we often go to Pastors for similiar help. Catholic school gave horrible teaching on the Church IMHO. I am a convert and am amazed on the lack of teaching with "cradle" Catholics. Maybe that is why I made such a good RED teacher? | | | |
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