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| | Author | Messages | |
Bionicbunny
Posts:594


 | | 06/22/2008 8:50 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 06/22/2008 10:24 AM Greetings Bunny, I am Catholic, and I have given fairly direct scripture that People of the Cloth should be celibate. All I am asking is why is it being ignored? Is Sola Scripture only importent on certain items? It is not being ignored by everyone but Catholics. Your interpretation is wrong. I was Catholic for 30 some years. One of the reasons I left for a Bible believing church was because of things like this. Strange interpretations, odd made up rules, etc. | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:594


 | | 06/22/2008 8:56 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 06/22/2008 10:24 AM Also just to clear up what Paul said, ICor 7:8-10 8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. It says if they cannot control themselves, believe it or not its quite possible to control yourself. I was celibate for 27 yrs till I met my wife, and I was not religous by anymeans, my conversion came later. I am positive that it would have been easier for someone who had a strong relationship with God.
I believe you that it is possible to control yourself. Thankfully you are not the only one who has been successful in this department however not everyone has found as much success at controling their urges. | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:594


 | | 06/22/2008 9:04 PM |
Alert | JAG, You do know that the Catholic bible is different from the rest don't you? | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:530


 | | 06/22/2008 9:23 PM |
Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 06/22/2008 9:04 PM
JAG,
You do know that the Catholic bible is different from the rest don't you? Yes, and do you know how long the Catholic bible has been around? If Protestants choice to ignore scripture then that's fine. But what does that do to the whole idea of Sola Scripture then? If God wanted His covenant with us to be Sola Scripture, then why the 1000's of drastically different protestant denominations? Why only make Sola Scripture as something that only pertains to modern Christianity, up till 4-5 centuries ago, people did not have Scriptures at their reach nor the ability to even read them. Look at some Appalachian Pentecostal spin off denominations that handle snakes, and do so with sound Biblical scripture. If you are supposed to listen to only the bible, then when is the last time you or another protestant picked up a rattlesnake? Some say they are testing God, but if you actually talk to a few of them(I have) you will find out they are testing themselves, not God. | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:530


 | | 06/22/2008 9:26 PM |
Alert | Posted By Bionicbunny on 06/22/2008 8:56 PM I believe you that it is possible to control yourself. Thankfully you are not the only one who has been successful in this department however not everyone has found as much success at controling their urges. So you want someone in the position of a spiritual leader to not have the ability to control themselves. | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:530


 | | 06/22/2008 9:55 PM |
Alert | Please see Matthew 19:12, what is meant by it? Who do you feel would renounce marriage for the Kingdom of heaven? For 1 Tim 3, I have to ask who you feel is the audience here, all of the books are meant for specific audiences. Otherwise how would you account for the 2 different genealogies from the Gospels? That said, what are your thoughts on 1 Tim 2:15? Does a woman really need to give childbirth to be saved? What if she wants to follow in the steps of Mat 19:12? Is she doomed? How does Rom 16:7 play into 1 Tim 2? Junia is a womans name I believe. What sacraments are needed for salvation in the Church. I will attach a copy of the Catechism for you to research. http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374


 | | 06/22/2008 10:05 PM |
Alert |
Thanks 
IV. THE SACRAMENTS OF SALVATION 1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify.48 They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power. 1128 This is the meaning of the Church's affirmation49 that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: "by the very fact of the action's being performed" ) , i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that "the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God."50 From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them. 1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior. Notice the lack of scripture. | | Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/ But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/ The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/ to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374


 | | 06/22/2008 10:24 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 06/22/2008 9:55 PM Please see Matthew 19:12, what is meant by it? Who do you feel would renounce marriage for the Kingdom of heaven? "who is able to accept this, let him accept it" Jesus in no way suggest that celibacy is superior to marriage. For 1 Tim 3, I have to ask who you feel is the audience here, all of the books are meant for specific audiences. It was for Timothy to deal with the problems that had arisen in the Ephesian church such as the need for qualified leaders. 1 Tim 3 is strictly talking about those who lead the church. You can try to avoid it by asking a bunch of detouring questions, but there is no way around it.  That said, what are your thoughts on 1 Tim 2:15? Does a woman really need to give childbirth to be saved? What if she wants to follow in the steps of Mat 19:12? Is she doomed? The greek work for "will be preserved" is not in reference to spirtual salvation, as one can see as it appears several times in the New Testament. It means "to rescue" or "to preserve safe and unharmed". Paul is teaching that even though a woman bears the stigma of being the initial instrument who led the race into sin, it is women through childbearing who may be preserved or freed from that stigma by raising a generation of godly children. How does Rom 16:7 play into 1 Tim 2? Junia is a womans name I believe. She wasn't in leadership of the church. Phoebe had a role and was a servant at the church not a Pastor. | | Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/ But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/ The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/ to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | Serpthia...
Posts:175

 | | 06/22/2008 10:40 PM |
Alert | "Jesus in no way suggest that celibacy is superior to marriage. " But it's suggested that it's spiritually advantageous to be celibate. Why is this even a debate? A man is not subjugated by the church's will before entering the priesthood. It's a voluntary act by a man that's fully cognizant of the requirements. Changing it won't stop pedophiles from entering the priesthood, nor will it stop other forms of immorality.
I can definitely understand the beneficial fruits of celibacy. | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:594


 | | 06/23/2008 8:02 AM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 06/22/2008 9:26 PM Posted By Bionicbunny on 06/22/2008 8:56 PM I believe you that it is possible to control yourself. Thankfully you are not the only one who has been successful in this department however not everyone has found as much success at controling their urges. So you want someone in the position of a spiritual leader to not have the ability to control themselves.
So you would rather have a spiritual leader who is distracted by thoughts of sex? | | | |
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| | Serpthia...
Posts:175

 | | 06/23/2008 9:14 AM |
Alert | Thankfully, marriage doesn't dimension or rid a man on having thoughts of sex; just like if a man is celibate he won't be consumed with lewd thoughts and foul deeds. And marriage would in no way dimension pedophilia. Do we need to discuss the number of married Pastors that have turned to fornicating? Their marriage solved what? | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:530


 | | 06/23/2008 11:35 AM |
Alert | The catchism you quoted only pretains to believers. Do you agree that Jesus set forth that we were to have a Church, and there would be people of that Church to run it, be pillars of truth. How could someone ingnore their leaders and still be Just? When Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on the apostles, what powers did He bestow on them? | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:530


 | | 06/23/2008 11:37 AM |
Alert | Posted By Serpthia... on 06/23/2008 9:14 AM Thankfully, marriage doesn't dimension or rid a man on having thoughts of sex; just like if a man is celibate he won't be consumed with lewd thoughts and foul deeds. And marriage would in no way dimension pedophilia. Do we need to discuss the number of married Pastors that have turned to fornicating? Their marriage solved what? Great points. The Porn industry is a multi Billion $ business, and I am willing to bet that a good 70-80% of the viewers are married. | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:530


 | | 06/23/2008 11:53 AM |
Alert | EEE, So why do you accuse me of tip toeing, when you do it yourself? Are you saying that Junia was not revered as one of the best apostles? Where did the name apostle change from teacher to simple servent? Also both the NIV and KJV specifically said the woman would be saved. There is no mention of "being preserved". I would go into 1 Tim 3:, but I am going into to many directions now as it is. So we can hold that one till later. | | | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:2589


 | | 06/23/2008 1:28 PM |
Alert | Better one wife, then a bunch of underage "promised" wives.......... | | "My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:594


 | | 06/23/2008 4:12 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 06/23/2008 11:37 AM Great points. The Porn industry is a multi Billion $ business, and I am willing to bet that a good 70-80% of the viewers are married.
How many of them are catholic priests and consider themselves married to the church or to God or to whoever they consider themselves married to?
You think it is wrong for a spiritual leader to take a wife but there are millions of protestants and catholics alike who disagree with what you think the scripture says. Bravo to you for being celebate until you got married, thats wonderful. Does that make you perfect? | | | |
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| | motoman
Posts:35


 | | 06/23/2008 4:47 PM |
Alert | Keep up the good work EEE. When I first started reading this, I thought somebody better bring up 1 Timothy 3. Sure enough you came through.  | | www.motoXriders.net | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374


 | | 06/23/2008 6:06 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 06/23/2008 11:35 AM The catchism you quoted only pretains to believers. The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.
So believers need to do something for salvation. What do the unbelievers need to do for salvation? That's my point, the Catholic Church believes you must add works for Salvation. That goes against the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is a slap in the face to a God who gives grace. Do you agree that Jesus set forth that we were to have a Church, and there would be people of that Church to run it, be pillars of truth. YesHow could someone ingnore their leaders and still be Just? And still be Just? Is this part of the Gospel Message? No. When Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on the apostles, what powers did He bestow on them? They were able to do miracles, speak in tongues(to speak the language of other people) all to prove to the people they are from God while they preached the Gospel. | | Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/ But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/ The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/ to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374


 | | 06/23/2008 6:20 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 06/23/2008 11:53 AM Are you saying that Junia was not revered as one of the best apostles? Where did the name apostle change from teacher to simple servent? Where does it say Junia was an Apostle? It says she is well known to the Apostles, but it doesn't call her one. Also both the NIV and KJV specifically said the woman would be saved. There is no mention of "being preserved". Look at the parallel translations. http://biblecc.com/1_timothy/2-15.htm That's why I mentioned the greek definition. If you read the verses before that one verse, you will be able to get it in context. It's easy to read into the text if you pick one verse out of the bunch. Does the Catholic church teach, women should have kids for Salvation? | | Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/ But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/ The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/ to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | JAG
Posts:530


 | | 06/23/2008 7:20 PM |
Alert | So believers need to do something for salvation. What do the unbelievers need to do for salvation? Their conscience is judged against Natural Law, much as Catholics are. They were able to do miracles, speak in tongues(to speak the language of other people) all to prove to the people they are from God while they preached the Gospel. So the whole thing of forgiveness and keeping things on earth or not is hogwash? Do the apostles have the right to forgive or not forgive sins? | | | |
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