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| | Author | Messages | |
JAG
Posts:532


 | | 06/12/2008 5:46 PM |
Alert | St Paul is speaking that we should strive to be celibate, and certainly does hint that those who want to do work of God are better off without marrying. Orthodox and Catholics rites take this literally and it varies on which rites allow marriage in the priesthood, although all of the rites religious orders ask for a oath of celibacy, and the authority must be celibate as well. Why is this not seen in protestantism? Growing up pseudo-Wesleyan, I have seen the damage of pastors being married and rift that it creates with family and parish. But I have also seen the opposite as well within my own family. | | | |
| | EEE
Posts:374


 | | 06/12/2008 6:55 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 06/12/2008 5:46 PM St Paul is speaking that we should strive to be celibate, and certainly does hint that those who want to do work of God are better off without marrying. Orthodox and Catholics rites take this literally and it varies on which rites allow marriage in the priesthood, although all of the rites religious orders ask for a oath of celibacy, and the authority must be celibate as well. Why is this not seen in protestantism? Growing up pseudo-Wesleyan, I have seen the damage of pastors being married and rift that it creates with family and parish. But I have also seen the opposite as well within my own family.
Because it's not a command.
1Co 7:6 But this I say by way of concession, not of command. Plus if you look at some of Paul's other letters, he tells those who are leaders of the church to be a one woman man. So there is clearly nothing wrong with it. Plus wives have played a major part in ministry. It's funny how you've mentioned that you've seen problems with Pastors being married, when it's the unmarried Priest making the news if you know what I mean. | | Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/ But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/ The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/ to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | JAG
Posts:532


 | | 06/12/2008 7:47 PM |
Alert | Its not a command, but it is a sugestion, and one that he pushs as being a serios one. So why do not ministers take it as a serios one? Why is ok to Cherish certain scripture, but totally ignore others. As for the news, its the media, they take what they think will sell. Have you ever done any investigation into the matter, or just listen to the news? | | | |
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| | hastings1066
Posts:893


 | | 06/12/2008 8:20 PM |
Alert | My understanding is that Luther viewed Paul's statement as a suggestion or opinion, not a commandment. He disavowed celibacy on the basis of Gen. 1:28 and Matthew 19:12. If we think about it logically, Luther's idea of the priesthood of all believers, would mean that celibacy of the priesthood would have the inevitable result that the human race would come to an end (if we were all Lutherans). So in his view, celibacy of priests would involving disobeying a commandment of God (Gen. 1:28). As my training was in history, not Scriptures, those of you with more knowledge of the Bible please chip in. The first paragraph above is factual but the second is opinion (based on logic?). | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:532


 | | 06/12/2008 11:55 PM |
Alert | But why would a suggestion or opinion be taken so lightly from one of the more influential persons of Christendom? Your Matthew reference is actually arguing more for a celibate authority, Plus a man without a family could be more fruitful in his time and preaching of the Gospel and could multiply the Body of Christ more. | | | |
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| | DaybyDay
Posts:288

 | | 06/13/2008 6:18 AM |
Alert | | Doesn't the Bible also say that if you cannot handle celibacy...then you should be married, rather than "burn"- if you know what I mean? Celibacy is not for everyone. Just look at the media. They are even saying our children can't practice celibacy either, because the temptation is too great towards sex (I am not saying this is true...but this is what is being presented out there). So, if according to the going though, teenagers cannot handle celibacy and will be compelled to have sex...then why expect a grown man to be able to do it too? I think certain people are called to celibacy, while most are not. And again, EEE is right. The bible does talk about being the man of one wife etc... | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:532


 | | 06/13/2008 10:47 AM |
Alert | I was celibate for 27yrs, and was not of any religious reasoning for it, in fact I was a agnostic for much of my young adult life. People are much more resilient then you think, and you would think that a Man of God would be more resilient actually. Sorry I am not seeing any sound scripture to ignore a strong suggestion from major player in the core of the Faith. | | | |
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| | hastings1066
Posts:893


 | | 06/13/2008 11:00 AM |
Alert | JAG - I must admit that Luther's use of Mat 19:12 to oppose celibacy confused me. I did not take the time to research his thinking on that passage. Perhaps those with a better grounding on the Scriptures can fill in the blanks as to his interpretation. Dealing with your other points: First, Gen 1:28 is a commandment from God that celibacy disobeys. So, on a scale, with Paul's suggestion on one side , and God's commandment on the other, which has more weight? Second, would not a married priest have certain advantages over a celibate one? Less sexual frustration and temptation comes to mind. Also, would not a married priest have a better understanding of the trials and tribulations of marriage, and thus be better able to give council. I concede that a celibate priest would have more time to devote to his flock, but would he be more effective? NOTE - I use the term priest as a generic term for religious leader . | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:532


 | | 06/13/2008 11:47 AM |
Alert | So if someone is born sterile, or is not able to have children, are they in everlasting sin? Again I can take Gen 1:28 as for any form of being fruitful, spreading the word of God is being just as fruitful as having children. I do not see it as a commandment in such a way that you are trying to portray it. As for marriage counselor, that's what the congregation is for actually. When we went through marriage prep at the Church, we only saw the priest once or twice, and then it was only going over the theology of marriage and the technicalities of marriage in the eyes of the Church, the rest of the time it was with various congregation who are in fact married. If you were haveing marriage problems, you saw a preist and he oversaw your case as it went through varios couples as they helped you. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378


 | | 06/17/2008 1:51 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 06/13/2008 11:47 AM So if someone is born sterile, or is not able to have children, are they in everlasting sin? No, see Matthew 19:1-15: Now when Jesus finished these sayings, he left Galilee and went to the region of Judea beyond the Jordan River. Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
Then some Pharisees came to him in order to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful to divorce a wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” They said to him, “Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?” Jesus said to them, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hard hearts, but from the beginning it was not this way. Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery.” The disciples said to him, “If this is the case of a husband with a wife, it is better not to marry!” He said to them, “Not everyone can accept this statement, except those to whom it has been given. For there are some eunuchs who were that way from birth, and some who were made eunuchs by others, and some who became eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who is able to accept this should accept it.” | | Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | JAG
Posts:532


 | | 06/18/2008 6:51 PM |
Alert | Greetings Jason, That scripture is more proof that a person of the cloth should be celibate actually. | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378


 | | 06/18/2008 8:55 PM |
Alert | | You asked how if someone is born sterile or not able to have children and the bolded part directly answers that. I'm confused about what's not clear to you...? | | Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | JAG
Posts:532


 | | 06/18/2008 10:32 PM |
Alert | I was referring to Hastings reference to Gen. 1:28 that its a commandment that we are to multiple. 1st its not a commandment, its part of the old covenant, and people are born sterile. So I do not see it as relevant to the question at hand myself. | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374


 | | 06/19/2008 6:21 PM |
Alert | I don't know what JAG is trying to prove. The Roman Catholics are the ones who need to explain why they made something Required for the Priest, when the Bible doesn't require it. Sounds like more Legalism from the Roman Catholic church. Sola Scriptura!  | | Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/ But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/ The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/ to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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| | Cactus Rob
Posts:1054


 | | 06/19/2008 8:24 PM |
Alert | I'm not Catholic, but I know from articles I've read that for over 1200 years, the Roman Catholic Church didn't require priests to be celebate and that many were married and fathered children. I don't recall ever reading why the change was made. | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:532


 | | 06/19/2008 10:26 PM |
Alert | EEE, Its not a requirement, its a oath. There are married preists with children in the Church, especially in the non-Latin rites. I am trying to figure out why protostents decide to ignore scriptures when its to there liking. There is solid scripture stating that people who want to take up the cloth should attempt to be celibate. But you bring up another point that I will bring up in another thread. | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:532


 | | 06/19/2008 10:30 PM |
Alert | Cactus, The book is still out on why priests are asked for a oath of celibacy. Some historians point to the fact that Church was attempting to save property instead of it going to the children, others point to the historical and scripture backing. Today its seen more of a ability for a priest to give more of his time to the congregation. Although in the orthodox churches and non-Latin its very common to have a married pastor, only religious orders(monks) are celibate and only they are elected to bishop or patriarch. | | | |
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| | Bionicbunny
Posts:599


 | | 06/22/2008 7:34 AM |
Alert | JAG,
Protestants aren't ignoring scripture, what we are talking about was Pauls opinion, his advice, not a command from God. It would be better if missionaries and Priests were not married so they would have nothing to tie them down and they would be free to do what they needed to do for God but, like Day by Day said, Paul also says that it would be better to marry then burn. You may want to talk to a Catholic priest about why their church does not allow them to marry. It may have more to do with their own rules and beliefs and less to do with their interpretation of the Word. | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:532


 | | 06/22/2008 10:24 AM |
Alert | Greetings Bunny, I am Catholic, and I have given fairly direct scripture that People of the Cloth should be celibate. All I am asking is why is it being ignored? Is Sola Scripture only importent on certain items? Also just to clear up what Paul said, ICor 7:8-10 8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. It says if they cannot control themselves, believe it or not its quite possible to control yourself. I was celibate for 27 yrs till I met my wife, and I was not religous by anymeans, my conversion came later. I am positive that it would have been easier for someone who had a strong relationship with God. | | | |
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| | EEE
Posts:374


 | | 06/22/2008 8:17 PM |
Alert | Posted By JAG on 06/22/2008 10:24 AM Greetings Bunny, I am Catholic, and I have given fairly direct scripture that People of the Cloth should be celibate. All I am asking is why is it being ignored? Is Sola Scripture only importent on certain items? You have not posted direct scripture that "People of the Cloth should be celibate". You are seriously making an error of reading into the text. Where in that chapter is he even addressing a Preacher/ Priest? He is even making a comment toward widows(which are women), and the bible is clear they are not to be in the position as the overseer of the church.
Here is scripture directed to the overseer of the church:
1 Timothy 3: 1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) Hopefully this will help you see a legalistic teaching from the Catholic church. This is one of many legalistic traditions and you should leave immediately. The teaching that you must do sacrements to receive the Grace from Christ is the dangerous one, and this is the main problem I have with the Catholic church. | | Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/ But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/ The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/ to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/ | |
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