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Subject: Religion and Science
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hastings1066User is Offline

Posts:881


05/30/2008 4:32 PM Alert 

The following is offered as an interesting area of speculation and discussion. As scientific knowledge rapidly expands, what effect does this have on traditional religious beliefs? I see three possible points of view: convergence, divergence, and neutrality. I do believe however, that the neutrality position would be a cop out. opinions?

moinmoinUser is Offline

Posts:413


05/30/2008 9:14 PM Alert 
Not only a cop-out, but really non-existent, in my opinion. I think people tend to either divergence or convergence to differing degrees, however slightly it may be either way. I don't think anybody is truly "neutral" when it comes to the balance between religion and science.

Nor do I think that the two are mutually exclusive, either. No need to throw any babies out with the bathwater. Very interesting question. I'm not sure where I fit on that continuum, and you've given me something to ponder!
EEEUser is Offline

Posts:374


05/31/2008 10:56 AM Alert 
Posted By hastings1066 on 05/30/2008 4:32 PM

The following is offered as an interesting area of speculation and discussion. As scientific knowledge rapidly expands, what effect does this have on traditional religious beliefs? I see three possible points of view: convergence, divergence, and neutrality. I do believe however, that the neutrality position would be a cop out. opinions?

 

What do you have in mind specifically when you say traditional religious beliefs?


Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/
ChimneyDuckUser is Offline

Posts:230

05/31/2008 4:08 PM Alert 
Conservative religion has been opposed to science ever since real science started in the renaissance. I really don't see that changing.

Advancements in science, however have been absorbed into the mainstream, and it really hasn't impacted religion much at all. At least in the west, anyway.

People either believe in one, and not the other, or they believe in both. It's all how the basis of their life philosophy is built.

The way I see it, people order their lives on their religious beliefs. This is the foundation on their whole life philosophy. In order to make any change at all to a religious belief, you have to change everything that is piled on top of it as well. That is why it is so difficult for any debate on religion to change anyone's mind. There is just too much stuff piled on top to actually budge the foundation. People will go to great lengths to justify their life philosophy position even when it defies logic. There is no way a little bit of science is going to change anyones mind. (Or web forum debates, though it seems like we all try. . . )

Take biology for instance. Biologists know so much about evolution that to deny it happes is utterly rediculous. However, creationists have built their world view on a literal reading of the bible: Adam, eve, flood, 4004 BC creation date. To change any of that would totally rip their world view apart, hence they would have to change everything in their lives. It's just not likely it is going to happen.

http://www.maricopabikeclub.com - Join us for a bicycle ride.
hastings1066User is Offline

Posts:881


05/31/2008 8:33 PM Alert 
Posted By EEE on 05/31/2008 10:56 AM
Posted By hastings1066 on 05/30/2008 4:32 PM

The following is offered as an interesting area of speculation and discussion. As scientific knowledge rapidly expands, what effect does this have on traditional religious beliefs? I see three possible points of view: convergence, divergence, and neutrality. I do believe however, that the neutrality position would be a cop out. opinions?

 

What do you have in mind specifically when you say traditional religious beliefs?

Existence of God, divine creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the flood, the resurrection, a divinely inspired Bible, and all of the other things that most Christians believe in common. I am sure that those of you who are much more well versed in the Bible than I (and from reading this thread I know that there are a number of you), can add to the list. Most on this thread are interested in religion in one way or another. It would be interesting to discuss whether scientific advances reinforce your faith, or for others, discuss whether scientific advances reinforce your lack of faith. Or do those advances make no difference in your views on religion?

demonicaUser is Offline

Posts:850


05/31/2008 9:39 PM Alert 

i have faith in chimneyduck.

EEEUser is Offline

Posts:374


05/31/2008 9:53 PM Alert 

Oh ok, thanks for explaining.

Science has only strengthed my faith. 

 


Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/
ChimneyDuckUser is Offline

Posts:230

06/02/2008 8:37 AM Alert 

Coincidentally, I've started reading a history book about the discovery of Aristotle's writings in the west, and it's effect on the science, politics, and religion on Medieval Europe. It seems pretty good, though I'm only a chapter or two in. The Roman Catholic church at the time took the decision to embrace the "new" ideas found in the Muslim libraries about the classical greek philosophies.

It's entitled "Aristotle's Children" by Richard E. Rubenstein.


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hastings1066User is Offline

Posts:881


06/02/2008 3:17 PM Alert 
Posted By ChimneyDuck on 06/02/2008 8:37 AM

Coincidentally, I've started reading a history book about the discovery of Aristotle's writings in the west, and it's effect on the science, politics, and religion on Medieval Europe. It seems pretty good, though I'm only a chapter or two in. The Roman Catholic church at the time took the decision to embrace the "new" ideas found in the Muslim libraries about the classical Greek philosophies.

It's entitled "Aristotle's Children" by Richard E. Rubenstein.

 

Interestingly, the fact that the Church "embraced' the Greeks led to problems between The Church and science down the road. A good example was in cosmology. The Aristotelian/Ptolemaic idea that the earth was the center of the universe ,and that all of the stars and planets revolved around it, fit in perfectly with the Churche's view (supported by its interpretation of the bible) of the earth as the center of creation. So much so that when the Copernican (heliocentric) theory was advanced, it was considered heretical. The idea that the earth was just one minor cog in the machinery of the solar system was simply unacceptable.
NAHS79User is Offline

Posts:15

06/03/2008 3:55 AM Alert 
I just love topics about Science and religion. The most spriited debate would be at a round table discussion with a physist and person of god. Personnally, I grew up in a christian house. However, as I grew up and became more educated I started leaning towards science. If there is a physist in maricopa who reads this thread I would love to hear from you.
EEEUser is Offline

Posts:374


06/03/2008 7:12 PM Alert 

Are scientific results absolute truth for you guys?  For example, dating methods.


Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/
ChimneyDuckUser is Offline

Posts:230

06/03/2008 8:01 PM Alert 
No, I wouldn't consider scientific data such as results from dating as absolute truth. It's what it is a data point. You take that data point, along with a bunch of other data points, into consideration, make a model of what you think that means. That model should allow you to make predictions of data points outside of the the data that you have already gathered. If those predicted data points support what you have, then you have a theory. However, if you get data that doesn't support the theory, the theory probably needs to be modified, or abandoned.




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hastings1066User is Offline

Posts:881


06/04/2008 8:26 PM Alert 

I agree with ChimneyDuck. In my course work on archeology and prehistory, no one ever claimed that the methods used for dating objects (stratigraphy and carbon dating for example) was absolutely accurate. They are approximations that give a range of time, not a specific date. To answer your question: within the above parameters, having never seen evidence to the contrary,I do believe that the dating methods are relatively accurate.

8DaysDazedUser is Offline

Posts:86

06/05/2008 8:22 AM Alert 
Posted By hastings1066 on 06/04/2008 8:26 PM

I agree with ChimneyDuck. In my course work on archeology and prehistory, no one ever claimed that the methods used for dating objects (stratigraphy and carbon dating for example) was absolutely accurate. They are approximations that give a range of time, not a specific date. To answer your question: within the above parameters, having never seen evidence to the contrary,I do believe that the dating methods are relatively accurate.

Cue EEE and her Mt Saint Helens carbon dating example.

5,4,3,2,1...........

EEEUser is Offline

Posts:374


06/05/2008 1:53 PM Alert 
Posted By 8DaysDazed on 06/05/2008 8:22 AM
Posted By hastings1066 on 06/04/2008 8:26 PM

I agree with ChimneyDuck. In my course work on archeology and prehistory, no one ever claimed that the methods used for dating objects (stratigraphy and carbon dating for example) was absolutely accurate. They are approximations that give a range of time, not a specific date. To answer your question: within the above parameters, having never seen evidence to the contrary,I do believe that the dating methods are relatively accurate.

Cue EEE and her Mt Saint Helens carbon dating example.

5,4,3,2,1...........



I'm glad I taught you something and it sticked

Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/
EEEUser is Offline

Posts:374


06/05/2008 2:01 PM Alert 
Posted By hastings1066 on 06/04/2008 8:26 PM

 having never seen evidence to the contrary,I do believe that the dating methods are relatively accurate.

 

 

These have been the scientific assumptions scientist make when dating rocks.  This is a big problem.

  1. The initial conditions of the rock sample are accurately known.
  2. The amount of parent or daughter elements in a sample has not been altered by processes other than radioactive decay.
  3. The decay rate (or half-life) of the parent isotope has remained constant since the rock was formed.


Here is an excerpt of examples where dating methods are not reliable

We know that radioisotope dating does not always work because we can test it on rocks of known age. In 1997, a team of eight research scientists known as the RATE group (Radioisotopes and the Age of The Earth) set out to investigate the assumptions commonly made in standard radioisotope dating practices (also referred to as single-sample radioisotope dating). Their findings were significant and directly impact the evolutionary dates of millions of years.

Steve Austin, PhD geology, and member of the RATE team, had a rock from the newly formed 1986 lava dome from Mount St. Helens dated. Using Potassium-Argon dating, the newly formed rocks gave ages between 0.5 and 2.8 million years.3 These dates show that significant argon (daughter element) was present when the rock solidified (assumption 1 is false).

Mount Ngauruhoe is located on the North Island of New Zealand and is one of the country’s most active volcanoes. Eleven samples were taken from solidified lava and dated. These rocks are known to have formed from eruptions in 1949, 1954, and 1975. The rock samples were sent to a respected commercial laboratory (Geochron Laboratories in Cambridge, Massachusetts). The “ages” of the rocks ranged from 0.27 to 3.5 million years old.4 Because these rocks are known to be less than 70 years old, it is apparent that assumption #1 is again false. When radioisotope dating fails to give accurate dates on rocks of known age, why should we trust it for rocks of unknown age? In each case the ages of the rocks were greatly inflated.

Here is the link to the article for both quotes:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-radiometric-dating-prove


Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/
ChimneyDuckUser is Offline

Posts:230

06/05/2008 2:53 PM Alert 
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD013.html

Potassium-Argon has a known issue with excess argon. You have to be careful with your sample. Listed in the link is ways to discover and recover from the error.

At the bottom of your link it mentions that the age of the earth is 6000+/- 2000 years. I'm wondering if you are advocating that. I wonder how one reconciles that with the tree ring record that we have go back 12000 years?

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EEEUser is Offline

Posts:374


06/05/2008 3:17 PM Alert 

Posted By ChimneyDuck on 06/05/2008 2:53 PM
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD013.html

Potassium-Argon has a known issue with excess argon. You have to be careful with your sample. Listed in the link is ways to discover and recover from the error.

There is still a problem with the 3 assumptions, even if he doesn't want to take those into consideration for other samples.  What kind of scientist would not take all variables into consideration?



At the bottom of your link it mentions that the age of the earth is 6000+/- 2000 years. I'm wondering if you are advocating that. I wonder how one reconciles that with the tree ring record that we have go back 12000 years?

Without question I believe the Universe and earth is no older than 10,000 years.  You have to understand the Flood was an earth changing event.  The earth was under water for about a year.  Water came from the earth opening up as well as from the firmaments.  When the firmaments opened up, we lost that protection from the son.  That is why Adam and others were able to live 900+ years, and after the flood the length of life declined.

That is why those 3 assumptions are important.  The flood skewed the data they are sampling.

As for the tree rings:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/docs/tree_ring.asp

 


Yeah, it's true- He allowed the fall of man/
But He used it now to exalt the Lamb/
The Lord, who's wise, permits existence of sin/
to be glorified in His forgiveness to men/
JasonYUser is Offline

Posts:2589


06/05/2008 4:02 PM Alert 
The Earth is millions of years old, and still God made it. Maybe seven days to God is like 70 million years to humans.....

"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black
ChimneyDuckUser is Offline

Posts:230

06/05/2008 9:45 PM Alert 
I present EEE as an example of my initial statement.

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