Qwerty said: Brigham Young's comment does not automatically imply that sex was involved.

So what is Young's point? Why even make a provacative statement like the one he made if he believed in a virgin birth and taught it? Because he probably didn't believe it and needed an natural explantion for a supernatural occurence. If its a non issue, why did he make it one? If plural wives was a non-issue and did not lead to exhultation (as what was believed at the time) then why alter statements made to reflect the need for it?

In vitro vertilization has no relevance in this discussion. Its a diversion. Just like talking about sex is a diversion. Chromosomes is a diversion...

I don't know that we are talking about the same things... which could make it difficult for someone reading this thread. I think it was mentioned that Jesus Christ is the the church name of the LDS, yet we are talking about two different people. As we are talking about two different Gods. Two different Holy Spirits. Two different plans of salvation. I think EEE made a great argument to these issues in the LDS church thread. Until we can come to an agreement on these core, foundational issues, then I am not sure about what will come of this argument. My prayer is that people reading it will see the truth and will investigate it and will know that the Bible offers the only plan of salvation. If that makes me narrow minded, then so be it. The Bible says (using the King James Version of which LDS use):

King James Version (KJV)
Matthew 7:13

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

a modern DNA paternity test wouldn't show Him to have been Joseph's son.

Your point? To get me to agree that paternally Joseph was not Jesus' father. OK. Paternally Joseph was not Jesus' father. The Bible says that he wasn't. I have no argument with that.

 Brigham Youngs words/teachings on this subject, a teaching that God the Father came down to earth and had "relations" with the Virgin Mary:

"The only men who become gods, even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy...how if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned," Brigham Young, Journal of Discources (11:269)

"This doctine of plural marriage is one of the most important doctrines ever revealed to a man in any age of the world...without it we never could be exalted to associate with andn become gods." Joseph F. Smith, Journal of Discources (21:9)

"And if he [Joseph Smith] have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.... for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified." D&C Verses 62-63

"For behold, I reveal to you a new and everlasting covenant, and if you abide not that covenant, then are you damned." Joseph Smith, Doctrine and Covenants, 132:4

Please note that the following comments are not meant to “convince” you that Polygamy was correct. Only to show that the accusation of LDS critics that the LDS believe you must practice Polygamy to be exalted is not accurate.

The comments made from the LDS prophets concerning Polygamy as it relates to exaltation have everything to do with obedience to the commandments of God. If we are not obedient to God’s commandments, we will not be exalted. Thus, if God commands some to practice polygamy and they do not follow his commandments (i.e. disobedient) they will not be exalted. Alternatively, if God commands to NOT practice Polygamy and some do then they will likewise not be exalted. The LDS Prophets were emphasizing that one must be obedient to God’s commandments, which at the time included Polygamy for some, when commanded by God or they will not be exalted. We as current LDS members also have to believe that polygamy was a true commandment from God or we are essentially showing disbelief in God's commandments. Similar to if we think the Law of Moses was totally unnecessary but still claim to believe in God's commandments. We may not be required to follow certain commandments (i.e., Law of Moses, polygamy) but we still need to believe that they were true commandments from God.

I’m not sure I’m explaining this all that clearly as it’s a little difficult to articulate, but I did find another site where someone probably explained it a little better:

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/plural_marriage/necessary.htm

Do you believe that we have spirits, souls

yes.
Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
1 Peter 2:25
For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

on talking about spirits, the Bible refers to different spirits. Obviously there is the Holy Spirit, there are "evil spirits", there are spirits that are said to minister to you. But the Bible also says, "1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."



2. What is your understanding of the Bible's definition of when life begins? Is it conception?

Yes at conception.
Psalms 139:13-18
For it was You who created my inward parts; [a]
You knit me together in my mother's womb. (A)

14 I will praise You,
because I have been remarkably and wonderfully made. [c]
Your works are wonderful,
and I know [this] very well. (B)

15 My bones were not hidden from You
when I was made in secret,
when I was formed in the depths of the earth. (C)

16 Your eyes saw me when I was formless;
all [my] days were written in Your book and planned
before a single one of them began. (D)

17 God, how difficult [d] Your thoughts are
for me [to comprehend]
how vast their sum is!

18 If I counted them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand; (E)
when I wake up, [e] I am still with You.

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you..."

The Bible is not clear on this. What it is clear on not putting too much stock or thought into spirits, angels, the dead etc...these are not what we are to focus our minds on.

Colossians 3:2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

To me, worrying and thinking about when a spirit gets into a body, or how it gets there...this is something of the earth that I don't need to be focusing on. The Lords knows these things.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Definition:

1. believer in Jesus Christ as savior: somebody whose religion is Christianity


adjective

Definition:

1. christianity from teachings of Jesus Christ: based on or relating to a belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Messiah, and acceptance of his teachings, contained in the Gospels


acceptance of his teachings, contained in the Gospels

The Bible teaches the Trinity, this fact is inrefutable. Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians and based on this defnition, neither are Mormons.

You don't think the Bible teaches the Trinity? If not the Trinity, then what?

I think you need to do some reading on JW's before you claim them to be Christians and you might also want to do some digging into Mormonism.  it doesn't suprise me that you might think they [along with LDS] are Christians.

Here is some info on JW's you might want to read up on:

• JWs claim the Bible as their final authority, but Russell's writings, especially Studies in the Scriptures, are considered "the light of the Scriptures." JWs have their own translation of the Scriptures which greatly perverts the Scriptures to avoid placing themselves under the judgment of God  The Watchtower magazine is one of the JWs main sources of doctrine, and is considered authoritative by its members.

• JWs believe that God is not a triune God, but only "Jehovah God"
• Since JWs do not believe in the Trinity, they also do not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh
• JWs deny the bodily resurrection of Christ through their teaching that the body of Christ was annihilated by God -- not risen -- but rather a new one was created three days after His death.
• JWs deny the deity of the third person of the Trinity, as either God or as a person; they claim that the Holy Spirit is only an impersonal "active force of Almighty God which moves His servants to do His will"
• JWs claim everlasting life is a reward for doing the will of God and carrying out one's dedication -- in other words, salvation is a reward for good works

Do I need to go on? Just because a church has the name Jesus Christ or Jehovah in it, does not mean that it is a Christian church.  There are very clear distinctives that differentiate Christian churchs from non-Christian ones.  The Bible talks about this as well.

The early Christian church was as diverse in its beliefs as it was in its membership. Prior to the Council of Nicea in 325 there were two opposing views of the nature of God and Christ. The Trinitarians believed there were three persons in one God. They were opposed by the Monarchianists who believed in one indivisible God. After a debate, when the vote was taken , of the several hundred church leaders present, very few (3? - not sure of exact number) refused to go with the majority Trinitarian position. The resulting Nicene Creed established the basic doctrine of the Church, including the idea of the Trinity.  If the vote had gone the other way, the Trinity would be out.

To preserve unity in the church, which had been made the official religion of the empire, the Emperor Constantine exiled the leading Monarchianists, Bishop Arius. Monarchianists ideas however, did not die out. The heresy (as it was then considered to be), continued under the name of Arianism. When the German barbarians invaded the Empire in the 5th Century, they were not pagans, they were Arian Christians. Under constant church pressure the idea all but died out by the 8th Century. Thus, as you can see, many early Christians did not believe in the Trinity.