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| | Author | Messages | |
JAG
Posts:455
 | | 06/12/2008 11:45 PM |
 Alert | Most mormons I know are very hardworking, and they tend to have large families. This would mean to me that they take the punishement of A&E quite serios, so do alot of faiths though, just seems more prevelant in the LDS community anymore. | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:228
| | 06/13/2008 6:33 AM |
Alert | The doctrine on Adam and Eve and their innocence was posted courtesy EEE (thanks!) It is not a Bible reference. HOWEVER, if you are willing to accept a different interpretation of the Bible (which does not give information one way or another, and MS Christians have made assumptions based on the only information they accept), then you will see there is not contradiction. If you do not allow for this possibility, that MS assumptions are just that – assumptions, then you will always think of it as contradictory However, no where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve were NOT innocent, like children. . .
What? I am totally missing your train of thought. Maybe its too early. Why does whether Adam and Eve were innocent (like children) have to be discussed in this matter. I don't accept a different interpretation of the Bible, then I don't accept this assumption. Christians base their thoughts on the BIBLE. If we don't understand something...we keep looking in the Bible. Since God does not contradict himself, the answer will be found. The problem that I have with bringing in these other "testiments", is that they directly contradict even what God says about himself. Since God is not one of confusion, then He wouldn't confuse. When there are questions abour Scripture, you go back to Scripture. I've said it before, I will say it again. Biblical scriputre supports Biblical scripture. What doesn't "give information one way or another"? That direclty contradicts what has been touted all along by you and others...the the mormon books are fuller testimonies, with additional information and insights. Take that verse about Adam and Eve that EEE used. That is NOT in the Bible. Yet, some of it can be found there (because as I said earlier LDS mimics Christianity) but then there are additional tidbits added. I guess to make the account "fuller."
OK. As you can see, The Book of Mormon, gives us that information.
But only if you believe in the Book of Mormon...which I don't. The book of mormon does not give me any information, other than contradictory. Should I say it again? We use the Bible to support the Bible. Not other books.
“This suggested contrast between a sin and a transgression reminds us of the careful wording in the second article of faith: “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression” (italics added). It also echoes a familiar distinction in the law. Some acts, like murder, are crimes because they are inherently wrong. Other acts, like operating without a license, are crimes only because they are legally prohibited. Under these distinctions, the act that produced the Fall was not a sin—inherently wrong—but a transgression—wrong because it was formally prohibited. These words are not always used to denote something different, but this distinction seems meaningful in the circumstances of the Fall” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 98; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 73).
Yes, and individual will have to give an account of his/her own life. Christians believe in original sin...which started with Adam. We all have it when we are born. The act that produced the fall was a sin. Which was why they had to leave the Garden of Eden. God told them not to do it. They knew they weren't supposed to and they did it anyway. If that's not a sin, then I don't know what is. If it was just a transgression, there may have been a lighter sentence or a different sentence. Having to leave the Garden and go into the world was harsh for them. That was punishment. They sinned. This is why (what?) I keep saying it again and again... you have to use Biblical scripture to support Biblical scripture. Otherwise, you get watered down statements like this one.
Christ accepted to be our Savior in the spirit world, and we all knew the plan before Adam and Eve received their bodies. We chose to participate. When we came to earth, a spiritual veil hid heaven from our memory (I know this was discussed, so I will not venture farther. . .)
Again? What?? Where in scripture is this statement supported? I have never read anything remotely close to this in the Bible.
Eve was beguiled by the serpent, and that she partook of the fruit because she was tricked. Why do you believe Adam partook of the fruit?
Because sin does not always look ugly to us. Eve took the fruit because she thought it would make her more like God. Sometimes sin occurs because we think about things we do not have, rather than on the blessings we do have. She was tempted to give into a life that was easy (the wide road) rather than the life that God would have us lead (the narrow road; that even a camel cannot get through the eye [paraphrase]). Being tempted is not a sin. Giving in to the temptation is the problem. He tempted her with 1) lust of the eyes (the fruit looked good- it was pleasant). (v.6) 2) he tempted her with the pride of life (v.6 and a tree deisreable to make one wise) and 3) lust of the flesh (v.6 so when the owman saw that the tree was good for food). Most people don't knowlingly walk into a sinful situation or especially one that LOOKS sinful. We chose them because we have been convinced they have been good. Pleasant sins can be hard to avoid. | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:476
| | 06/13/2008 7:49 AM |
Alert | Most mormons I know are very hardworking, and they tend to have large families. This would mean to me that they take the punishement of A&E quite serios, so do alot of faiths though, just seems more prevelant in the LDS community anymore.
I assume that you are talking about the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. We do take this commandment seriously, and I suppose it was part of the 'curse', but we don't look at it as something we are cursed to do because of Adam and Eve. It is more like we believe it is something we CAN do because of Adam and Eve.
W/o Adam and Eve eating the fruit, they could not have followed the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. We believe (although it is not found in the Bible) that Adam partook the fruit when Eve gave it to him because he understood in order to follow the greater commandment, he had to eat the fruit. Eve was going to be cast out. He ate the fruit in wisdom. | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:476
| | 06/13/2008 8:46 AM |
Alert | Itasdryheat, How do we lose our innocence? I believe Adam and Eve lost their innocence when they felt the sorrows and grief from not following the law. Similar to my children, who show no remorse until they realize I am disappointed in their decision. I remember as a child, it wasn’t the punishment that I hated – it was the disappointment my parent’s had in my decisions. Adam and Eve were like that. I don’t know this, but I suspect, it wasn’t the punishment that caused them grief and sorrow – it was the fact that they knew they had broken a law. It took away their innocence, and because they felt sorrow, they had knowledge of joy. They were no longer like little children who do not understand the ramifications of sin – which is much more than just a punishment; it is also the disappointment of the very ones who love us most. If Adam and Eve were not like children, then they would have already understood sorrow, grief and pain, which in turn would have brought on the understanding of what is good. When I say like children, I don’t mean in the cognitive sense – I mean in the understanding sense. They did not understand sin and transgression, because they had never experienced it before. In never experiencing it before, they cannot understand all the ramifications that come from it. I don't accept a different interpretation of the Bible, then I don't accept this assumption. Christians base their thoughts on the BIBLE. I’m not asking you to believe what the Book of Mormon says. What I am saying is, the Bible doesn’t say and MS Christians have made assumptions. But, do they really KNOW Adam and Eve were not like little children? Even when you disregard the Book of Mormon, you cannot KNOW whether Adam and Eve were like little children or not. The Bible does not say. So you would have to allow the possibility of both. Maybe they were, maybe they weren’t. . . . LDS members obviously believe in the Book of Mormon and we believe they were. If you do not know whether or not Adam and Eve were innocent like children (and you can’t because the Bible does not say one way or another) then there is a possibility that they were, and in this case, there is a possibility that the Book of Mormon is not contradictory. You may not believe it, but you cannot say it CONTRADICTS – you can only say, you do not believe the information found there is true. Contradictions can only be claimed with information IN the Bible. If the Bible does not provide the information there is no contradiction there is only truth or lie. In my case, there is truth, in your case, you believe it is lie – but it is not contradiction. In regards to original sin: We believe we are born into this world BECAUSE Adam and Eve transgressed. We also believe we are born PERFECT (with no sin at all). However, we are human, and we will sin in our lives – which is why the Savior was sent. The war in heaven, Christ accepting God’s plan, the rest of us agreeing with God’s plan is found in the Pearl of Great Price. There is also so THE REVELATION
OF ST JOHN THE DIVINE CHAPTER 12 John sees the imminent apostasy of the Church—He also sees the war in heaven in the beginning when Satan was cast out—He sees the continuation of that war on earth. 1 aAnd there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a bwoman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with achild cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the athird part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a arod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the awoman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was awar in heaven: bMichael and his cangels fought against the dragon; and the ddragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in aheaven. 9 And the great dragon was acast out, that old serpent, called the bDevil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud avoice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and bstrength, and the kingdom of our God, and the cpower of his Christ: for the daccuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they aovercame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their btestimony; and they loved not their lives unto the cdeath. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he apersecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the adragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make bwar with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Of course, the verse I am talking about is verse 7 – but I wanted you to have it in context. I read the whole chapter  the “woman” being discussed is the Christ’s church (I don’t know if that is your belief or not). Described why EVE ate the fruit, and I agree. She ate the fruit because she wanted to be like God, and the fruit was desirable, and she gave into the devil’s trickery. But my question was why ADAM ate the fruit. I already explained why we believe Adam ate the fruit in the above post. | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:228
| | 06/13/2008 9:58 AM |
Alert | I am not sure what you wanted us to see by quoting Revelations 12. Here is the interpreation which seems obvious to me when I read it. What point did you want to make with v7? Michael is an angel and there are many more angels in heaven. Are you trying to use v7 to say that "we" are those angels? Sorry...the scriptures don't say that. Neither does this passage.
The Woman= Israel
Twelve stars=twelve tribed of Israel
God set apart of the Jews and that nation gave birth to a son who is the child=Jesus
dragon= Satan, who from teh beginning has tried to destroy God.
wilderness (v 6) where the woman (Israel) fled represents a place of spiritual refuge and protection from Satan. Since the woman, representing Israel, is God's special people, then it would make since that He would protect them. Just as God offeres us spiritual security as true believers.
v7- according to Daniel 12:1, Michael is a high ranking angel of which one of his responsibilities is to guard God's community of believers, so it makes since that He would be the one leading the charge to war against the dragon. Satan was defeated and there was no longer a place for them in heaven.
v9- Satan rules the earth and deceives the whole world. This is his domain...for a time. As Christ will return and defeat him on earth as well.
v10- a loud voice proclaims the defeat. This could be Michael...it doesn't say. Proclaiming God and Christ's power.
v13- the devil is ticked off. He has been thrown out of heaven and has no access to God. He is mad and takes it out on the woman (who is Israel) and to other believers.
v14- but again, God protects His people, who have spiritual refuge and protection.
and here is where Christians are. In the spiritual protection of God the Father. The devil has tried over and over again to defeat the woman (even now he still tries to best the Jews) but God protects them and he cannot do it.
v17- because Satan could not get the woman (Israel) he is now making war with Christians on eart...the war, while won in heaven, still goes on here on earth. The dragon daily battles to bring more toward him and keep others from Christ. God has not lost the war, but Christians must not lose the battle.
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| | JAG
Posts:455
| | 06/13/2008 10:49 AM |
Alert | Posted By love@hm on 06/13/2008 7:49 AM
Most mormons I know are very hardworking, and they tend to have large families. This would mean to me that they take the punishement of A&E quite serios, so do alot of faiths though, just seems more prevelant in the LDS community anymore.
I assume that you are talking about the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. We do take this commandment seriously, and I suppose it was part of the 'curse', but we don't look at it as something we are cursed to do because of Adam and Eve. It is more like we believe it is something we CAN do because of Adam and Eve.
W/o Adam and Eve eating the fruit, they could not have followed the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. We believe (although it is not found in the Bible) that Adam partook the fruit when Eve gave it to him because he understood in order to follow the greater commandment, he had to eat the fruit. Eve was going to be cast out. He ate the fruit in wisdom. The man was also to work and sweat as well. | | | |
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|  | love@hm
Posts:476
| | 06/13/2008 11:39 AM |
Alert | Yes, we are those angels.
Yes, the war still goes on around us.
Hmmm, I guess this would be important information for you to have: LDS members believe angels are spirit who have not been to earth, have been to earth and awaiting resurrection, or have been to earth and are resurrected. We believe they are literal spirit children of God - same as us.
We do not believe angels are an earlier creation and are different than human-beings.
Jag,
The LDS church does put a lot of stock in working hard, although I personally have never thought about that as being because of Adam. Although, the fact that we must till the ground, and labor, most definitely is because of the fall - I've just never thought of it as a curse. Part of our test, sure, but not a curse. . . | | | |
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| | JAG
Posts:455
| | 06/13/2008 11:50 AM |
Alert | See Gen 3:16-19. | | | |
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| | love@hm
Posts:476
| | 06/13/2008 11:55 AM |
Alert | | I meant a curse on Adam, the earth was made to not produce freely anymore, it was a consequence of the transgression. . . | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:228
| | 06/13/2008 1:20 PM |
Alert | LDS members believe angels are spirit who have not been to earth, have been to earth and awaiting resurrection, or have been to earth and are resurrected. We believe they are literal spirit children of God - same as us.
Can you use other Biblical scripture to support this? | | | |
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| | JCarp
Posts:39
| | 06/13/2008 1:26 PM |
Alert | itsadryheat: 06/12/2008 6:31 PM
Why does God need to repeat himself in this book when He has already stated in clearly in the Bible? Sorry if this may sound antagonistic, but I do not understand the need to repeat himself in another book.
Good question. Using that logic, why did God need to repeat himself 4 times in the Bible? Why did Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all have to cover Christ's ministry? One might say that they all covered different aspects of the ministry, which is true; but how about when all of these Disciples covered the same event. Should we just study Matthew's version of it since his book is first? Or maybe John's, since he was beloved of Christ? Or we could use the NWT method and just strike out any verse that contains repeat information.
What if Peter had written a version of Christ's ministry as well, that parallels (some of the same events, and some new information that has never been shared before) the four gospels in the Bible. And it is discovered next week in some ancient Christian Church in Syria. Should Christians use that document to better understand the teachings of Christ? Or should Christians immediately condone it as contradictory since apparently God didn’t want it in the Bible when it was originally assembled? | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:228
| | 06/13/2008 2:02 PM |
Alert | Well, I don't think we would immediately jump on the bandwagon if a letter of Paul's suddenly appeared. it would be put to the test historically, doctrinely etc...AND this if proven to be written by who says wrote it and found to be accurate in all its details it MIGHT be added to the Bible. Over the years, people have said to have found lost books...all of which have not be proven nor have they been added.
I guess when looking at the gospels, some people might be drawn to Matthews account because they might be interested in the perspective of a Jewish tax collector, turned Christian. Or Mark, not one of the 12 disciples, but someone who was with Paul on his first missionary journey and who wrote this account in Rome to the Christians in Rome. Why would this be important, because Rome was the place to be during Jesus times; the information super highway, so to speak. So it would have spread like wild fire there...among non-Jews. What about Luke? Luke was a medical doctor, so his account takes into consideration those details that a scientist might find useful- check out his account of the crucifixication and the care towards those medical details. John- his book proves conclusively that Jesus is the Son of God and that all who believe in him will have eternal life. So those who are seeking after assurance of who Jesus was might be interested in his account.
All of this to say is that these 4 books have been proven to have been written by who wrote them, occurred in the time they occurred...etc... The Book of Mormon has no such foundational basis. | | | |
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| | qwerty
Posts:135
| | 06/13/2008 4:38 PM |
Alert | Back for a quick flyby...lol
All of this to say is that these 4 books have been proven to have been written by who wrote them, occurred in the time they occurred...etc... The Book of Mormon has no such foundational basis.
You keeping referring back to the fact that the Book of Mormon has NO archaelogical evidence...again dealing with absolutes. If you do some research, there have been some archaelogical finds that are in support of the Book of Mormon.
Several articles can be found here: ://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/bookofmormonview.php?subcat=100&cat=1
Of course this is a byu website, so I'm sure you will discount it's authenticity right away...;-)..sorry, couldn't resist.
Just thought I would through this link in for those who are interested. One of the more interesting articles deals with a city called Nahom. This is a recent discovery from a dig where an inscription was translated containing the name Nahom. This name is directly referenced in the Book of Mormon as one of the cities traveled to by Lehi's family (1 Nephi 16:34).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if there were more concrete archelogical evidence, I am still very doubtful that some on this thread would accept the Book of Mormon, so I'm not sure why archaelogy keeps being brought up. | | | |
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| | itsadryheat
Posts:228
| | 06/13/2008 5:33 PM |
Alert | Of course this is a byu website, so I'm sure you will discount it's authenticity right away...;-)..sorry, couldn't resist.
Touche'!  | | | |
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