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| | Author | Messages | |
cactus flower
Posts:212
 | | 09/30/2007 12:24 PM |
 Alert | | I was never a fan of writing as a form of punishment. But because the kiddos have experienced the lunch room jumble I bet their voice will really come through with this writing assignment. This could be a good thing for writing-something most don't like to do-because they have nothing to say. | | | |
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| | Sp.ed.Tchr
Posts:142
| | 09/30/2007 1:56 PM |
Alert | <div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By maricopaswimcoach on 09/30/2007 11:24 AM
Sp.Ed.Techr, sory about the misunderstanding. I agree with you completely. BTW, on a side note, I don't think anyone in education works harder than resource teachers. Kudos to you for what you do with children. You, and all sp. ed. teachers should to be sainted. </div>
Swimcoach- I appreciate the kudos. You don't know how many days I have kicked myself and wondered why I do what I do instead of having a regular classroom. Then there are other days when I see what is happening in regular classrooms and am thankful that I teach resource instead.
I commend you for the work you are doing here in Maricopa. I know it can't be easy being a part of the "growing pains". But it will certainly be worth it when you can look back and see how far the schools have come. | | | |
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| | leefamily
Posts:0
| | 10/03/2007 8:50 AM |
Alert | Can I just say my two cents?
I think it was a fantastic punishment. If a ton of kids are misbehaving, punish all of them. Who is to say that the ones who are good that particular day won't be bad the next. It teaches them to mind their manners.
Personally, I think parents are waaaay to PC with their kids (i have three, so I can say this).
I'm 30 and things have changed sooooooooooooooooo much from when I was in elementary school. We used to get spanked for goodness sakes!
Quit complaining about an essay. You should be happy that your child has to take responsibility for the whole group. How else are we going to teach leadership? And, how else is the school supposed to get the parents involved? You can't tell me each and every parent didn't have a talk with their child about this - the offenders and the 'innocents'. Right???? It was very smart on the schools' part to do that - IMO
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| | CyndiWitczak
Posts:217
| | 10/03/2007 10:05 AM |
Alert | | This wasn't the first essay. This was the 3rd or 4th. They also had to sit in silence for 3 days at lunch, clean the playground all three days (yes, there are the toads in Tortosa because they have found several), and get detention. My daughter wasn't part of the problem, however, she acknowledges that noise WAS a problem. My issue was, and still is, that if the same punishment isn't working, maybe they need to do something else. I did go to the school on Monday, and I did talk to the teachers and the assistant principal. I am marginally in agreement for what they did in regards to some of the punishment, but I still don't believe you can micro-manage elementary school kids. They have done several essays. It wasn't working. Now some of the kids may view their next writing assignment as drudgery because they now hate writing. I will be joining them for lunch much more often than I did before this. I am not even remotely PC, but when you try something and it doesn't work, you try something else. It is my understanding that many kids' parents called into the school or sent notes that their children didn't have to do this. Are they exempt from all school rules and punishments? I hope these aren't the same kids that were causing the problem to begin with, though it may not be a surprise. The parents of the bullies are usually the ones in the office yelling at the staff. We are all no more or less than a product of our environments, and very rarely do apples fall far from their trees. | |
Yes, that's really my name | |
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| | demonica
Posts:850
| | 10/03/2007 11:05 AM |
Alert | | i know this is gonna piss you off cindy, and that is not my intent, i just think this is important for parents to think about. you state more than once that you know your child was not part of the problem. well, how many parents of 5th graders are saying the same thing? i would be willing to bet almost all the parents think that their little darlings couldn't be part of the problem and are therefore being punished unjustly. you even go on to say that it is usually the parents of the bullies that are in the office raising the biggest stink. sorry if i offended, but i think it's an important thing to think about. | | | |
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| | leefamily
Posts:0
| | 10/03/2007 11:20 AM |
Alert | <div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By demonica on 10/03/2007 11:05 AM
i know this is gonna piss you off cindy, and that is not my intent, i just think this is important for parents to think about. you state more than once that you know your child was not part of the problem. well, how many parents of 5th graders are saying the same thing? i would be willing to bet almost all the parents think that their little darlings couldn't be part of the problem and are therefore being punished unjustly. you even go on to say that it is usually the parents of the bullies that are in the office raising the biggest stink. sorry if i offended, but i think it's an important thing to think about.</div>
I agree completely. If it happened to my daughter, and she was 'innocent' which I wouldn't believe, I think it would at least teach her a very valuable lesson! | | | |
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|  | Digger
Posts:63
| | 10/03/2007 12:07 PM |
Alert | Where does the line get drawn for students who commit infractions and everyone getting punshied for it?
So far I've heard if a incident occurs everyone should get some form of punishment.
What happens if a fight breaks out? Should all be punished?
If another gang related incident occurs should everyone get punished?
It seems the punishment fits the crime for those involved but not for those who aren't part of the infraction. Can this form of education have negative effects on the innocent?
Can we apply this same form of punishment on the community? If someone breaks into a house should all be punished?
I know I'm going over the top here but I'm doing it to stress a point.
This form of punishiment is used in basic training... when the group as a whole gets punished for the faults of a few eventually the group retaliates against the original offenders.
Is that what we want? | | | |
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| | Java Lover
Posts:0
| | 10/03/2007 12:14 PM |
Alert | When are they going to teach personal responsibility? Hold parents and kids accountable for their actions? If I screw up then I should be punished, but that's not what they are doing. I don't go for the group thing all the time. I can speak from personal experience, I got so tired of my kids getting punished for things that they did not do. If my kid deserves punishment then so be it, but when I hear from a teacher that no my kid wasn't involved but that everyone is suffering the consequences that pisses me off.
Elementary parents get use to it cause unless things change that's the way it is at the middle school here too. That in part is why my kids no longer go to MUSD. | | | |
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| | CyndiWitczak
Posts:217
| | 10/03/2007 1:20 PM |
Alert | | I am not offended in the least. I can understand your point, however, I know my daughter wasn't involved because I know my children extremely well. We have met people in Maricopa that I am sure would concur. If she had been involved, she would have told me. The number one rule in our house is honesty, no matter what. To boot, she is a terrible liar. Is she apt to talk in line? Absolutely. Is she likely to talk loud during lunch? I have no doubt. Is she yelling, screaming, and throwing food? No punishment the school could dole out could come near what she would get at home, so no. This wasn't the first time the whole grade was punished. It isn't likely to be the last either. She didn't even SEE the foodfight that supposedly happened. According to the school, they couldn't pick out who did it, so everyone was punished. This isn't about my child, per se, it's about the policy of punishing the masses for the doings of a few, over and over and apparently over again. | |
Yes, that's really my name | |
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| | LeonPotter
Posts:508
| | 10/03/2007 2:26 PM |
Alert | I asked my son about this when he arrived from school today.(He didn't say anything about it before.) He didn't seem to have an issue with it. He was curious how I found out.lol He said he did the writing during recess and part of the school day. He didn't seem phased.
I just asked him why everyone had to write. He said because the talking was too loud. He said they can talk, but it was too loud. I asked him if he was one of the "culprits." He did say he was talking, but not loud. He then offered this to me; " I understand why." I asked him what he understood. He said "Because the teachers couldn't tell who was talking loud, so they had everyone write." I asked him if he was okay with that. He said he was.
He asked me again how I found out. I told him that I had my sources. Then he said "oh, 85239." We both laughed. | |
My answer is "NO" to Q#5 and Q#1.
Proverbs 22:7
The rich ruleth over the poor and the borrower is servant to the lender. | |
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| | justcurious
Posts:77
| | 10/03/2007 2:44 PM |
Alert | Leon,
Smart young man you're raising there. Kudos to the open communication. Sounds like the message was delivered well by the staff to the kids it affected. | | | |
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| | LeonPotter
Posts:508
| | 10/03/2007 4:27 PM |
Alert | <div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By justcurious on 10/03/2007 2:44 PM
Leon,
Smart young man you're raising there. Kudos to the open communication. Sounds like the message was delivered well by the staff to the kids it affected.</div>
Thank you. He is a good kid. I told him that I was proud of him. I meant for him not being phased one way or the other. He just did what he was asked to do and it was over.
I wasn't sure how to feel that he didn't tell me about it himself. But, I guess he truly did understand and wasn't bothered by it. Today,he acted like it was no big deal and that it was ancient history.
I don't know for sure if he was involved or not, I wasn't there. Although it was news to me, I'm glad he understood the big picture and took it in stride. | |
My answer is "NO" to Q#5 and Q#1.
Proverbs 22:7
The rich ruleth over the poor and the borrower is servant to the lender. | |
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| | CyndiWitczak
Posts:217
| | 10/04/2007 9:30 AM |
Alert | Ok, please quit emailing me.. I am not a mouthpiece for disgruntled parents. If you have an issue, go to the school like I did.
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Yes, that's really my name | |
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| | CyndiWitczak
Posts:217
| | 10/04/2007 9:35 AM |
Alert | | Justcurious, the assignment was given Friday afternoon to be done over the weekend. It was turned in Monday morning. The kids that were writing at recess and finishing it during classes were the kids that for whatever reason didn't do it at all. There were many of them. More saving their hide than taking it in stride. | |
Yes, that's really my name | |
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| | LeonPotter
Posts:508
| | 10/04/2007 10:35 AM |
Alert | <div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By CyndiWitczak on 10/04/2007 9:35 AM
Justcurious, the assignment was given Friday afternoon to be done over the weekend. It was turned in Monday morning. The kids that were writing at recess and finishing it during classes were the kids that for whatever reason didn't do it at all. There were many of them. More saving their hide than taking it in stride.</div>
If you read my post "taking it in stride", you could see I was refering to my son understanding why everyone had to write. Now did you want me to be upset because he didn't do it over the weekend?
I guess the weekend was more important than recess. What's done is done. | |
My answer is "NO" to Q#5 and Q#1.
Proverbs 22:7
The rich ruleth over the poor and the borrower is servant to the lender. | |
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| | justcurious
Posts:77
| | 10/04/2007 12:52 PM |
Alert | Cyndi,
Sounds to me like the school followed through, those who did not accomplish it on the weekend still had to write and missed recess until it was completed. As for your quote, "More saving their hide than taking it in stride.", you have no idea what goes on in other individual homes on the weekends. The school followed through and hopefully the results will be positive and the kids that were not behaving will begin to behave better in the cafeteria. | | | |
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| | The Family Guy
Posts:69
| | 10/04/2007 8:14 PM |
Alert | I have a fifth grader at Santa Cruz and after just reading this I asked him about it. He told me what was going on in the cafeteria and it sounds like just a few kids were REALLY out of control, standing on the chairs, throwing food, etc. I am sure that many were louder than they should be and I certainly can understand how the teachers in charge can get frustrated. My son did not have a problem with the essay assignment. I told him that I didnt either. I think it is a positive way to teach the kids about life. HOWEVER, losing recess for an entire week and spending that time having to pick up the garbage on the school grounds is certainly not the way to teach these kids. This is what you do to punish those that ARE out of control, not the entire 5th grade student body!!! The Essay is a positive means for teaching while picking up garbage for something that you did not do is not sending a good message.
The kids that are the culprits need to be punished for what they did, not everyone. Writing an essay is allowing him to take something which seems negative and use it as a way to learn. What motivation does my child have to behave himself when he knows that everyone will be punished the same for the actions of a few. This is not the military and it is not a Football team. This is my child's education. In sports, the emphasis is on the team concept, if one player is not giving his/her all, the whole team pays the price. My son is not a part of a team at school. He is graded on his individual performance as a student and should be treated as such.
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| | Devil Dog
Posts:411
| | 10/05/2007 1:03 AM |
Alert | | Is this a problem in all the schools in Maricopa? | |
"Always Moving Forward" | |
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| | DesertNewbie
Posts:531
| | 10/05/2007 6:38 AM |
Alert | Posted By Devil Dog on 10/05/2007 1:03 AM
Is this a problem in all the schools in Maricopa?
No. | | | |
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| | CyndiWitczak
Posts:217
| | 10/05/2007 7:40 AM |
Alert | Ok, just to clarify a few things for those who don't know the entire story. My issue is not with the discipline of the kids. If they do something wrong, they deserve it. My issue is, and has continued to be, the number of times they are ALL punished for the actions of a few. For clarification, here it is:
1st offense: the entire 5th grade had to run sprints outside.
2nd offense: the entire 5th grade had to write the entire school rules 3 times and then write an apology to the teachers for their behavior.
3rd offense: the entire 5th grade had to write a 3-4 page letter about how they think the behavior could be fixed, their suggestions for discipline, and what they thought of the situation. On top of this, they had to sit in silence all week at lunch (I'll get to that later), and do 3 days of community service by cleaning trash off the playground.
If you have a 5th grader and you didn't know all of this was happening, now you do. The school should have at some point let the parents know there was a problem. I have NO issue with the punishments themselves, but guess what? It isn't working. If you have to punish and entire group over and over, it isn't working. How many kids wrote the rules 3 times? How many didn't, and didn't tell their parents either? Many of the kids didn't write the second essay and had to miss a recess of community service to finish it. Is that punishment? How many parents wrote notes excusing their kids from the punishment? Many. Not only did that send the message to the kids that their parents can tell them what rules they do and don't have to follow, but it also planted a seed in some kids that no matter what, their parents will bail them out. To top it off, yesterday the lunch room was noisy when they are supposed to be eating in silence and kids are STILL yelling and screaming. I have NEVER been angry at a school for discipline. Kids need it. They don't need to be punished over and over for the acts of a few.
I am sending an email to the principal and the assistant asking that they get parents involved. I hope I won't be the only one. Kids should go to school knowing how be behave, and the school can't teach to its ability if it has to spend all of its time and effort policing the behavior of kids who don't care.
I will be at lunch again today enjoying a lovely turkey bologna sandwich. I hope some of you can join me. | |
Yes, that's really my name | |
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