Godfather
Posts:10
 | | 09/28/2007 10:02 PM |
 Alert | | My child came home today to inform me that all of the 5th grade classes have to write a 6 page essay, because all of the 5th graders are loud and out of control during lunch while they are eating. On top of this, they lose their recess for the entire week as well. My child and her friends were sitting quietly eating lunch while other kids are screaming and throwing food across the room. Why can't these teachers control the kids? My child is always getting privileges taken away and she well behaved. They should punish the disruptive kids and not the good ones. This sends the wrong message and the disruptive kids do not care that the whole class has to suffer. The teachers should write a 6 page essay on how to control their kids! | | | |
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Marni
Posts:497
| | 09/28/2007 10:28 PM |
Alert | You know what they say, "A few bad apples, ruin the whole bunch."
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Vote NO on Prop 102 | |
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sterlingdreams925
Posts:296
| | 09/28/2007 10:28 PM |
Alert | | That's not right! I have never heard anything like that before... parents need to call the school & protest! | | | |
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pissedparent
Posts:268
| | 09/28/2007 10:38 PM |
Alert | Let me explain something to you as you obviously have never been on the miltary. When 80% of the troops get out of line and a few of the drill sargents finally get them on task again the punishment of "20 push-ups" is shares by ALL the privates. Are you picking up what I'm laying down?
I'm thrilled that YOUR kid is perfect and my 5th grader assures me he too had nothing to do with the "Santa Cruz mehle of 2007" (yeah right) but he too will write his paper and I told him if he is so mad at his "friends" that cause the trouble a little arse kicking after school to keep them in line won't hurt them a bit. | | | |
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Godfather
Posts:10
| | 09/28/2007 11:05 PM |
Alert | <div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By pissedparent on 09/28/2007 10:38 PM
Let me explain something to you as you obviously have never been on the miltary. When 80% of the troops get out of line and a few of the drill sargents finally get them on task again the punishment of "20 push-ups" is shares by ALL the privates. Are you picking up what I'm laying down?
I'm thrilled that YOUR kid is perfect and my 5th grader assures me he too had nothing to do with the "Santa Cruz mehle of 2007" (yeah right) but he too will write his paper and I told him if he is so mad at his "friends" that cause the trouble a little arse kicking after school to keep them in line won't hurt them a bit. </div>
I never said that my child is perfect, and I was raised by military parents so yes I know how it works but this is elementary school not the military. My point was that this method is obviously not working with the children. This is barely the first semester and my child has had numerous punishments while her behavior is good. The good kids who know how to act are starting to get the attitude "Well, if we're going to be punished anyway, then why should we behave?" This is not doing anyone any good taking away bathroom breaks and recess. If kids can't talk during their lunch break, then when are they to unwind? It's no wonder they have so much energy bundled up that they act like wild animals. | | | |
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BlahBlahBlah
Posts:0
| | 09/28/2007 11:17 PM |
Alert | I guess my question to you would be: have you taken the time to go in during your child's lunch break to see what is actually taking place in the lunchroom that is getting the entire 5th grade in trouble? If you have done so, then you would know that the 5th grade teachers are not in the cafeteria at all while their students are eating. They themselves are eating lunch while their students are being monitored by other teachers. I would imagine that these 5th grade teachers do have control of their kids when they are with them in their classrooms.
Perhaps some parents should write a 6 page essay about getting two sides of a story. If in doubt, call the teacher for clarification. I live by this golden rule myself!
Good luck! <img src='http://www.85239.com/desktopmodules/ntforums/images/emoticons/smile.gif' height='20' width='20' border='0' title='Smile' align='absmiddle'> | | | |
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maricopaswimcoach
Posts:23
| | 09/28/2007 11:25 PM |
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Godfather
Posts:10
| | 09/28/2007 11:40 PM |
Alert | BlahBlahBlah, just to clarify, I am talking about the teachers/staff on LUNCH duty only. Of course the teachers eating lunch on their breaks have nothing to do with this, how could they?
maricopaswimcoach, you are exactly right, my child is already putting a lot of time and care into this essay and does take it very seriously, regardless of the circumstances. Thank you for the advice, I definitely plan on following through with this on Monday. | | | |
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DesertNewbie
Posts:531
| | 09/29/2007 7:33 AM |
Alert | The essay part, I think is great. Great to see teachers offering up something that challenges the mind and promotes improvement of writing skills.
The recess loss is probably a bit harsh.
Perhaps it would have been better to say everyone had to write the essay and those who actually do it in a timely fashion won't lose recess, but those who refuse the essay, will. | | | |
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ruthannhogue
Posts:7
| | 09/29/2007 9:35 AM |
Alert | Writing an essay is not punishment. It is probably being used as a tool to get students to stop and think about what they are doing, and to force parental involvement.
Now, what I'd love to see is to have students who are out of line being put on cleanup duty after school if they do not behave during lunch. They should have to clean up all of the trash and wipe down tables or something of this nature. Trust me, kids will get the message.
I have tried this with high school age students who could not seem to behave themselves in class. At my request, Security at the school put them on a list for cleanup duty during after-school detention. They were not allowed on the bus ride home unless they showed up to detention and served their duty. If they skipped detention, they were escalated to in-school suspension, and so on.
This was something I have rarely had to put into practice. You do it once for one class, and everyone from then on knows you are serious about classroom (or lunchroom) behavior expectations.
Just my 2 cents ...
P.S. To those of you who have sweet children who do not disrupt, this would also benefit YOUR child. Sometimes the only way to restore or achieve order is to cause everyone to participate in whatever needs to be done, such as assigning an essay to the entire fifth grade. If your child is treated in the end to a more orderly lunch period, everyone wins. Those who are enforcing discipline need to get control of a situation to be fair to the good kids, as much as they do to discipline those who are causing disruption. To let it continue unchecked would be a disservice to all.
I hope that makes sense...
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twostep23
Posts:1687
| | 09/29/2007 9:53 AM |
Alert | The best part of all is this is that it's starting to teach them at a young age of group discipline. It happens all the time in the big bad world.
Think about it. How many benefits/luxuries have been taken away from you at work because one or two people can't use it the way that it was intended to be. Or lost something because people just didn't take care of it. Or if something broke and wasn't replace because of vandalism or neglect. Same concept.
They've got to learn that this is a way of life and if you want it to stop then you have to speak up to the people that are causing it and tell them to stop. | |
Senior Member
Posts: 4625
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maricopaswimcoach
Posts:23
| | 09/29/2007 9:05 PM |
Alert | | If you want to support a punishment that research has shown doesn't work feel free to. The difference here is that these kids cn't quit their class or transfer to another one. They also can't get fired for doing something wrong. I only hope that the teachers have at least connected the paper to the state standards. There a re quite a few writing standards that need to be met in the fifth grade and it does not sound like this punishment fits into any of them. I would be curious to know what the topic hey had to write on was. | | | |
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Sp.ed.Tchr
Posts:142
| | 09/29/2007 10:42 PM |
Alert | Swimcoach,
Here is the standard that an ESSAY, whether for punishment or not, would fit under, as well as numerous others that I have not posted...
Writing Standard Articulated by Grade Level
Grade 5
Strand 3: Writing Applications
Concept 2: Expository
Expository writing includes nonfiction writing that describes, explains, informs, or summarizes ideas and content. The writing supports a thesis based on research, observation, and/or experience.
PO 3. Write in a variety of expository forms (e.g., essay, summary, newspaper article, reflective paper, log, journal). | | | |
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Sp.ed.Tchr
Posts:142
| | 09/29/2007 10:55 PM |
Alert | As far as punishing the entire grade - it's done more than you probably know. Why? PEER PRESSURE. Those that already do good and those that misbehave, but don't like to be punished will hopefully attempt to influence the behavior of the rest. With a majority of students behaving as they should, it is easy to pinpoint and punish those that are misbehaving.
The essay probably goes beyond the typical punishment, but maybe nothing else has worked thus far. As far as talking to their friends - save it for recess. Sorry, but I have been that "Cafeteria Duty Teacher". It is an unpleasant experience. It's even more unpleasant when there's 100+ students that are out of control - yelling at someone across the room, throwing food at the kid in front of them, getting out of their seats to do whatever they feel like. It is a DANGEROUS situation. There needs to be some control. If the students aren't complying, then they should be punished. Immediate punishment such as loss of recess is usually effective. If there are more kids misbehaving than not, it is hard to sort out who should or should not be punished, thus the punishment for all. | | | |
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maricopaswimcoach
Posts:23
| | 09/30/2007 6:43 AM |
Alert | | Sp.ed.Tchr. I am a fifth grade teacher and know the articulated language arts standards. What I want to know is whether or not the students have even been taught what an expository essay is yet. Normally,that is not the first type of writing that is taught. Assuming that it has in fact already been taught is it goingto be grade onthe six traits and then returned and corrected or have the studnet sbeen given a task that is pointless. I also know that this type of punishment is used very often. That doesn't mena it's right. It means that the rules for proper lunch time behavior were not put into place. I am one of those lunch time teahcers and know exactly what you are talking about. | | | |
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CyndiWitczak
Posts:217
| | 09/30/2007 8:30 AM |
Alert | | I don't know what happened Friday, only what our daughter told us. I will be eating a cheeseburger on Monday in an attempt to find out what the heck is happening there. I think if this was the first time, I wouldn't have a problem with the assignment, but it isn't. My daughter is just as likely to talk in line as anyone else is. Last week they had to do an essay and write the school rules 3 times. Could the fact that they have recess BEFORE lunch be a reason? Are these kids that are continuing to cause problems even doing these other essays? My daughter said it's the same kids. There are a lot of unanswered questions my husband and I have, but be assured there will be answers found on Monday. One punishment, I understand. Two, I am getting skeptical. Is the third, fourth, fifth and sixth going to make a difference? Are these kids' parents aware of any of this? You can't micro-manage fifth graders. Anyone willing to join me for lunch? | |
Yes, that's really my name | |
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Sp.ed.Tchr
Posts:142
| | 09/30/2007 9:25 AM |
Alert | Posted By maricopaswimcoach on 09/30/2007 6:43 AM
Sp.ed.Tchr. I am a fifth grade teacher and know the articulated language arts standards. What I want to know is whether or not the students have even been taught what an expository essay is yet. Normally,that is not the first type of writing that is taught. Assuming that it has in fact already been taught is it goingto be grade onthe six traits and then returned and corrected or have the studnet sbeen given a task that is pointless. I also know that this type of punishment is used very often. That doesn't mena it's right. It means that the rules for proper lunch time behavior were not put into place. I am one of those lunch time teahcers and know exactly what you are talking about.
The same EXACT standard is also a 4th grade standard. Ideally they would have had exposure to it there. I posted the standard because your original post made it sound like writing an essay is NOT a standard, ("There a re quite a few writing standards that need to be met in the fifth grade and it does not sound like this punishment fits into any of them.") which is different than what you are saying here. As one of those lunch teachers, you would also know that it doesn't matter that rules are put into place if the students are choosing not to follow them. I honestly don't think that the essay is going to fix this problem. Mostly because I doubt that as you stated, they will not be corrected and returned. I also don't agree that writing should be used as a form of punishment because it discourages kids from writing - in this case they would hate every time they had to write essays. Essays are used as part of college applications and job applications.
If recess is BEFORE lunch, it is very difficult to take away that privilege. Our school tried it for one year before deciding that it was more chaotic when the kids came back to the classroom and we switched back. I don't know who the lunch duty teacher is in this case or what they have already tried. Is the principal or assistant principal in the cafeteria at this time? Is there one or more than one duty teacher? Have classroom teachers been asked to eat with their students? Have the students that have been caught not following the rules been assigned different seats?
There's much more that could be done than assigning an essay...
GOOD FOR YOU, Cyndi! I hope you have several parents joining you for lunch. | | | |
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Godfather
Posts:10
| | 09/30/2007 10:50 AM |
Alert | | My daughter just finished the essay, it was actually supposed to be 3-4 pages, she misunderstood and thought it was to be written front and back on all three pages. No wonder it was so upsetting to her. The topic was "How to be an Effective 5th Grader at Santa Cruz Elementary School". I am all for strict discipline, and the first time this happened I thought, good, I'm glad they're cracking down and enforcing rules. I even gave her the "a few bad apples" lecture, and told her that's just the way life is sometimes. But, being the second time in such a short period tells me that it isn't working and I think taking away recess for the entire week was a little harsh. I think that is a GREAT idea about sitting in for lunch and I will do the same. | | | |
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Bionicbunny
Posts:586
| | 09/30/2007 11:20 AM |
Alert | | My goodness, what is wrong with the luch aides taking the offenders out of the lunch room one by one and lining them up in front of the principals office. They get after school detention and their names are now down on record. How many offences does it take for a suspension? 3 sounds good. Just enforce the rules! | | | |
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maricopaswimcoach
Posts:23
| | 09/30/2007 11:24 AM |
Alert | | Sp.Ed.Techr, sory about the misunderstanding. I agree with you completely. BTW, on a side note, I don't think anyone in education works harder than resource teachers. Kudos to you for what you do with children. You, and all sp. ed. teachers should to be sainted. | | | |
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