NEZv2.1
Posts:0
 | | 09/12/2007 12:09 PM |
 Alert | | BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA | | | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/12/2007 12:16 PM |
Alert | I think what he does not take into account is reaction time and also the distance at a given speed that it takes to stop.
Right, that's why I've never had an accident and always have more than enough room to stop. It's called leaving more distance the faster you go. Works wonders for higher speeds. | |
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maricopacabana
Posts:338
| | 09/12/2007 1:28 PM |
Alert | | But that doesn't take into consideration how others are to react to your presence on the road. There is legal doctrine that stipulates a driver has the right to assume you are obeying the law. What this means when making judgements the baseline is the assumption you are driving the posted speed. Decisions are made based on that speed. If a driver is driving in excess of that speed guess what? Accidents happen. | | | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/12/2007 1:56 PM |
Alert | | . | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/12/2007 1:56 PM |
Alert | Posted By maricopacabana on 09/12/2007 1:28 PM
But that doesn't take into consideration how others are to react to your presence on the road. There is legal doctrine that stipulates a driver has the right to assume you are obeying the law. What this means when making judgements the baseline is the assumption you are driving the posted speed. Decisions are made based on that speed. If a driver is driving in excess of that speed guess what? Accidents happen.
No, I'm sorry, drivers do not have the right assume I'm driving the speed limit. Any driver could have a mechanical failure, medical problem, etc. that puts the situation beyond the control of the driver. Drivers must always estimate the speed of the traffic they are interacting with and they may never assume that it is flowing at the speed limit.
I'll provide an example. Let's say I'm traveling 60 MPH on 347 around the curve where Maricopa Rd meets. Let's say that a driver runs the stop sign. The fact that I'm traveling above the posted limit (only waste of finite resources, not speed in excess of reasonable and prudent) is not an affirmative defense to the driver running the stop sign.
I'll say it again: Drivers should never, ever assume that the traffic around them will follow the law. They should always drive defensively and in preparation of someone breaking the law.
Drivers are supposed to be intelligent and critical thinkers. What idiot would assume most traffic is going the posted 55 MPH when it is dead obvious that almost none of it is? | |
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alanf
Posts:1459
| | 09/12/2007 2:03 PM |
Alert | | Now how is law enforcement going to prevent a 70 year old woman from driving out of Casa Blnca Rd in front of traffic??? Nothing to do with speed or aggressive driving. An older lady made a tactical mistake and is now dead. So everybody just quit tooting your all-knowing knowledge horns and find something productive to do!!! | | | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/12/2007 2:03 PM |
Alert | And here is why:
28-794. Drivers to exercise due care
Notwithstanding the provisions of this chapter every driver of a vehicle shall:
1. Exercise due care to avoid colliding with any pedestrian on any roadway.
2. Give warning by sounding the horn when necessary.
3. Exercise proper precaution on observing a child or a confused or incapacitated person on a roadway. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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maricopacabana
Posts:338
| | 09/12/2007 2:11 PM |
Alert | <div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By Jason on 09/12/2007 2:03 PM
And here is why:
<div class='NTForums_Quote'> 28-794. Drivers to exercise due care
Notwithstanding the provisions of this chapter every driver of a vehicle shall:
1. Exercise due care to avoid colliding with any pedestrian on any roadway.
2. Give warning by sounding the horn when necessary.
3. Exercise proper precaution on observing a child or a confused or incapacitated person on a roadway. </div></div>
You need to read http://www.myazbar.org/SecComm/Committees/CIJI/raji4.cfm
This is the Revised Arizona Jury Instruction. This is what jurors must use when deciding civil cases. Pay attention to the Negligence chapter pg 49.
NEGLIGENCE INSTRUCTIONS
(January 2005) 49
NEGLIGENCE 4
Assume Laws Obeyed
(Duty to Observe)
A driver is entitled to assume that another motorist will proceed in a lawful manner and
obey the laws of the road—unless it should become apparent to that driver, acting as a
reasonably careful person, that the other motorist is not going to obey the laws of the road.
All drivers have a continuing duty to make that degree of observation that a reasonably
careful person would make under similar circumstances.
So if I am making a turn and you are behind a lead vehicle which appears to be traveling at the posted limit I can make the assumption you are doing the same. By the time it will be apparent that you are driving negligently it will be too late. | | | |
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GilaGuy
Posts:789
| | 09/12/2007 2:16 PM |
Alert | <div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By sysadmin on 09/12/2007 12:02 PM
It sounds like Jason knows more then the trained professionals that set the speed limits. </div>
By and large, speed limits are set by acts of legislative fiat, not by trained professionals.
Anyone who believes that any of our elected officials are experts in anything has probably been drinking. ;-) | | | |
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maricopacabana
Posts:338
| | 09/12/2007 2:18 PM |
Alert | <div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By GilaGuy on 09/12/2007 2:16 PM
<div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By sysadmin on 09/12/2007 12:02 PM
It sounds like Jason knows more then the trained professionals that set the speed limits. </div>
By and large, speed limits are set by acts of legislative fiat, not by trained professionals.
Anyone who believes that any of our elected officials are experts in anything has probably been drinking. ;-)</div>
Apparently some of our elcted officials are real good at that!! | | | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/12/2007 2:21 PM |
Alert | unless it should become apparent to that driver, acting as a
reasonably careful person, that the other motorist is not going to obey the laws of the road.
That's what I'm talking about. You cannot just assume other drivers are acting under the law.
So if I am making a turn and you are behind a lead vehicle which appears to be traveling at the posted limit I can make the assumption you are doing the same. By the time it will be apparent that you are driving negligently it will be too late.
Obviously. But if you see me and fail to estimate my speed before turning out. I should not be at fault, unless my speed was recklessly excessive. But then, I don't make maneuvers like you suggest here, so again, I'm a safe driver, even though I exceed the posted limit. Because I only exceed it when it is safe to do so. | |
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alanf
Posts:1459
| | 09/12/2007 2:23 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 09/12/2007 2:21 PM unless it should become apparent to that driver, acting as a
reasonably careful person, that the other motorist is not going to obey the laws of the road. That's what I'm talking about. You cannot just assume other drivers are acting under the law. So if I am making a turn and you are behind a lead vehicle which appears to be traveling at the posted limit I can make the assumption you are doing the same. By the time it will be apparent that you are driving negligently it will be too late. Obviously. But if you see me and fail to estimate my speed before turning out. I should not be at fault, unless my speed was recklessly excessive. But then, I don't make maneuvers like you suggest here, so again, I'm a safe driver, even though I exceed the posted limit. Because I only exceed it when it is safe to do so.
Don't you mean that you only do it when YOU feel it is safe to do so Jason?  | | | |
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matmo
Posts:88
| | 09/12/2007 2:29 PM |
Alert | <div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By Jason on 09/12/2007 2:21 PM
<div class='NTForums_Quote'> <i>Because I only exceed it when it is safe to do so.</i></div>
try using that excuss when you get pulled over for speeding....but officer...It was safe to do so, | |
amatman
Senior Member
Posts: 5398
Joined: Oct 2006
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/12/2007 2:30 PM |
Alert | try using that excuss when you get pulled over for speeding....but officer...It was safe to do so,
You know, that's funny. I have talked to an MPD officer about their "zero tolerance" and they said that they do in fact give leeway to motorists. | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/12/2007 2:33 PM |
Alert | Don't you mean that you only do it when YOU feel it is safe to do so Jason?
Thank you Captain Obvious. Every driver selects a speed they feel that is safe to them. They choose to turn or not turn based what they feel is safe to them. Driving is all about doing what the driver judges to be safe at the time and place of judgment. | |
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alanf
Posts:1459
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alanf
Posts:1459
| | 09/12/2007 6:38 PM |
Alert | | And whene everybody decides what is safe for themselves...well it's the Wild Wild West...Yee Haa | | | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/12/2007 6:46 PM |
Alert | | So when it starts pouring rain you still drive the speed limit? When blowing dust obscures all but the car in front of you, you still drive the speed limit? If you don't you are....drumroll please.....selecting a speed that you judge to be reasonable. It's not anarchy, it's not the Wild Wild West, it's intelligence and reason. Nothing about my "pronouncements" has been incorrect. | |
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DesertDweller
Posts:2548
| | 09/12/2007 9:08 PM |
Alert | <div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By alanf on 09/12/2007 2:03 PM
Now how is law enforcement going to prevent a 70 year old woman from driving out of Casa Blnca Rd in front of traffic??? Nothing to do with speed or aggressive driving. An older lady made a tactical mistake and is now dead. So everybody just quit tooting your all-knowing knowledge horns and find something productive to do!!! </div>
If this had been the first post, and had people read it, it would have saved a whole lot of keystrokes. | |
Stupid should hurt!
Desert Dweller - Senior Member - Posts: 2982 - Joined: Feb 2006 | |
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Lano
Posts:274
| | 09/12/2007 9:38 PM |
Alert | <div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By DesertDweller on 09/12/2007 9:08 PM
<div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By alanf on 09/12/2007 2:03 PM
Now how is law enforcement going to prevent a 70 year old woman from driving out of Casa Blnca Rd in front of traffic??? Nothing to do with speed or aggressive driving. An older lady made a tactical mistake and is now dead. So everybody just quit tooting your all-knowing knowledge horns and find something productive to do!!! </div>
If this had been the first post, and had people read it, it would have saved a whole lot of keystrokes.</div>
You're asking the wrong question...why does a 70 year woman old or anyone for that matter, have to make a tactical decision about crossing a 2 lane highway with cars going 65-75mph in both directions? This scenerio will always be a recipe for disaster. | | | |
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