 |
Business Directory |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Coupons |
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
Classifieds |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
| | Author | Messages | |
Tempter
Posts:41
 | | 11/17/2007 8:17 AM |
 Alert | Gila again you mislead. Your position has been since the topic was started that silence equals guilt. Mr Estes came on and explained his position and again he was attacked by you. You and others like you continue convicting someone based on something you read in a news article.
Especially coming from someone who has in the past had to retract her articles.
These charges will fade away like the others. | | | |
|
| | GilaGuy
Posts:789
| | 11/17/2007 3:02 PM |
Alert | Posted By Tempter on 11/17/2007 8:17 AM
Gila again you mislead. Your position has been since the topic was started that silence equals guilt. Mr Estes came on and explained his position and again he was attacked by you. You and others like you continue convicting someone based on something you read in a news article.
Especially coming from someone who has in the past had to retract her articles.
These charges will fade away like the others.
There is no misleading here. Silence equalled "more to the story." Then the Councilman came forth, explained his side, and confirmed his culpability. At that point, the silence became moot as it was overpowered by the sheer force of his own words. I did not ever attack Mister Estes, I attacked what were clearly some hotheated actions on the part of an elected official who had the audacity to flash city credentials during the act. The fact that those actions took place is no longer in question, Mister Estes has confirmed them himself. To suggest that one may admit questionable actions and then expect silence instead of outrage is silly, and I think you know that. You are grasping at straws here.
This may have been started by the news article, but it was furthered by Estes' own admission. If you feel it is perfectly okay to flash a badge and city ID to someone while in the midst of a completely unnecessary argument, then by all means continue defending those actions. Make it even easier to see where your ethical boundaries lie. | | | |
|
| | kenmoreguy72
Posts:223
| | 11/17/2007 3:30 PM |
Alert | Luv the Copa......
I couldn't agree more with your 1st 2 statements in this thread! | | | |
|
| | Tempter
Posts:41
| | 11/17/2007 4:43 PM |
Alert | Taking an incident where a Dentist acted like an idiot and making it a one man show is weak at best. The thought of a city offical using a badge or a title to influence a situation is hardly grounds for an indictment. This happens everywhere and with every official ever known to man. If you think otherwise you are nieve. Is it right? We'll no, but it is a frequent occurance.
The incident with the dentist probably would have went further had it been a normal everyday citizen. Having said that everyone has a moments they wish would have never happened. Blowing things out of proportion does make your argument any better. I'll just keep my file open for your constaint complaints about everything under the sun.
Just to make a point this and other topics are about someone else and not Estes. I figured you might need a reminder. | | | |
|
| | MaytagMan
Posts:43
| | 11/17/2007 5:05 PM |
Alert | | Please remember this thread is about the Tempter. Please grant him his 15 minutes. | | | |
|
| | GilaGuy
Posts:789
| | 11/18/2007 3:49 AM |
Alert | Posted By Tempter on 11/17/2007 4:43 PM
Taking an incident where a Dentist acted like an idiot and making it a one man show is weak at best. The thought of a city offical using a badge or a title to influence a situation is hardly grounds for an indictment. This happens everywhere and with every official ever known to man. If you think otherwise you are nieve. Is it right? We'll no, but it is a frequent occurance.
The incident with the dentist probably would have went further had it been a normal everyday citizen. Having said that everyone has a moments they wish would have never happened.
By Estes' own admission, there was never any misbehavior on the part of the dentist. Being a pedestrian crossing in front of a vehicle is typical parking lot behavior. Questioning someone about their driving in a parking lot is also fairly typical. Even stopping one's car to holler at someone else is not completely unheard of. Telling someone that the police chief works for him and flashing a badge is atypical. And improper.
I am glad that you support something that by your own statement is wrong. If you can live with that, more power to you. I personally would prefer that my elected officials behave themselves while in public. If they can't do so, then for goodness sake, at the very least leave the city out of it. Once you flash that badge, you are now acting on behalf of the citizens of the city you represent. Anything up to that point is done on private time. But once you drag the rest of us into it, we are instantly granted right to complain about it. And frankly, that is how it should be.
Despite your belief that "every official known to man" has pulled this stunt, I've never heard of this going on with another Councilman in town. Perhaps with your intimate knowledge of City Hall you could provide other examples to help spread this outrage around?
I agree with you that most folks have moments that they wish they could take back. I think that any reasonable individual can understand that sometimes things blow up and mistakes are made. The public at large is remarkably forgiving -- towards those who seek forgiveness. For those whose sense of entitlement leads them to believe that this is normal behavior and not something to be ashamed of, a different sentiment comes to mind. | | | |
|
|  | Wkelleher
Posts:1
| | 11/18/2007 9:57 AM |
Alert | I have been following the conversation about Roger Kolman and the article that was written by Kathy Hall. There is one aspect of this situation which no one seems to have considered. What the City Manager is accused of doing is entering into a conspiracy to humiliate and degrade a colleague in public while he was doing the peoples business. City Staff members and the Council are doing the peoples business. If a City Manager gets up in front of the Council to discuss an important issue how is he, or she, to know they have not been targeted by the City Manager or one or two of the Council members for this type of treatment? How can a member of the City Staff rest assured that the questions they are being asked are sincere and not part of some calculated plan to make them appear incompetent?
If what has been alleged is true it is clearly an assault on the open meeting law and the public’s right to know. Can you imagine what opportunities there are in this to silence anyone who has a regulatory function on City Staff say for example, the Planning Department, Public Works, the Fire Department or the Police Department?
I am not attributing blame to anyone in this instance. I only know what has appeared in the press. This is an extremely serious matter. What is most troubling is that only one councilman has seen fit to comment on this. Municipal employees and elected officials who, in affect, are accused of subverting open meeting laws in this State do not have the option of remaining silent. They must respond to the accusations. If this issue is not resolved by the council and Mr. Kolman it is clearly something for the Attorney General to look into.
| | | |
|
| | OutRider
Posts:89
| | 11/18/2007 11:13 AM |
Alert | Chief Kelleher,
The citizens of Maricopa thank you for having the fortitude to speak up in this matter. It takes great courage and conviction to voice your opinion in such a public forum.
For those who think this is another case of a disgruntled employee making statements please consider the fact that the Chief started serving the public before Mr. Kolman was even born and has proven himself to be a thoughtful, diligent public servant who has never been an alarmist.
| | | |
|
| | DesertDweller
Posts:2569
| | 11/18/2007 12:44 PM |
Alert | Chief Kelleher is one of the most experienced and one of the most respected city officials in Maricopa. As someone who works for the city, it takes much more courage to speak out than if he were an ordinary citizen. The fact that he has speaks volumes about his character and about the seriousness of the issue.
As I said, this needs to be a top priority on the next council agenda. | |
Stupid should hurt!
Desert Dweller - Senior Member - Posts: 2982 - Joined: Feb 2006 | |
|
| | TheSmokingGun
Posts:0
| | 11/18/2007 2:57 PM |
Alert | Yes, we should recognize the fire chief for standing up. Given the media policy the city has in place, it will be more interesting to see if he is reprimanded for his post. The policy, as I understand it, does in fact state that employees can no longer post on the forum. While there are others, this is the main forum in town and the senior leadership of the city knows that. It was an effort to silence staff or dare I say particular staff such as Chief Kelleher?
I had a lot of residents walk into my business over the past week and express their frustrations about the operation of this city. The council, however, will do nothing. My question, is why? Why are they afraid to investigate? Are they afraid they will have to take action? I saw the statement from Chief Melvin and frankly, it reeks of cover up. I can understand why he caved and said what he said: he just wants to do his job. The council more than likely said, "Chief, we support you and you're doing a good job."
It's time for other staff to speak up. But then again, what protections exist for them? To me, it's a lose-lose situation. It's also another reason why, as a business owner, I am going to refrain from growing my business here until I see how the new coucil acts. | | | |
|
| | GilaGuy
Posts:789
| | 11/18/2007 3:32 PM |
Alert | Posted By Wkelleher on 11/18/2007 9:57 AM
What the City Manager is accused of doing is entering into a conspiracy to humiliate and degrade a colleague in public while he was doing the peoples business.
This is a very important point, and I think the Chief makes it well. There is a difference between something being said in the privacy of one's own home, and something being said while on the people's time. At the risk of sounding like a telegram from Chairman Mao, the people are the ones who elect and fund the city leadership, and those who serve the people simply must keep that in mind. That notion has seemed lacking to certain members of our current leadership team.
I have had the pleasure of meeting Chief Kelleher on a number of occasions, and his love for this city is matched only by his professionalism. The fact that he has picked up on this undercurrent only lends further credence to the belief that something is amiss in City Hall. | | | |
|
| | gilbertglcn
Posts:228
| | 11/19/2007 2:11 PM |
Alert | When a governmental entity, any governmental entity, creates policies that aim to discourage communication between staff and the public, then you know that entity is trying to hide things. It does not matter if these things are minor in nature, major in nature, unimportant, or irrelevant. The fact is that any government must be transparent to the people. Otherwise you end with a tyrannical government. The City uses the excuse that this is not the proper forum for such discussions, and therefore a policy and procedure are necessary. Since it is the people that use this and other forums, it is not up to the City to determine the validity of any forum, but rather that is up to the public. The only illegitimate forum would be one whereby the people did not participate. By continuing to squelch the few voices that attempt to speak up, the City is only doing itself a disservice.
It is time that the City government responds to the people, and not use silence as a safety net. As Thomas Jefferson stated; "When the government fears the People, that is Liberty. When the People fear the Government, that is tyranny." If the City continues down the path they have created for themselves, we will have a tyrannical city we must live in and with. It is up to us to demand that the Council do what they were elected to do, or they are participants in that tyranny. Continued silence from the City, shows that for most of the leadership, they are not interested in the liberties of the citizens of Maricopa. Fine, then it is up to us to take our Liberty back and show the Council and the city leadership the correct path to travel on. | | | |
|
| | MaytagMan
Posts:43
| | 11/20/2007 11:50 AM |
Alert | | Where has the Tempter been? Has he decided to say "Roger,Over?" Maybe too many Chiefs not enough Indians? | | | |
|
| | gilbertglcn
Posts:228
| | 11/21/2007 12:17 PM |
Alert | So during last night's council meeting, Mayor Anderson applaud's the Interim City Manager's performance on the job, and the City Council joins in. They applaud racism, sexism, incompetence and a hostile work environment. Election time will tell who the voters applaud.
The Council can remain ingorant, and refuse to see the truth, but remember, the truth is out there.
Martin Luther King, Jr.:
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
| | | |
|
| | DesertDweller
Posts:2569
| | 11/21/2007 2:30 PM |
Alert | | I have a feeling that so much stuff has transpired that the council couldn't go after a senior city staff member if they wanted too. They know too much. | |
Stupid should hurt!
Desert Dweller - Senior Member - Posts: 2982 - Joined: Feb 2006 | |
|
| |
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.6 |
|
|
|