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| | Author | Messages | |
CliffinAZ
Posts:451
 | | 01/18/2008 9:30 AM |
 Alert | | BTW Tempter, we're not all "trolls" who criticize no matter what someone does, just when someone like yourself implies in so many ways that we are wrong/unrealistic in expecting high standards of accountability and integrity from our leaders. If you want to see how folks on this forum respond to a leader who does demonstrate that level of integrity through actions, see the thread about Kelly Haddad (also under politics). | | | |
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| | Tempter
Posts:41
| | 01/18/2008 11:30 AM |
Alert | In no way have I said that it is unrealistic or wrong to expect high standards of accountability and integrity from leaders of this community. (Please don't mislead those reading this)
I simply said that the degree of transparency you seek is unrealistic. Most things should be transparent and somethings cannot be for confidentiality reasons. That's the purpose of Executive sessions.
When you put people into positions (council seat for example) and those people also live and have lived in the community for a long time, it is unrealistic to think they will not have connections to other business leaders. Sometimes those connections benefit the community and at other times create the illusion of impropriety.
Does that mean in every case a person should recuse themselves of participating or voting on certain issues? In some cases yes and in some cases no...
It's not always a black and white issue...
This is my last post on this topic as I have clearly stated my case... | | | |
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| | Tempter
Posts:41
| | 01/18/2008 11:31 AM |
Alert | | Double Post | | | |
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| | DesertDweller
Posts:2569
| | 01/18/2008 11:45 AM |
Alert | Wow. You did a great job of stating your case and I, for one, agree with you completely. If only we could get to the standard of conduct that you talk about I would be happy.
Of course the pioneers of our community have a vested and real interest in property here. They should be cautious, as should anyone, that any conflicts are declared, disclosed, and remedied. Nothing beyond that. There are issues that are none of anyone's business, i.e., personnel issues and some other business dealings. So be it. We trust that those conducting that business do so in the best interest of the City.
As far as transparency, that's a word that's been bantered about a lot lately but it's not the real issue. Trust is the issue. Because of the several and sequential conflicts of interest and violations of trust that have occurred, public trust has eroded. Transparency helps build trust but it's not the only element. If there is an "illusion" of impropriety, it needs to be examined and either discarded as an illusion or acted upon as the real thing. That's where the failure has occurred.
Again, Tempter, everything you've said is your last post is absolutely correct. | |
Stupid should hurt!
Desert Dweller - Senior Member - Posts: 2982 - Joined: Feb 2006 | |
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| | CliffinAZ
Posts:451
| | 01/18/2008 12:44 PM |
Alert | Tempter, you make some good points here, and I think if you had started with this we all would have had a very different discussion. DD, I agree; maybe I overuse the word "transparency" in discussing something that's actually a larger concept. I think that a lot of it really does come down to how appearances of improprietry (real or not real) are responded to, and how the rationale behind some decisions is communicated or not communicated.
Also, in case it wasn't clear from my earlier posts, I do not expect that every council member will disclose every one of his/her business dealings, particularly when they have nothing to do with council decisions/actions--in that case it's really none of mine or anybody else's business. It's when there's at least an appearance that the two are tied together that we get into trouble. I think in that case that sweeping things under the rug can only hurt the situation (even if, in reality, there wasn't an impropriety at all). | | | |
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| | Tempter
Posts:41
| | 01/18/2008 2:04 PM |
Alert | ok I lied, I can't resist...DD the problem I see is that this town has grown rapidly. The business dealings from early on are what created this town. Those dealings of course were self serving. Partnerships and business dealings could only develop from those hand shake deals, and backroom discussions. That's how things got done. Many of the people involved in that liitle town from a few years ago are key leaders today. I don't fault them for some of the mistakes, we just need to learn and move on. With Kevin Evans joining on tuesday we'll take another step as a community.
I honestly believe everyone has learned from past mistakes! | | | |
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|  | CliffinAZ
Posts:451
| | 01/18/2008 3:11 PM |
Alert | | This also makes a lot of sense; this historical aspect of the local government is admittedly new to many of us who came from cities that had been established for many years. Not that those governments don't have their own problems, but they're often of a different nature. In NYC, a lot of the problems had to do with a bloated bureaucracy, and the things that could be hidden within it. | | | |
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| | GilaGuy
Posts:789
| | 01/18/2008 5:05 PM |
Alert | Posted By Tempter on 01/18/2008 2:04 PM
I don't fault them for some of the mistakes, we just need to learn and move on.
Tempter, though I never thought I'd say it, your last two posts have made a lot of sense and I agree with almost all of what you've said.
With the exception of the above portion, however. There is a difference between people's mistakes, and people's intentional acts of impropriety. The mistake that Kelly Haddad recently made and owned up to didn't amount to much because he came right out, admitted what it was, and made no attempts to hide or distort it. That sort of thing is therefore easily understandable by the rest of us.
But then we have things like a councilman allegedly pushing a development that he was affiliated with while at a convention on city time, or getting into an altercation with a citizen, or claiming to be the boss of the Police Chief, so on and so forth. Those are different scenarios because they display a pattern of unethical behavior which, for a time, seemed all too common. Which in turn, as DD said, led to the decline in public trust.
I join you in your hope that with a new stellar member of City leadership we will be on to bigger and better, and things of that nature will not repeat themselves. | | | |
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